Alysa Liu Ready for Change (NEW ARTICLES)

VGThuy

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This is one the pettiest things I’ve seen and I’ve seen plenty of petty things. It really does sound like you’re just picking a fight and choosing not to read words that are actually written.

Alyssa left about 8-10 points on the in the LP. She was highly competitive. Tony was clearly responding to people who said Scali was “delusional” when clearly he knew a lot more than the people on this forum who have not been watching Liu train at all.
 
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hanca

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This is one the pettiest things I’ve seen and I’ve seen plenty of petty things. It really does sound like you’re just picking a fight and choosing not to read words that are actually written.

Alyssa left about 8-10 points on the in the LP. She was highly competitive. Tony was clearly responding to people who said Scali was “delusional” when clearly he knew a lot more than the people on this forum who have not been watching Liu train at all.
But I do think Scali was delusional. I am really sorry for having a different opinion than a group of her fans, but the girl we were watching a year ago looked like she would be fighting for a medal at worlds as soon as she becomes senior eligible. The girl we saw this year, she looks like she would be lucky to be around tenth place at worlds. But she wouldn’t be even sent to worlds (if she was eligible and if the world was not dealing with pandemic) because country has max 3 spots. I mean, you guys can try to portray a very optimistic picture of her current level of skating, but she skating like this will not make her competitive at senior level internationally. Well, maybe she would be competitive in some B competitions, but I don’t think that’s what she was aiming for.
 

tony

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But I do think Scali was delusional. I am really sorry for having a different opinion than a group of her fans, but the girl we were watching a year ago looked like she would be fighting for a medal at worlds as soon as she becomes senior eligible. The girl we saw this year, she looks like she would be lucky to be around tenth place at worlds. But she wouldn’t be even sent to worlds (if she was eligible and if the world was not dealing with *********) because country has max 3 spots. I mean, you guys can try to portray a very optimistic picture of her current level of skating, but she skating like this will not make her competitive at senior level internationally. Well, maybe she would be competitive in some B competitions, but I don’t think that’s what she was aiming for.
You're kind of all over the place here. First, the US only has two spots anyways. Second, you were not a mind-reader, and regardless of what you thought, none of us had any idea how Alysa would show up to Nationals except for those who saw her daily training. Based on Scali's comments, he was more right than wrong IMO and he's the one that saw her every day, as has been pointed out. She put herself right in the mix after a clean short, and errors took her out of it but she wouldn't have been that far off if she had a clean skate. Did you know she wasn't going to skate clean? No. Did you know Mariah Bell was going to drop all the way to 5th? No. Did you know Bradie Tennell was going to keep it all together? No.

Would you have preferred a coach who sees a skater landing all the triples throughout Lutz in practice and greatly improving other aspects of her skating to say anything else? Why would he think anything else? US ladies aren't the most consistent, after all.

Just like I addressed regarding my own comment, Scali never said she would win.
 
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VGThuy

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But I do think Scali was delusional. I am really sorry for having a different opinion than a group of her fans, but the girl we were watching a year ago looked like she would be fighting for a medal at worlds as soon as she becomes senior eligible. The girl we saw this year, she looks like she would be lucky to be around tenth place at worlds. But she wouldn’t be even sent to worlds (if she was eligible and if the world was not dealing with *********) because country has max 3 spots. I mean, you guys can try to portray a very optimistic picture of her current level of skating, but she skating like this will not make her competitive at senior level internationally. Well, maybe she would be competitive in some B competitions, but I don’t think that’s what she was aiming for.
This post does not comport with reality. Had she done all 7 triples with two double axels which was her best case scenario presented in pre-nationals press, she would have been comfortably second and sent to Worlds if she was age eligible. If Bradie had skated in a different way as she is capable of doing (see Nationals 2019 and 2020), she could have easily lost Nationals to Liu doing that. As for your other comments about senior B competitions. It’s a huge exaggeration and if we were to be as harsh to the other American women, then it’s true for them as well. Nobody thinks any of the American women will medal at Worlds without help from major mistakes and we mean major from multiple skaters ahead of them on paper. So given that’s her competition at Nationals, it wasn’t far-fetched to think she had a fighting chance at a medal. Calling Scali “delusional” was harsh, unwarranted, and quite frankly flat out wrong. She actually almost won. Delusional is thinking Liu who was extremely struggling, wasn’t doing clean run throughs with 7 triples and 2 double axels and skating in a way that would make her lucky to place in the top 15 at nationals could win. Before nationals, people were acting like he was “delusional” to think Liu could beat Mariah Bell. Look at what happened.
 

