2022-23 Pairs General Discussion - You Get a GP! You Get a GP! All of You Get a GP!

[Baby Yoda On Skates]

New pairs are still in development though. Lots of older teams retired and lots of skaters lost opportunities due to the pandemic. If we are still seeing doubles as the norm in 2026, maybe there's an issue, but right now let's let the teams develop.

 

[trainingdogs82]

Meagan Duhamel isn't happy about the worldwide trend of double jumps and throws...

https://twitter.com/mhjd_85/status/1619527499201015810

I mean she is right. I get it is a post Olympic year, lots of turnover and retirements, maybe more than usual. Plus the Russian ban. But the teams in the early to mid 80s were doing harder throws and other elements than nearly all the top teams this year, minus the top 2. That is crazy.

 

[VGThuy]

I think the real problem is the state of pairs skating generally…as in will there be a big enough pool for it to be a viable sport outside of countries with autocratic regimes that can force sporting federations to develop it and have an environment where people will go into it out of desperation.

 

[moebius]

I was just talking about this exact topic with my friend from the boards here about 10 minutes ago. It was very noticeable for me tonight. Is she specifically targeting USA pairs. The link is not opening for me

No need to. The Chinese and Russians aren't competing so the rest of the world don't need to up their game. They can take it easy with the absence of the Russians and Chinese teams. The K/F can enjoy the easy ride to the worlds podium as long as the Russians and Chinese aren't competing. Once the Russians and Chinese teams come back, they can kiss the Worlds podium buh bye.

 

[Karen-W]

No need to. The Chinese and Russians aren't competing so the rest of the world don't need to up their game. They can take it easy with the absence of the Russians and Chinese teams. The K/F can enjoy the easy ride to the worlds podium as long as the Russians and Chinese aren't competing. Once the Russians and Chinese teams come back, they can kiss the Worlds podium buh bye.

Hi troll... You did see that KniFraz landed SBS 3t and SBS 3s at Nats, as well as two throw triples in their free skate, right? They're hardly the ones that Meagan Duhamel is calling out.

 

[VGThuy]

No need to. The Chinese and Russians aren't competing so the rest of the world don't need to up their game. They can take it easy with the absence of the Russians and Chinese teams. The K/F can enjoy the easy ride to the worlds podium as long as the Russians and Chinese aren't competing. Once the Russians and Chinese teams come back, they can kiss the Worlds podium buh bye.

And when will that be? In four years when K/F are long retired? As @Karen-W said, K/F landed their SBS triples and did throw triples…so why are they relevant to what Duhamel is talking about?

 

[Hedwig]

I say so again that the issue is the point system. Sbs jumps are so much harder than if you jump as a single skater. But get the same amount of points
And compared to the very very high valued lifts the jumps are not that important.

Throws are so I understand that pairs concentrate on lifts foremost and then throws.

This on the other hand makes pair skating more dangerous and IMO less interesting because the content is often very similar in the jumps.

I would prefer more emphasis on the sbs jumps and devaluing the lifts and make it easier to get levels there as a safety measure. This would also help develop more pairs in countries without a huge amount of ice time where especially lifts are hard to train among a packed ice rink full of single skaters.

But at the moment pairs are smart not to try sbs triples. The 3-4 points they earn there vs the 2 points they earn for a sbs double sal are just not worth the risk.

I also think that jumps should count separately for each partner or at least GOE or something (haven’t thought it through)- like of course it needs to be an element together but also be looked at a bit separate per partner. Dont know how though

 

[VGThuy]

Maybe the ISU could force SBS triple jumps in the SP and at least one in the LP. But then…how many pairs would be able to compete in the senior level if they implemented that rule?

 

[Karen-W]

I plan, during the off-season on studying the IJS pairs section. I need to understand better what the judges are rewarding in GOE when it comes to SBS elements - not just jumps but spins too. There isn't much synchronization in a lot of these elements and I would rather see more emphasis on that than necessarily landing triples just for the sake of triples. If there is going to be a triple requirement for seniors internationally, then I would prefer it be for twists or throws. There is no acceptable reason for a senior team at any ISU Championship or Grand Prix not having at least a 3tw or a throw 3 in their arsenal.

I find the lifts exciting, though I do agree, they are sometimes becoming too acrobatic and unattractive. The same can be said for pairs spins though - how many times did I gripe about clunky, ungainly exits from pairs spins this week?

Meagan had an interesting interview earlier this winter where she pointed out that she thinks the ISU should separate the singles and pairs technical committees because it's doing the pairs discipline no favors to have a lot of people with little pairs knowledge making the decisions about the discipline.

