2019-20 Canadian ladies news and updates

greenapple

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Unless you work at Skate Canada, you, like the rest of us cannot possibly know what that organization will do or who they will choose. As none of the ladies have skated anywhere near the level need to be competitive at Worlds, it is, at this stage, an open book.

How do you know that Cotop is working back from injury? Did she post that somewhere?

Mallet placed second last at Skate America. That can hardly be described as a "good showing."

When did Daleman last have a 70 program? Her jump content is not basically the same as everybody else. The field is not narrowed to four people. It is narrowed to those who have competitive programs - like the six that are going to the Grand Prix Final and the 10 above them that did not quite make it. It is silly for you to act as if she is in the field.

While I wish as much as anyone that the Canadian ladies were competitive they simply are not and that is something SC needs to fix. ASAP. Instead of lolling along on the laurels of the champions they had for 8 years, they should have been fostering a new generation, investing money and doing all the things the Russians, Chinese and Japanese federations have been doing with the respective disciplines - i.e. planning for the future.
 

Sylvia

Wishing I could go back to the Lake Placid JGP
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How do you know that Cotop is working back from injury? Did she post that somewhere?

(Credit to @shutterbug for finding/posting this link in late September: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/2019-20-canadian-ladies-news-and-updates.105724/page-12#post-5648980)

ETA:

It's unfortunate Kaiya Ruiter is too young for the Youth Olympic Games but at least she will get valuable experience competing at her first Junior Worlds in March.

Kaiya's total scores so far this season:
158.38 (summer high score at BC SummerSkate)
151.13 (JGP LAT)
159.07 (JGP ITA)
175.06 (AB/NWT/NT Sectional; 7 clean triples landed in FP)
169.89 (Challenge; credited with 6 clean triples landed in FP)
 
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AxelAnnie

Graceful men lift lovely girls in white!
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It must be so hard on some skaters that once they exhibit potential, decisions made by their support network somehow remove every ounce of control and joy from their personal journey.
I do not think that is true.
 

Colonel Green

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Messages
4,890
Unless you work at Skate Canada, you, like the rest of us cannot possibly know what that organization will do or who they will choose. As none of the ladies have skated anywhere near the level need to be competitive at Worlds, it is, at this stage, an open book.
One doesn’t need to work at Skate Canada to know that only six ladies have the TES minimums to go to Worlds. And last year pretty clearly established that they’ll always send Daleman if she’s willing and able to go, so it’s only the other spot that’s really in question in that scenario.

How do you know that Cotop is working back from injury? Did she post that somewhere?
It’s been discussed in here quite a lot.

And even if it hadn’t been, why else would you think she had suddenly stopped doing the flip, loop and Lutz, all of which were in her summer competition programs?

Mallet placed second last at Skate America. That can hardly be described as a "good showing.
Point of fact, she was tenth, not eleventh.

More substantively, she had a good showing because she more or less delivered her planned content. That’s all a person can do. She is, as I noted, doing one of the less difficult layouts among our

When did Daleman last have a 70 program?
69 and change at 2019 Worlds, and that was with an iffy landing on her solo triple. It wasn’t that long ago.

Her jump content is not basically the same as everybody else.
Yes, it is. She does the same basic three-triple short/seven-triple free as all but a handful of skaters.

The field is not narrowed to four people. It is narrowed to those who have competitive programs - like the six that are going to the Grand Prix Final and the 10 above them that did not quite make it.
The field for World/Grand Prix Final medals right now is effectively down to four people. Then you’ve got the group doing the 3/7 triple layout below them, all of whom need two of the aforesaid four to falter to make the podium.

While I wish as much as anyone that the Canadian ladies were competitive they simply are not and that is something SC needs to fix. ASAP. Instead of lolling along on the laurels of the champions they had for 8 years, they should have been fostering a new generation, investing money and doing all the things the Russians, Chinese and Japanese federations have been doing with the respective disciplines - i.e. planning for the future.
So you think Skate Canada hasn’t been trying to do those things? What’s your basis for asserting that?