Lemonade20

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I think Alysa looked a lot better without her pre-rotated quads and skid to a halt triple axel. She was faster, she covered more ice, and she had better skating skills this year. Now it looks like she’s competing at the same sport as the other women, and I was really impressed with her improvement! When I read that her coach said she could win without a triple axel or quads, I thought that was either hype or delusional— but although she didn’t win this competition, I can actually see why he said that. It looks to me like she’s playing the long game now, rather than the one hit wonder career trajectory. I’m glad for her because the US isn’t as competitive in tech as Russia or Japan, and Alysa could actually have time to develop her talent, maybe even regain her harder jumps with improved strength and speed. I finally saw her potential at this competition.
I agree with you, she's playing the long game and I like the direction she's headed in. It may not have gotten her a higher finish, but next year, watch out!
 

hanca

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This post does not comport with reality. Had she done all 7 triples with two double axels which was her best case scenario presented in pre-nationals press, she would have been comfortably second and sent to Worlds if she was age eligible. If Bradie had skated in a different way as she is capable of doing (see Nationals 2019 and 2020), she could have easily lost Nationals to Liu doing that. As for your other comments about senior B competitions. It’s a huge exaggeration and if we were to be as harsh to the other American women, then it’s true for them as well. Nobody thinks any of the American women will medal at Worlds without help from major mistakes and we mean major from multiple skaters ahead of them on paper. So given that’s her competition at Nationals, it wasn’t far-fetched to think she had a fighting chance at a medal. Calling Scali “delusional” was harsh, unwarranted, and quite frankly flat out wrong. She actually almost won. Delusional is thinking Liu who was extremely struggling, wasn’t doing clean run throughs with 7 triples and 2 double axels and skating in a way that would make her lucky to place in the top 15 at nationals could win. Before nationals, people were acting like he was “delusional” to think Liu could beat Mariah Bell. Look at what happened.
Sure, and if Gracie Gold has done FS with seven triples and a clean SP with 3Lz-3T and 3F, she would also got a medal. That doesn’t mean that Gracie (or Liu) is capable of actually skating such program. Even if the commentators were saying how Gracie’s goal is the Olympics, and even if Liu actually ‘intended’ to skate all 7 triples with two double axels. Everyone intends to do well, but intending something and being capable to do something, that’s two different things. I was really looking forward to seeing her skating, after watching her last year. But for me, she is nothing special any more and she seems to be on downward path. We will see what happens in the future, but I don’t expect much from her next season.
 

VGThuy

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The difference was Liu was capable of doing it. Her only mistake was one jumping pass. Watch Gold’s skate and watch Liu and tell me they had the same probability of hitting their planned content. You’re just arguing for the sake of arguing. Fine, you don’t like her. You don’t have to, but you aren’t seeing the reality of the situation that happened this weekend. You’re letting your bias blind you. Most people admitted they were wrong about her demise because they watched the competition and realized Liu had control over her triples and had competitive nerves to hit. She wasn’t this over-exaggerated mess who was struggling to hit doubles. Her scores show she would have been comfortably in second and had Tennell’s jumps been called more harshly, who knows what could have happened. Even without that, Tennell most likely would have won but she wouldn’t have run away with the title.
 

