Would the performances of Evgenia Medvedeva in Pyeongcheng have won all other Olympics?

[savchenkoboss]

While I am far from a big fan of Medvedeva I do think the often coined term we have heard in the past "would have won any other Olympics"; we all heard this said after 88 for Orser and Manley, after 94 for Miskutienok & Dmitriev, after 98 for Kwan, after 2002 for Goebel, after 2010 for Davis & White, after 2014 for Kim and Kostner, could be applied to Medvedeva. Thinking back at all the past Olympic ladies winners, the ONLY one I think who would have stood a shot against her, either under IJS or 6.0 is Yu Na Kim from 2010. Looking over each.

2014- Sotnitkova only won a rigged event since she is Russian at the Games in Russia, which we have now learnt was so full of doping, cheating, corruption, in all sports, that Russia was semi banned from the 2018 Games. Medvedeva is also Russian who would have had same riggage and is much better than Sotnikova, so obviously wins instead. Whether Medvedeva of Pyeongcheng really skated better than Kim and Kostner of Sochi is immaterial and not even worth discussing, just as Kim, Kostner, and Asada outskating Sotnikova was immaterial and irrelevant at the actual Sochi Games.

2010- The one I am not sure about due to how great Yu Na Kim was here. I think under 6.0 Medvedeva wins for sure though since you had to do all the triples under 6.0. Under IJS I am not sure who wins.

2006- The winner was a great skater who skated beautifully but only 5 triples. Easy win for Medvedeva.

2002- LOL

1998- While Lipinski was great I am 99% sure Medvedeva beats her. With a triple flip-triple toe in the short, and two triple-triples in the long she has more jump content, even with Tara's famed triple loop-triple loop, and better quality jumps, and infinitely better spins/steps. Probably better artistically too. Most key of all Medvedeva's only relative jump weaknesses- flutz, double axel, ironically wouldnt hurt her one bit vs Tara as Tara's biggest weakness are a much worse flutz and a much worse double axel with a tiny roller skater technique. Tara's only shot would be speed, she was definitely faster in Nagano than Medvedeva who isnt fast for a top skater. Still Medvedeva wasnt as slow as Kwan skated in Nagano, so I dont think even that would be enough for Tara. Lastly Medvedeva of 2017 in 1997, Tara isnt even World Champion going into the Games, obviously Medvedeva is, Tara is probably in reality the bronze medalist behind Kwan now even with the same skates.

1994- LOL

1992- Yamaguchi fell and popped a jump, so hands Medvedeva an easy win, even if she had the goods to beat Pyeongcheng Medvedeva with her triple lutz-triple toe, pure and true lutz, complex entrances in jumps, great spins, and superior artistry, had she gone clean.

I wont bother going 88 and earlier as obviously the jump content at that point isnt even competitive. So the only question really is 2010. Would Medvedeva of 2018 have won every previous Olympics?

 

[briancoogaert]

I'm not sure about 2014. Medvedeva is not so much better than Sotnikova. Sotnikova's jumps are so big, her overall skating is big and she skates fast.

 

[Meoima]

I'm not sure about 2014. Medvedeva is not so much better than Sotnikova. Sotnikova's jumps are so big, her overall skating is big and she skates fast.

Yeah they both have fluzt, but the better skater + jumper is Adelina at her best.

 

[Marco]

Adelina in 2014 and Yuna in 2010 would have won on GOEs if not also PCS.

In 1998, I don't believe a 3/3 was allowed in the short - but if it was I wonder if Tara and even Michelle would have other plans. To this day I still think Michelle should have won Nagano and I still believe so if you add Evgenia to the mix. If Evgenia competed in Nagano perhaps Michelle would get a better skate order and Tara wouldn't have the luck of skating right after Surya (who presumably would not have made the final group).

 

[briancoogaert]

Adelina in 2014 and Yuna in 2010 would have won on GOEs if not also PCS.

In 1998, I don't believe a 3/3 was allowed in the short - but if it was I wonder if Tara and even Michelle would have other plans. To this day I still think Michelle should have won Nagano and I still believe so if you add Evgenia to the mix. If Evgenia competed in Nagano perhaps Michelle would get a better skate order and Tara wouldn't have the luck of skating right after Surya (who presumably would not have made the final group).

IIRC, 3/3 has been allowed in the SP since 1997.

 

[Marco]

IIRC, 3/3 has been allowed in the SP since 1997.

Oh right, I stand corrected. And I was just mentioning Surya Bonaly too. Thanks man.

I believe Surya and Kristina Czako were the only (top-ish) skaters attempting them in the short anyway in the first few seasons of that being allowed, so Tara / Michelle probably wouldn't bother. I don't think a 3flip3toe would make much difference for Evgenia back then, just like it didn't for Carolina against Michelle and Sasha in 2003 - 2005. If in the unlikely event that Evgenia's 3flip3toe helped her win the short, Michelle and Tara would still be in control of their own destinies.

 

[briancoogaert]

Oh right, I stand corrected. And I was just mentioning Surya Bonaly too. Thanks man.

I believe Surya and Kristina Czako were the only (top-ish) skaters attempting them in the short anyway in the first few seasons of that being allowed

And : https://youtu.be/XKxe2yGz5MQ?t=53s

 

[bardtoob]

Medvedeva's programs were designed for this specific version of the scoring system, and she did not do one specific thing that would score well in general and even Yamaguchi did, which was repeat the 3Lz in LP. She also did not do a 3Lz in the SP.

