1998 Olympic SP: Surya vs Irina

[bardtoob]

1998 Olympic SP:

Surya

[HD] Surya Bonaly - 1998 Nagano Olympics - SP

Surya Bonaly / Сурия Бонали / スルヤ・ボナリー 1998 Nagano Olympics / 1998 олимпиада в нагано / 1998 長野五輪 Ladies SP Playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P...

www.youtube.com

vs

Irina

[HD] Irina Slutskaya - 1998 Nagano Olympics - SP イリーナ・スルツカヤ Ирина Слуцкая

Irina Slutskaya / Ирина Слуцкая / イリーナ・スルツカヤ 1998 Nagano Olympics / 1998 олимпиада в нагано / 1998 長野五輪 Ladies SP Playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?...

www.youtube.com

Who wins?

 

[tony]

Surya hands down.

 

[bardtoob]

It's not such an obvious choice because of the jump content of both programs and Surya's skatings skills had dramatically improved beyond her past reputation. You actually have to see the programs to understand.

 

[tony]

It's not such an obvious choice because of the jump content of both programs and Surya's skatings skills had dramatically improved beyond her past reputation. You actually have to see the programs to understand.

I don’t know if this was a reply to me or in general. If to me- I’ve seen the ladies’ short programs countless times from Nagano. We’ve even judged them here under IJS and maybe a long time ago also under 6.0.

Still: Surya. Hands down.

 

[bardtoob]

I don’t know if this was a reply to me or in general. If to me- I’ve seen the ladies’ short programs countless times from Nagano. We’ve even judged them here under IJS and maybe a long time ago also under 6.0.

Still: Surya. Hands down.

No, not a reply to you, and I agree Surya was clearly better.

I will say, in the words of Sandra Bezic, Irina's choreography was trite

 

[casken]

Were the flying spin revolution requirements more lenient in 98? I only counted 6 revolutions once Surya actually got into a sit position.

 

[Marco]

Were the flying spin revolution requirements more lenient in 98? I only counted 6 revolutions once she actually got into a sit position.

We clarified in the 98 Worlds thread. The requirement was 8 revs.

My take:

Combo jump: 3toe3toe vs 2lutz2toe. Surya by a mile

Solo jump: steps immediately into 3sal with scratchy landing vs 3 turns into smooth 3loop. Easily Irina

2axel: plain 2axel slightly telegraphed vs 2axel with tano and exit flourish. Easily Irina

Flying spin: turns into deathdrop into cannonball slowed down 6 revs vs. butterfly back sit 8 revs. Easily Irina

Layback: plain position with average speed vs. 10+ revs on good speed and diff var. Easily Irina

Combo spin: slower combo spin with less revs vs. big fast combo spin but sloppy camel (1 rev) and slight travel on donut. Irina

Spirals: sloppy positions and slightly slow vs. solid positions and speed on deep edges. Easily Irina

Steps: SL steps not quite reaching the end of rink vs. circ steps with complete circle and some 1 footed turns. Irina

Presentation wise, they actually both had some in-betweens. Surya's program was more mature and easy, but she was slower and covered less ice. I prefer watching Surya but I might give the edge to Irina.

Although Surya trumped Irina on the jump combo, she had an easier triple and some quality issues as well as a mandatory deduction. I actually would give it to Irina overall.

Irina: 5.2/5.6
Surya: 5.1/5.6

 

[bardtoob]

2axel: plain 2axel slightly telegraphed vs 2axel with tano and exit flourish. Easily Irina

Surya's exiting speed was better.

 

[skateboy]

Irina, but by just a hair.

 

[Fiero425]

Irina, but by just a hair.