 

[airgelaal]

I would prefer more emphasis on the sbs jumps and devaluing the lifts and make it easier to get levels there as a safety measure. This would also help develop more pairs in countries without a huge amount of ice time where especially lifts are hard to train among a packed ice rink full of single skaters.

YES!!! The question is not that they can jump, but they don't want to. Many forget that pairs cannot train together with single skaters. It's not safe. But there are more single skaters, so they have priority. It is very difficult to simply persuade someone to try pairs, when there are so many difficulties. And there is always a "rent-a-russian" option

 

[once_upon]

Outside a regime that has the support of a state sponsored skate program, it will be hard to find pairs who will stay together for extended time and have sufficient pair dedicated ice time to develop a pairs program producing Russian type teams.

I think that the ISU needs to define exactly what the Pairs Discipline is and what it looks like. Acrobatics or Synchronization whats the goal, whats the vision. Once that is decided, requirements can be better designed. But pair skating would look different.

If as Dick Button would say - two skating as one, SBS jumps may need to be doubles as triples are individual speed/height/rotation dependent. I dont think a taller partner which is necessary can slow down a rotation enough to closely match the shorter partner. A triple in a taller person is going to require a greater centrifugal force faster spin to rotate 3 turns. If the goal is to complete difficult skills with the same accuracy, jumps may occur in a similar point in the program, but not necessarily synchronized.

High flying lifts are exciting, but the current positions being rewarded are not. I'm not sure how the points system should be adjusted to reflect that.

I personally think spins need adjustments in all 4 disciplines.

Whatever happens, pairs skating will be different.

 

[clairecloutier]

I don’t know why anyone would want to see more SBS jumps in pairs when most pairs already can’t land the jumps they’re doing now! Pairs must be primarily about pairs elements, not singles elements, otherwise there’s not even a reason for the discipline to exist. But some adjustments in pairs elements are in order. Some good suggestions here.

 

[text_skate]

I don’t know why anyone would want to see more SBS jumps in pairs when most pairs already can’t land the jumps they’re doing now! Pairs must be primarily about pairs elements, not singles elements, otherwise there’s not even a reason for the discipline to exist. But some adjustments in pairs elements are in order. Some good suggestions here.

Link please

 

[Andrea82]

Meagan had an interesting interview earlier this winter where she pointed out that she thinks the ISU should separate the singles and pairs technical committees because it's doing the pairs discipline no favors to have a lot of people with little pairs knowledge making the decisions about the discipline.

Is the technical committee so unbalanced?
I think that Fabio Bianchetti and Susan Lynch would be the kind of people who would have been elected into an ISU Pairs Technical Committee. Maybe also Yukiko Okabe. Billow and Laaksonen don't seem have much pair expertise.
The coach representative isn't from Single. The skater representative is Cong Han and before him it was Klimov.

 

[clairecloutier]

Link please

I just meant some good suggestions in this thread!

 

[Hedwig]

I don’t know why anyone would want to see more SBS jumps in pairs when most pairs already can’t land the jumps they’re doing now! Pairs must be primarily about pairs elements, not singles elements, otherwise there’s not even a reason for the discipline to exist. But some adjustments in pairs elements are in order. Some good suggestions here.

My point was that most pairs don't train sbs jumps as much because it is not worth it at the moment or not as much as lifts, for instance.
So I would not necessariy ask for MORE sbs jumps but that they get more points so that they are worth more. Then skaters will train the more.

But I would not be opposed to more sbs elements for two reasons - they are not as dangerous as lifts and are easier to train in a "normal" rink environment so more countries could develop pairs - and they add more variety IMO - especially with the sequence rule.

I would also love something like more creative free room but that is hard with IJS - like - hm - a throw with a combo jump and the partner has to match the combo jump.

 

[thvu]

I think what we all need to keep in mind is that Duhamel is just expressing an opinion based on her own strengths as a skater. A similar rant could be made about all of her weaknesses as a skater. What’s with the trend of ugly lift positions? What’s with the trend of jumps with no runout? What’s with the trend of skaters with poor extension?

I don’t see the big deal with double sbs jumps or throws. This is a strategy based off of teams’ strengths and weaknesses. Pairs skating is in flux right now. It will build back up.

 

[Seerek]

That podcast also threw shade, saying Tai and Randy should be assigned to Worlds instead (I'm assuming based on the sbs jumps and throws content). Such a weird comment - what part of base values do they not understand?