Sylvia

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I was really looking forward to seeing her skating, after watching her last year. But for me, she is nothing special any more and she seems to be on downward path.
You are not alone in your opinion but I think she has improved in aspects of her skating (beyond the jumps) and I am proud of Alysa for putting in the hard work.
We will see what happens in the future, but I don’t expect much from her next season.
Probably better that way. :D
 

hanca

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You are not alone in your opinion but I think she has improved in aspects of her skating (beyond the jumps) and I am proud of Alysa for putting in the hard work.

Probably better that way. :D
She still has a nice spring in her jumps, coming from knees. Soft knees. But she will need more than that to beat all those quad ladies (Russian and Japanese) that are coming though.
 

aka_gerbil

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I agree with you, she's playing the long game and I like the direction she's headed in. It may not have gotten her a higher finish, but next year, watch out!

I think so too. I think she does not want to have a short Russian ladies style career. I think she’s going for longevity and being a well-rounded, complete skater. She has a good team behind her and a good head on her shoulders.

Her body has changed, YNW has impacted everyone. I’m not ready to write her off forever and declare she’ll never have her 3A or quads back. T/M made a remark in one of their post-Russian nationals interviews that they took a step back last season but then took two steps forward. Maybe that is what this season is for Alysa. She’s clearly put in a lot of work in basic skating skills and performance, and if she wants longevity, that will pay off. If she has those skills and gets her jumps back, in the end, that will put her ahead. Maybe not for next season or against this particular batch of Russian ladies, but maybe in the end.

I was actually skeptical about her until now, but seeing the improvements in basics and performance has turned me into a fan.
 

hanca

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The difference was Liu was capable of doing it. Her only mistake was one jumping pass. Watch Gold’s skate and watch Liu and tell me they had the same probability of hitting their planned content. You’re just arguing for the sake of arguing. Fine, you don’t like her. You don’t have to, but you aren’t seeing the reality of the situation that happened this weekend. You’re letting your bias blind you. Most people admitted they were wrong about her demise because they watched the competition and realized Liu had control over her triples and had competitive nerves to hit. She wasn’t this over-exaggerated mess who was struggling to hit doubles. Her scores show she would have been comfortably in second and had Tennell’s jumps been called more harshly, who knows what could have happened. Even without that, Tennell most likely would have won but she wouldn’t have run away with the title.
That’s not true. That’s a very frequent contra argument on this forum when someone says something people don’t like. Or it could be also calling that person a hater. In reality, last season I loved Liu’s FS and disliked her SP, but I admired her skating (no matter whether I liked the program or not, I felt she was great). This year, the things that I found exceptional are gone. Which is my personal opinion. You may admire different things and for you she may be brilliant now, but for me she is just ‘ok’ now. So when someone forecasts how great she will do (and then she doesn’t fulfil that expectations), of course I think they might be delusional. But I have no reason to hate her and I have no reason to write things just to cause an argument. You may have to accept that people like and value different things.
 

VGThuy

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This isn’t about liking or disliking. I’m not even a fan of hers. I just saw the scores and her performances, looked at base values, and it’s clear it’s not “delusional” to think she could have won Nats. That’s it. Not would have won but with her material and base value and ability to deliver, could have. Multiple skaters could have won. Delusional is a very heavy word and has roots in mental illness, btw. And the reason I said it seems you’re arguing for the sake of arguing is that you keep changing the argument, ignoring things, put words in people’s mouths, and aren’t very consistent with what you’re arguing. You just seem to want to argue.
 

mjb52

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I feel like people keep talking about the Russian ladies as though it's somehow a failing in their training or skill level that their careers are short. It's not. It's an astonishing over-supply of insanely high talent. It's not like these skaters couldn't keep competing, it's that it is literally a bloodbath to make the world team. They are largely (with some exceptions) keeping their skills up, but then new skaters come up with a level of skill so high that they can't beat them. If there were 20-30 novice skaters doing triple axels and quads behind Alysa, yeah, she would be facing a tough situation in terms of building a long career.
 