Just going from memory, Irina was on the cusp of having problems skating! She had a lost season or 2 allowing Maria Butyrskaya to take over the top spot in Russia and to even capture a World Title over Michelle! As for Surya, it was a miracle she was even in Nagano after such a crippling Achilles tendon injury suffered 2 years before! Within weeks of surgery, she was back out there, but was never the same! Her 3 Lutz was gone so by the time the Olympics came around, she was down to doing the simplest of combos to stay relevant with the 3T/3T! It was something she could do in her sleep and with the competition out there, it kept her in the top 6; the last group of skaters to do LP @ the OG! I can still see in my head Elvis Stojko and his team supporting Surya to get her thru that SP doing "Caravan" IIRC! I thought it amazing she competed fully in the '97-98 Grand Prix doing that SP and LP of "Samson & Delilah!" It was her swan song before going into the pro ranks where she'd be competing against the likes of Katarina Witt, Oksana Baiul, & even Tonya Harding once or twice when she was allowed to skate! For some reason, Surya switch her LP to an old one at the last minute; "Four Seasons" from Vivaldi! She wasn't up to a real program to push the top skaters, but at least she got to give the judges the finger with that illegal backflip!

 

[alchemy void]

Surya.

 

[screech]

I went for Irina, but it was a hard decision. Surya had the better combo for sure, but aside from that, Irina's spins and spirals were better. Surya's edge on her axel exit probably cost her 0.1, though the jump itself was great. The Tano wasn't really worth anything back then, but Irina's axel was really nice. Surya had better (existent) steps into her solo jump, but the jump itself wasn't that good. I'd also give Surya a slight edge on her basic skating, but that could be because I've always hated Irina's body position while stroking. I'd give Surya the higher second mark, but Irina did as well as she could have with that terrible music.

 

[Vagabond]

There's no option for "Who gives a flying flip?"

But seriously, Surya.

 

[VGThuy]

I went for Irina, but it was a hard decision. Surya had the better combo for sure, but aside from that, Irina's spins and spirals were better. Surya's edge on her axel exit probably cost her 0.1, though the jump itself was great. The Tano wasn't really worth anything back then, but Irina's axel was really nice. Surya had better (existent) steps into her solo jump, but the jump itself wasn't that good. I'd also give Surya a slight edge on her basic skating, but that could be because I've always hated Irina's body position while stroking. I'd give Surya the higher second mark, but Irina did as well as she could have with that terrible music.

That’s a great point. Too often, fans just go by speed itself in evaluating skating skills but they forget part of evaluating speed is how the skaters get that speed. Breaking at the waist and bad carriage are things judges are supposed to take off for according to the rules back in 6.0 and IJS as doing those things to get speed reveals a lack of skill.

 

[Marco]

There's no option for "Who gives a flying flip?"

Incidentally, neither could land a flip in Nagano.

 

[bardtoob]

Incidentally, neither could land a flip in Nagano.

I though Surya landed one in every sense, split flip salto with attitude upon exit

Surya Bonaly 1998 Nagano long program australian tv

_ 1998 OLYMPIC FREE PROGRAM australian tv

youtu.be

Note: After she does probably the best circular step sequence of her career. It is not incredibly difficult but the speed and freedom was something that would have been beyond her in the late 80s and most of the 90s.

 

[gkelly]

That’s a great point. Too often, fans just go by speed itself in evaluating skating skills but they forget part of evaluating speed is how the skaters get that speed. Breaking at the waist and bad carriage are things judges are supposed to take off for according to the rules back in 6.0 and IJS as doing those things to get speed reveals a lack of skill.

Yes.

And also the effortlessness of the glide, how efficiently the skater can accelerate, what sounds the blades make or don't make against the ice, depth of edge, depth and softness of knee bend, security of the edges, whether the skater needs to keep readjusting balance/alignment of the upper body, etc.

Also the "multidirectional skating" and "one-foot skating" criteria from the IJS Skating Skills component.

Much of that is much easier to see (or hear) in person. Some of it is clear on video if you know to look for it.

The written rules didn't spell out all of that before IJS. But the judges would have been looking for it to evaluate the overall quality of the basic skating.

 

[Marco]

Yes.

And also the effortlessness of the glide, how efficiently the skater can accelerate, what sounds the blades make or don't make against the ice, depth of edge, depth and softness of knee bend, security of the edges, whether the skater needs to keep readjusting balance/alignment of the upper body, etc.