 

[beckab81]

Lots of the skaters doing double SBS jumps are adults that also have to earn money. Their training hours may be more limited because they are working/coaching, so the time they do have available, they spend on the high value pairs elements. Personally, I'd rather see well executed lifts, throws and death spiral, so I'm happy with those choices. Well synchronized jumps and spins can be breathtaking, but synchronization doesn't seem to be well rewarded these last few years so we're seeing it less. At least the SBS doubles seem to be better synched than many of the triples we've seen the past few years!

As far as the throws go, I'm primarily seeing the double throws from newer pairings or junior pairs - in those cases, it seems to be a learning curve and they're working towards triples. I think the biggest difference is that we're seeing teams in major competitions that in prior years would have remained at home. As others have said, this is a rebuilding season.

 

[flyingsit]

I’d rather see only one SBS jump but the option of another death spiral or step sequence.

 

[Karen-W]

I’d rather see only one SBS jump but the option of another death spiral or step sequence.

Or both a pairs combined spin and SBS spins in the FS. I don't have a problem with alternating the designated spin element in the SP every year, but I think we need to see both types in the FS, and just one SBS jump combo - keeping the SBS solo jump for the SP is fine, making it a combo in the FS will help increase the difficulty.

 

[Andrea82]

Czech Republic (Simioli/Zarbo) and Great Britain #2 (Smart/Mattick) got the minimum for Worlds at Bavarian Open.
Britain have 2 spots at Worlds. So they can now fill both of them

So far it looks like 22 pairs from 14 countries (21 from 13 if Safina/Berulova won't recover) set for Worlds.

Austria (Schaller/Mayr), Philippines (Gamez/Korovin) and Sweden (Crafoord/Crafoord) are the realistic potential additions.
Are Cho/Adcock (South Korea) set to compete at Challenge Cup?

 

[airgelaal]

In many countries, skaters who jump triples will choose singles. Not every guy and not every girl is suitable for pair skating. I'm talking about the height and weight of both.
If now everyone starts criticizing double jumps, then there will be even fewer people who want to do pair skating.

 

[airgelaal]

Czech Republic (Simioli/Zarbo) and Great Britain #2 (Smart/Mattick) got the minimum for Worlds at Bavarian Open.
Britain have 2 spots at Worlds. So they can now fill both of them

Their reaction

https://twitter.com/x/status/1621277780703907841

 

[~tapdancer~]

I love pairs and I am all about "two skating as one". It's why I can watch pairs from the 70s and 80s and marvel at their unison. Tai and Randy are a perfect example. Overhead lifts are exciting and exclusive to pairs, they should be a focus and point getters but I think the focus should be on beautiful positions, the man's turns, and the exit. I don't like a woman in a lift spreading her legs wide open horizontally, that's just an ugly position. I also think the focus should be on triple throws but the sbs jumps often look better as doubles if they are done in unison, done clean, and in a sequence. Again, what I like to see is two skating as one. And I think sbs triples can be problematic simply because of jump technique as was said upthread. Glide and ice coverage is also a big deal to me in pairs especially if the unison is good. Throws should be triples unless it's an axel. A beautiful throw with strong flow out is always breath taking to me.
ETA: Also the death spiral is of course a big deal and can separate the teams in terms of scoring. Spins are also important too and overall I think the focus should be on the pairs elements and the triple sbs jumps not so much, one in a program is enough.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

Maybe the ISU could force SBS triple jumps in the SP and at least one in the LP. But then…how many pairs would be able to compete in the senior level if they implemented that rule?

I’d prefer if unison became the major criteria for SBS jumps. SBS 2As in perfect unison like G&G’s should score way better than out of sync triples.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Their reaction

https://twitter.com/x/status/1621277780703907841

wow what a reaction !!

 

[Karen-W]

I’d prefer if unison became the major criteria for SBS jumps. SBS 2As in perfect unison like G&G’s should score way better than out of sync triples.

I'm with you. I would much rather see well-synched SBS jumps (and spins) that are "easier" because that synchronization makes the elements far more difficult than is credited in the system nowadays.

 

[On My Own]

Their reaction

https://twitter.com/x/status/1621277780703907841

Well if TES mins were 29.00, then actually they earned their mins by 0.02

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

Way back in the old days, pairs used to have a lot more leeway in terms of elements they could or could not include. Some pairs did three throws, some did none. Some did 2 twists or 2 death spirals, some include multiple SBS jumps, some had fewer, etc. Maybe it would help the worldwide state of pairs if teams had much more choice of elements in the long program? So teams bad at SBS jumps could maybe do one SBS pass but 3 throws and teams bad at jumping could do more lifts, twists, spins and death spirals. The points value of the elements would likely need to be changed and maybe there could be more choreographic base value elements similar to ice dance.