At the end of the day, the federation cannot will a competitive skater into existence, or prevent a skater from getting injured. Canada has, and always has had, one of the most developed skating infrastructures out there. Lots of money has been spent on it.
 

overedge

G.O.A.T.
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Canada had always has an up-and-down cycle with its women's skaters. When Joannie Rochette was winning medals at Worlds and Olympics, people were moaning then about no reliable skaters coming down the pipeline after her, and how Skate Canada needed to fix that. And then Kaetlyn Osmond and Gabby Daleman came along a few years later.

It happens, and sometimes it's not the federation's fault or the skaters' fault. It's just the way things are and the pace at which skaters develop. Forcing them when they're not ready is a bad strategy too (coughTraceyWainmancough).
 

Erin

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barbarafan

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2020 Worlds TES minimums are 29 / 49 and six have both: Bausback, Cotop, Daleman, Mallet, Pineault, Schumacher (assuming Chartrand is not competing at nationals).

Emily BAUSBACKCANISU CS Warsaw Cup 201915/11/201929.41SISU CS Warsaw Cup 201917/11/201963.19S
Alaine CHARTRANDCANISU GP Skate Canada International 201826/10/201831.82SISU GP Skate America 201821/10/201853.60S
Aurora COTOPCANBavarian Open 201909/02/201929.17SBavarian Open 201910/02/201953.63S
Gabrielle DALEMANCANISU World Championships 201920/03/201936.75SISU World Championships 201922/03/201960.26S
Hannah DAWSONCANISU CS U.S. International Figure Skating Classic 201920/09/201928.65SVolvo Open Cup 201909/11/201942.26S
Michelle LONGCANISU CS Autumn Classic International 201912/09/201922.95SISU CS Autumn Classic International 201913/09/201949.01S
Veronik MALLETCANISU CS Finlandia Trophy 201805/10/201830.81SISU Four Continents Championships 201908/02/201957.38S
Alicia PINEAULTCANISU GP Skate Canada International 201826/10/201831.99SISU CS Autumn Classic International 201821/09/201854.87S
Alison SCHUMACHERCANISU CS Warsaw Cup 201915/11/201930.38SISU CS Warsaw Cup 201917/11/201955.76S
Still wondering why Skate Canada has not sent Kim Decelles to any international competitions. Surely they could have sent one more to Warsaw Cup.
She won the short with a clean triple triple. Her short scores well.
 

euterpe

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12,385
Gabrielle when clean can get a 70+ short program score with that content, so...pretty decently? Nobody is saying she’s a medal contender (at the moment that field has effectively narrowed to four people), but it’s silly to act like she’s way behind the field. Her jump content is basically the same as everybody else bar the Russians and Rika.
Since Worlds 2017, Gabby has achieved 70 or higher exactly twice: 70.65 at CoC 2017, and 71.61 at 2018 Worlds.

Most other scores in the 2017-18 and 2018-19 season were in the 60s:
60.72 Finlandia 17, 68.66 SA 17, 63.28 US Intl 18 (she skipped the 2018 GP), 69.19 Worlds. Her problem has been delivering a clean SP, and in most cases the 3z has been the stumbling block.

Then came the current season, where she has really struggled, scoring 45.82 in the Finlandia SP and 63.94 at SC, where she tanked the FS.

Gabby is unfortunately not the skater she was back in 2017-2018, so she can't be depended upon to deliver 70+ SP scores. And with her current FS content, unless there is a complete turnaround, she lags way behind not only the Russians and Rika, but also Tennell, the Koreans and even Mariah Bell.