Also the "multidirectional skating" and "one-foot skating" criteria from the IJS Skating Skills component.

Much of that is much easier to see (or hear) in person. Some of it is clear on video if you know to look for it.

The written rules didn't spell out all of that before IJS. But the judges would have been looking for it to evaluate the overall quality of the basic skating.

I quite severely punished skaters who didn't / couldn't demonstrate the above in the 1998 Worlds ladies SP judging thread. I guess "how much" a judge should deduct for the kind of pumping by Lavrenchuk (for example) really comes down to individual judges' personal preference.

 

[Maximillian]

Surya won 1 element out of 8, I actually like Irina's program and packaging and Bezic of all people calling choreography trite is pretty rich.

 

[Fiero425]

Surya won 1 element out of 8, I actually like Irina's program and packaging and Bezic of all people calling choreography trite is pretty rich.

I could never stand Bezic! She's just one ugly person when commentating; brutal to Surya while forgiving and conciliatory to others! Michelle Kwan could do no wrong! ;-(

 

[Bellanca]

I am calling this a tie.

Surya gets points for flair, sass, and brass.

Irina gets points for ice coverage, which always ranks high in my book. Her dress is very Perkova, even though Ms. Perkova came after.

 

[MR-FAN]

Easily Surya. Better program, better presentation, and a 3-3 vs 2-2. Irina had better spins and solo jumps, but that should only matter had she landed her combo. The fact that she made the final flight with a 2-2...

and I luuuuurve Irina

 

[Coco]

Program construction:

Surya
2a
jump combo
spirals
layback
steps into solo triple
flying spin
step sequence
combo spin

Irina
jump combination
"steps" into solo triple
flying spin
2a
spirals
layback
step sequence
combo spin

So I think Surya would prevail on this one aspect of the 2nd mark. She spreads the flying elements (jumps & flying spin) throughout her program better than most at this time. Irina does all four flight elements first, basically in descending order of difficulty.

 

[Maximillian]

Pretty sure reverse turning 3s are steps and a more difficult entrance into the jump. The fact that Slutskaya always made it look so easy doesn't mean it was. Surya basically did two foreward three turns-ish, it was pretty half-a'd footwork.

 

[Taso]

Surya (and Irina's SPs, overall, are IMO some of the best of all time)

 

[VGThuy]

Let’s be real, both of them would have an argument over Lu Chen’s SP given her UR on her Lutz and her low quality spins. And I love Lu Chen.

 

[Miki89]

I was very happy about Lu Chen's bronze so glad that it was under 6.0. But honestly her programs were miles ahead of those two artistically.

 

[Bellanca]

I was very happy about Lu Chen's bronze so glad that it was under 6.0. But honestly her programs were miles ahead of those two artistically.

Without a doubt. Lu’s skating was so smooth, elegant, and beautiful. As a pro, no one, absolutely no one did it better. I remember people oohing, aahing, crying - seriously moved and very emotional during her performance at a pro ice show once. Truly amazing.

 

[alchemy void]

Without a doubt. Lu’s skating was so smooth, elegant, and beautiful. As a pro, no one, absolutely no one did it better. I remember people oohing, aahing, crying - seriously moved and very emotional during her performance at a pro ice show once. Truly amazing.

Really? I love all her amateur programs very much, and think she's a little underrated in general. But the only memory I have of her is a pro is her "skating" to Peel Me a Grape with very little content or much skating, but a prop of a tray of grapes.

 

[Bellanca]

Really? I love all her amateur programs very much, and think she's a little underrated in general. But the only memory I have of her is a pro is her "skating" to Peel Me a Grape with very little content or much skating, but a prop of a tray of grapes.

Thankfully, no grapes at the shows I attended. That would be categorized as a swing and a miss.

I truly appreciate one expanding their artistic expression, but occasionally it does backfire. I lucked out because every time I saw Lu, she was terrific. Her skating was technical and so elegant. The crowd gave Lu a standing ovation every time.