Natanielle825

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I heard Alysa is planning to retire after 2022 whether she makes the team or not, so maybe not in it for the long game at all. I think she has as much a chance as any of the top US girls to make the Olympic team, and as little a chance as any of the top US girls to make the Olympic podium.
 

hanca

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This isn’t about liking or disliking. I’m not even a fan of hers. I just saw the scores and her performances, looked at base values, and it’s clear it’s not “delusional” to think she could have won Nats. That’s it. Not would have won but with her material and base value and ability to deliver, could have. Multiple skaters could have won. Delusional is a very heavy word and has roots in mental illness, btw. And the reason I said it seems you’re arguing for the sake of arguing is that you keep changing the argument, ignoring things, put words in people’s mouths, and aren’t very consistent with what you’re arguing. You just seem to want to argue.
You accused me that I am arguing for the sake or arguing. So I am explaining that no, I don’t like the level of her current skating. So for you it may not be about liking and disliking, but for me criticising her, at has everything to do with liking and disliking what she has done on the ice.
 

aka_gerbil

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Russian ladies are good technicians, but as someone whose favorite discipline is ice dance, I put very high value on skating skills and mastering the things that happen when blade meets the ice. These are skills that take years to develop fully develop, and the Russian careers tend to end well before that point. I also think a lot of the Russian ladies and their quads are largely due to technique relying on a pre-pubescent body. When your technique relies on that, it makes it hard to keep those skills to have a long career.

I also still make the same argument as Stephan Lambiel—if PCS was getting scored correctly, the quads wouldn’t be determining everything right now.
 

hanca

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Russian ladies are good technicians, but as someone whose favorite discipline is ice dance, I put very high value on skating skills and mastering the things that happen when blade meets the ice. These are skills that take years to develop fully develop, and the Russian careers tend to end well before that point. I also think a lot of the Russian ladies and their quads are largely due to technique relying on a pre-pubescent body. When your technique relies on that, it makes it hard to keep those skills to have a long career.

I also still make the same argument as Stephan Lambiel—if PCS was getting scored correctly, the quads wouldn’t be determining everything right now.
I am sure Tuktamysheva looks really prepubescent. She has been doing 3A with her current body for a few years, and she posted link with a decent quad.
As for Valieva, Scherbakova and Trusova, we may have to wait for a few years before we can say definitely, whether they will keep their quads. Do you want to bet a bottle of champagne that at least some of them will be able to do quads post-puberty? I am happy to wait for a few years...
 

Natanielle825

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As for Valieva, Scherbakova and Trusova, we may have to wait for a few years before we can say definitely, whether they will keep their quads. Do you want to bet a bottle of champagne that at least some of them will be able to do quads post-puberty? I am happy to wait for a few years...
I agree, we really don't know how long the quads will last since they're the first ones doing them.
 

aka_gerbil

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I don’t bet ever on anything . ;P

Liza has good technique. She has learned one quad that she has yet to try/land in competition. I’m less convinced on the others and how well their technique will hold up.
 

Tinami Amori

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Russian ladies are good technicians, but as someone whose favorite discipline is ice dance, I put very high value on skating skills and mastering the things that happen when blade meets the ice. These are skills that take years to develop fully develop, and the Russian careers tend to end well before that point. I also think a lot of the Russian ladies and their quads are largely due to technique relying on a pre-pubescent body. When your technique relies on that, it makes it hard to keep those skills to have a long career.

I also still make the same argument as Stephan Lambiel—if PCS was getting scored correctly, the quads wouldn’t be determining everything right now.
But Ladies/Men singles ARE NOT Ice Dance.... ;) Shcherbakova and Trusova are "post pubescent". Trusova went through "it" back at Khrystalny 2 seasons ago, and had to change costumes because they became too small (she grew 10 cm). Shcherbakova went through "it" last year and was mentioning getting taller. And (at present junior) Maya Khromikh's body can hardly be called "pre-pubescent" and she has a quad... :).
 

aka_gerbil

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No, singles isn’t ice dance, but it’s still skating and things like strong basic skills, etc should still matter. If you get to a point where a lot of ladies skaters have quads, then in theory, having strong basics should be an advantage.