Let's see how she does at Nationals
 

Colonel Green

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Gabby is unfortunately not the skater she was back in 2017-2018, so she can't be depended upon to deliver 70+ SP scores.
I didn't say she did it a lot, I said that when she skates cleanly that's what she scores. She hasn't skated all that much in the last few years to begin with, and the constant injury problems are a further hindrance, but as I later noted, she scored 69+ at 2019 Worlds, and that was with an imperfect solo jump. The post I was responding too was incorrectly claiming that Daleman's content is somehow markedly behind the rest of the world.
 

puglover

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The step up to being competitive on the world scene is a very steep one and Canada has never, to my knowledge, had a long line of contenders. However, they did have Kaetlyn, Gabby, and Alaine who had triple/triples, lutz and flips and on a good day were there. I am not sure Skate Canada could have predicted what has happened. I suspect winning worlds was a major factor in Kaetlyn's decision to retire before Montreal, Gabby looked so strong at nationals 2018 and certainly seemed on her way through to Montreal, and Alaine, well, we all wish things had gone different for her. Aurora and Alison and a couple of others seemed on course to take over, perhaps after Montreal. I suspect nothing can happen ASAP. Anything regarding a groin injury, as Aurora's seems to be, is not a quick fix. We just have to be patient and enjoy the lovely skates we see - top ten - maybe not.
 
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sharpblade

New Member
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Canada had always has an up-and-down cycle with its women's skaters. When Joannie Rochette was winning medals at Worlds and Olympics, people were moaning then about no reliable skaters coming down the pipeline after her, and how Skate Canada needed to fix that. And then Kaetlyn Osmond and Gabby Daleman came along a few years later.

It happens, and sometimes it's not the federation's fault or the skaters' fault. It's just the way things are and the pace at which skaters develop. Forcing them when they're not ready is a bad strategy too (coughTraceyWainmancough).
Another factor is money. It always comes down to the almighty buck. Young skaters with potential often have to quit competitive skating due to the enormous cost of training, equipment and coaching. These skaters require financial support from Skate Canada or other sources. Other countries like Russia streamline young talent and assist with funding. I feel this is one of Canada's biggest problems and it needs to be addressed in order for young talent to flourish. Next Gen has helped but it's still not enough.
 

Colonel Green

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Another factor is money. It always comes down to the almighty buck. Young skaters with potential often have to quit competitive skating due to the enormous cost of training, equipment and coaching. These skaters require financial support from Skate Canada or other sources. Other countries like Russia streamline young talent and assist with funding. I feel this is one of Canada's biggest problems and it needs to be addressed in order for young talent to flourish. Next Gen has helped but it's still not enough.
More money is always helpful, but I don't think you can say that ladies' skating here is notably weak as a result, since the other three disciplines all produce a more consistent talent stream.

Beyond which, the amount of state funding, etc. in a place like Russia isn't something Skate Canada is in a position to provide. I'm sure they'd love to be able to, but they themselves would need more funding to do that.
 

haribobo

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Honestly, I think a lot of it is the coaches. Something isn't right- watched a ton of the Challenge senior ladies and I cannot understand so many miserable music choices, skaters just sort of "throwing" triple attempts they can't land, skaters who just seem exhausted way before their program is over, skaters just crawling their way through a program with no speed, weak choreo. Sure some skaters just don't have much talent but when its almost the whole field, I really am wondering what is going on in these rinks. EVEN Brian Orser's and Lee Barkell's. It is worth noting that Brian inherited Yuna, Yuzuru, Javi, etc after they already were pretty amazing skaters. I think the US, Russian, Japanese, and Korean coaching in general is just much better and as such, strong skaters are bubbling up in the lower levels just waiting to take over. It is so strange to me that Kim Decelles has these strong SP and then blows up in the FS. And that Alison Schumacher vacillates between FS where she lands 6 triples and like 1. Hannah Dawson's FS music is so depressing, nobody could feel inspired to land triples or do anything fun in that program. I saw Bulawka do a world class sp earlier this year with a 3t-3t and 3loop, with really fun choreo to boot, and not be able to repeat it since (well, the great program is still there). I feel like with the right training program, someone like her could really flourish, even internationally. Bausback had a great couple of skates a few weeks ago in Warsaw and kind of a rough go this time. Gran and Tamura seem worse every time I see them. Orzel and Farrow were really slow. Long and Cotop really are not showing competitive programs at this point. I am glad for Schizas' success and I hope she can repeat it the next time. And get a senior intl...they really need to send someone to 4cc who isn't just doing toe and sal semi-reliably like Cotop is doing. I just imagine what wonders a Tom Z or Christy Krall or Priscilla Hill or Elaine Zayak would do with some of these skaters. There's got to be a better way...
 