Also, I personally enjoy watching the skaters with strong and developed basics more than the jumping beans. I prefer to see the older skaters because of that :p

I do think Alena K has great basics and she’s one I enjoy watching. I’d just love to see what those looked like at 24, although it sounds like she has other big life goals she wants to pursue other than skating.
 

hanca

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I don’t bet ever on anything . ;P

Liza has good technique. She has learned one quad that she has yet to try/land in competition. I’m less convinced on the others and how well their technique will hold up.
Mirai Nagasu learned her triple axel in her twenties, without having prepubescent body. Imagine what she could be able to do if she started to work on 3A and quads at the same age as the current crop of quad ladies.
 

Polaris

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Russian ladies are good technicians, but as someone whose favorite discipline is ice dance, I put very high value on skating skills and mastering the things that happen when blade meets the ice. These are skills that take years to develop fully develop, and the Russian careers tend to end well before that point.

Kostornaia.

Edit: Oops, just saw you mentioned her after.
 

hanca

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But Ladies/Men singles ARE NOT Ice Dance.... ;) Shcherbakova and Trusova are "post pubescent". Trusova went through "it" back at Khrystalny 2 seasons ago, and had to change costumes because they became too small (she grew 10 cm). Shcherbakova went through "it" last year and was mentioning getting taller. And (at present junior) Maya Khromikh's body can hardly be called "pre-pubescent" and she has a quad... :).
Let’s wait for another year or two before we know definitely that their physical changes are completed. Some female skaters are changing only around the age of 17. Zagitova’s body also changed only about a year after Olympics. I do think Scherbakova and Trusova’s body will still change a bit, that’s natural, but I don’t think they will lose all their quads. When it was Mao Asada, it was easy to claim that it is the body size. Nagasu and Tuktamysheva are harder to dismiss - in their case it wasn’t about having prepubescent body shape. In a few years time we will have bigger sample and then people will hopefully stop believing that a skater must lose their quads.
 

hanca

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I don’t bet ever on anything . ;P

Liza has good technique. She has learned one quad that she has yet to try/land in competition. I’m less convinced on the others and how well their technique will hold up.
Because you know you will lose! :p
You know that at least some of them will retain their quads (otherwise Tutberidze would be unhappy and they may not survive.).:lynch::lynch::lynch:
 

hanca

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Oh, Mirai started thinking about that jump just as early as those skaters.

She was thinking about it and probably trying from time to time, but she didn’t need it to win, and therefore she didn’t push it the same way as she pushed learning her triples (and the same way as the current Russian and Japanese ladies push the quads). It is a completely different approach to do it every training because you know you will need it if you want to win, in comparison with Mirai trying it occasionally when she had time, perhaps in the off seasons when she didn’t have to prepare for any competition...
 

Tinami Amori

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I do think Alena K has great basics and she’s one I enjoy watching. I’d just love to see what those looked like at 24, although it sounds like she has other big life goals she wants to pursue other than skating.
At 24, people who plan to have a prosperous and an interesting life, are graduating from Graduate Schools at the Universities..... :).
 

bardtoob

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She was thinking about it and probably trying from time to time, but she didn’t need it to win, and therefore she didn’t push it the same way as she pushed learning her triples (and the same way as the current Russian and Japanese ladies push the quads). It is a completely different approach to do it every training because you know you will need it if you want to win, in comparison with Mirai trying it occasionally when she had time, perhaps in the off seasons when she didn’t have to prepare for any competition...

I agree.

I also do think Mirai actually needed it in competition in 2018 because she was not going to be selected for the Olympic team unless she had literally overwhelming technical content. Remember that this was when she was on the skating world's 💩 list because she did not become the next Michelle Kwan after placing 4th at the 2010 Olympics. Of course, we don't think of that now because she resoundingly rewrote the end of the story of her own skating career with hard work and got her share of the team Olympic bronze and what not.
 
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