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Colonel Green

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Honestly, I think a lot of it is the coaches.
Considering that these same coaches produce plenty of successful skaters in the other disciplines and that foreign skaters move halfway around the world to train with them, I don’t see any basis for that.
 

haribobo

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Erm, the 3 most successful Canadian men at the moment, Keegan, Nam, and Roman, are not coached by those coaches....interesting that for Nam and Roman they are listed as former coaches. The pairs and dance coaches are totally different for the most part.

Satoko is having her worst season in years. Gogolev has been having kind of rough go in some parts of this season after his success as a little sprite in years past. I dunno, everyone has their ups and downs but this whole thing makes me nervous. Yuzuru is doing amazing but he seems, like Nathan, to sort of transcend space and time with his talent, and maybe could succeed anywhere. Others need more guidance I think.
 
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Colonel Green

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Erm, the 3 most successful Canadian men at the moment, Keegan, Nam, and Roman, are not coached by those coaches....interesting that for Nam and Roman they are listed as former coaches.
Orser coached Nam to a World Junior title. Then Nam started growing, had major confidence/family issues and started coach-switching rapidly in a manner that he's only now starting to recover from. To address one such example.

There are numerous coaches in Canada. The fact that at the moment Orser and Barkell don't have the most successful Canadian male skaters doesn't tell you anything. To cite just one example, Barkell coached Jeffrey Buttle to Olympic and World medals. It's baseless to suggest that the coaches are the problem, when Canada doesn't have a coaching problem in any other discipline.

Satoko is having her worst season in years.
Because she has to rework her jump technique.

Gogolev has been having kind of rough go in some parts of this season after his success as a little sprite in years past.
Gogolev is primarily coached by Raf now, and in any event, he's growing and changing technique.
 

sk8girl

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Considering that these same coaches produce plenty of successful skaters in the other disciplines and that foreign skaters move halfway around the world to train with them, I don’t see any basis for that.
Yeah, that's the thing. It seems that our coaches and choreographers and programs and facilities and funding, etc. have no problems producing a pretty consistent string of strong skaters in the other three disciplines. The question is why are the women the exception, and not just now, but over many years/decades?
 

overedge

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Gogolev is going through the same thing that Kevin Reynolds did, when he grew out of being cute and tiny with big jumps. But at least Gogolev is going through that transition with a more competent coach.
 

haribobo

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Point taken about Gogolev and Satoko. However, I'm worried about those training camps now, not years ago when Jeff Buttle had success. I worry that they've grown too big too fast, and can't keep up. I wonder if Gabby could have been supported better through her trials if there weren't 50 other skaters to worry about...but I don't just mean Brian and Lee...there are so many others to look at who maybe just aren't firing on all cylinders or something, just a theory though....I kind of refuse to believe that these ladies skaters are just naturally weaker physically in Canada. Because that would be ridiculous.
 

Zazy

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431
they really need to send someone to 4cc who isn't just doing toe and sal semi-reliably like Cotop is doing.
This summer, Cotop was doing flip, loop, 2axel-3salchow sequence and even landed a 3flip-3toe. It's kind of sad that she almost won Challenge when she was clearly undertrained (and with watered-down content) but that's not her fault. She's been injured for much of the past two years which has severely hampered her training. If she could get one year injury-free with Ravi I think we could see some great progress.

As for Schizas, they didn't give her a jgp event, or even list her as a sub (even though she was 2nd at nationals in junior), so I doubt they'll send her to a senior B. She doesn't seem to be very high on SC's priority list (which in itself is a problem, they shouldn't be playing favourites).
But I like her a lot, and she's definitely improved her presentation this year. I'm guessing her skating senior means she isn't interested in the youth Olympic games? She does fit the age requirements.
 

Erin

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As for Schizas, they didn't give her a jgp event, or even list her as a sub (even though she was 2nd at nationals in junior), so I doubt they'll send her to a senior B. She doesn't seem to be very high on SC's priority list (which in itself is a problem, they shouldn't be playing favourites).
But I like her a lot, and she's definitely improved her presentation this year. I'm guessing her skating senior means she isn't interested in the youth Olympic games? She does fit the age requirements.
She competed as a junior at Volvo Cup, although she finished behind Catherine Carle there, who is also age-eligible for YOG. Skate Canada’s YOG criteria is listed as being the best international junior scores for the 2019-20 season and qualifying for the JGP final, which no one did. If they stick to the published criteria (which I think they should, as what’s the point of publishing and then changing it), Carle would get it with a score of 153 assuming she is interested. Schizas would be next in line with 150 and then I think the next is Gran with ~138 on the JGP.
 

nadioso

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As for Schizas, they didn't give her a jgp event, or even list her as a sub (even though she was 2nd at nationals in junior), so I doubt they'll send her to a senior B. She doesn't seem to be very high on SC's priority list (which in itself is a problem, they shouldn't be playing favourites).
But I like her a lot, and she's definitely improved her presentation this year. I'm guessing her skating senior means she isn't interested in the youth Olympic games? She does fit the age requirements.
What should be happening is that all next-gen skaters should automatically be listed as subs for all JGP events. There is no limit to the number of subs to submit to the ISU. It also maximizes flexibility for assignments as the "official entry or entries hopefully" on the ISU list is just a place holder.

Anybody not on the list but skates well in the summer should be added to the subs list.
 

nadioso

Active Member
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334
Been reading the more recent posts about coaching.

Hairbobo, one thing I notice is that there are some good coaches in Canada that few people are flocking to,

You would think that a coach like Ravi Walia would have picked more skaters after Osmond's success. It seems he only picked up Cotop and she was on the right track until the groin injury. I am happy Aurora is staying there as Ravi has shown the ability to manage a skater through multiple injuries ( like he did with Osmond ).

Maybe more skaters would also go to the Langdon/Davis team (Ruiter's coach ) soon.

Some skaters thrive in clubs where there are a lot of skaters and others don't. I don't think going to the cricket has helped Joseph Phan for example. He seemed to do better in the smaller environment.

There are other coaches like Joanne Mcleod that has a history of ruining skaters and teaching bad technique that still pick up skaters all the time.
 

barbarafan

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Erm, the 3 most successful Canadian men at the moment, Keegan, Nam, and Roman, are not coached by those coaches....interesting that for Nam and Roman they are listed as former coaches. The pairs and dance coaches are totally different for the most part.

Satoko is having her worst season in years. Gogolev has been having kind of rough go in some parts of this season after his success as a little sprite in years past. I dunno, everyone has their ups and downs but this whole thing makes me nervous. Yuzuru is doing amazing but he seems, like Nathan, to sort of transcend space and time with his talent, and maybe could succeed anywhere. Others need more guidance I think.
Nam was invited to leave as he was not serious about his skating...Roman was not there long at all...less than a yr. Sometimes an intense club like that is not suited to everyone.
 

Colonel Green

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You would think that a coach like Ravi Walia would have picked more skaters after Osmond's success. It seems he only picked up Cotop and she was on the right track until the groin injury. I am happy Aurora is staying there as Ravi has shown the ability to manage a skater through multiple injuries ( like he did with Osmond ).

Maybe more skaters would also go to the Langdon/Davis team (Ruiter's coach ) soon.
Incidentally, Ruiter also trained under Walia previously, when her family lived in Edmonton.

Kaetlyn periodically "likes" tweets about Kaiya on Twitter, so evidently she still follows her career.
 

Seerek

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You would think that a coach like Ravi Walia would have picked more skaters after Osmond's success. It seems he only picked up Cotop and she was on the right track until the groin injury. I am happy Aurora is staying there as Ravi has shown the ability to manage a skater through multiple injuries ( like he did with Osmond ).
On the men's side, Ravi coaches Eric Liu.
 

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