Also, both Tara and Michelle did 3Lz combo, 3F, 2A in the SP at some point in the 1997-98 season, which might have been seen as preferred to 3F-3T, 3Lp, 2A.

 

[bardtoob]

In 1998, I don't believe a 3/3 was allowed in the short ...

https://youtu.be/Z5G8rQl7L0g

 

[bardtoob]

I wont bother going 88 and earlier as obviously the jump content at that point isnt even competitive. So the only question really is 2010. Would Medvedeva of 2018 have won every previous Olympics?

https://youtu.be/CgIvUjCrlgY

2002- LOL

Sarah's content was respectable. The tragedy was that the winner was not Slutskaya or Kwan.

 

[berthesghost]

These back to the future what ifs crack me up! If Med skated in Germany the same lp she skated in Korea would Henie still have heil hitlered? would the German crowd have liked her sailor moon exhibition?

So, what are the rules? Does Med still go into every Olys a two time and reigning WC with hype of being unbeatable? Or does Kristi Oksana etc all keep their world titles?

Albertville was a splatfest fan’s wet dream. But Med still skates clean? Is she superhuman as well as a time traveler?

Does Baiul still out Harding Harding with all of the fake drama? Are the tears of a silver medalist less copious? Or is Med part of the practice crash? Maybe her sudden appearance from the future, holding a iPhone and not sporting aggressive fringe/bangs causes the on ice crash? Does she skate the same lp in the 90s but her costumes are more bedazzled so she can win?

 

[savchenkoboss]

Albertville was a splatfest fan’s wet dream. But Med still skates clean? Is she superhuman as well as a time traveler?

There actually were quite a few clean performances in Albertville, they just werent from the big guns. Karen Preston was totally clean. Baby Yuka Sato was clean. Very young Lu Chen apart from a silly double flip in the short was clean. Torp Lind was clean in both programs.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Sarah's content was respectable. The tragedy was that the winner was not Slutskaya or Kwan.

Under IJS she might get credited for 1 or 2 clean triples. She would be lucky to have a score over 100.

Under 6.0 she still failed to get a single 5.9, shocking for an Olympic Champion.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I'm not sure about 2014. Medvedeva is not so much better than Sotnikova. Sotnikova's jumps are so big, her overall skating is big and she skates fast.

Sotnikova probably jumps bigger but her jumps are overall poorer quality with sloppy crooked air positions, whippiness and poor control, and no flow out. That is even when they are all clean which they never all are. Her long program in Sochi was probably closest to her cleanest ever but it still had a super bad step out on a jump combo, and a badly underrotated triple flutz-triple toe (which wasnt called since she was only competing vs Kim and Kostner and had to win for Putin, but now competing with another Russian for gold it is probably called).

And of course her artistry sucks, while Medvedeva has very good artistry.

She only won over Kim and Kostner due to corruption, everyone agreed with that at the time so I wont even bother debating it, but Medvedeva would get the same corruption as she is also Russian, and it would just be who is better of the two which is obviously Medvedeva by far.

Adelina in 2014 and Yuna in 2010 would have won on GOEs if not also PCS.

Yu Na in 2010 probably true. Adelina in 2014 you are probably forgetting Medvedeva is also RUSSIAN so would benefit from the same fixed scoring as Adelina got. That is unless there is some other factor like Tarasova or Putin or Alla S. is a much better fan of Adelina, which I guess is possible, but otherwise the same benefits would apply to her.

If Medvedeva were a non Russian I would agree she never beat Sotnikova in 2014, and probably winds up 4th and off the podium behind Kim and Kostner, and 5th in the Lp behind Asada. The fact is she is also Russian, just like Sotnikova, so unlike any other women in the whole event would be allowed into a fair fight with Sotnikova. It might be closer than I am thinking but I am still pretty sure Medvedeva wins with Sotnikova still making big mistakes (bad stumble on a jump combo in the long, bad underrotation of her triple flutz-triple toe) and doing a mere triple toe-triple toe in the short. Some of her elements might get higher GOE but Medvedeva gets huge GOE, got the highest of any women in Pyeongcheng which unlike Sotnikova in Sochi was 100% neutrel territory, despite losing, so she wouldnt gain much or hardly anything overall here. And PCS would almost certainly be lower too. Medvedeva may not be the most artistic skater ever, but she still gets the highest PCS of every women (including her losses to Zagitova) of any women in all her events the last quad, again neutral territory in almost everyone. Sotnikova isnt an artistic skater at all, frenetic and so sloppy, and couldnt even get the highest PCS of the fixed Sochi Olympics (3rd in SP, 2nd in LP).

 

[SmallFairy]

And : https://youtu.be/XKxe2yGz5MQ?t=53s

Lenka Kulovana also had one planned, but had a step out on the first 3t in Nagano and could only manage a double. She did it in several earlier sp's though.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Lenka Kulovana also had one planned, but had a step out on the first 3t in Nagano and could only manage a double. She did it in several earlier sp's though.

Lenka was such a beautiful and exquisite skater. I wish the judges had appreciated her artistry and elegance more despite her lack of the bigger triples. It still annoys me her short program in Lillehammer was placed 11th. Her and Von Sayer were so screwed there.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Yeah they both have fluzt, but the better skater + jumper is Adelina at her best.

You consider a 1 event fluke who had the most controversial victory in skating history, so much so she was showered with death threats and hasnt shown her face outside of Russia in a competition since, and who was a super inconsistent jumper, to be a better skater and jumper than a girl who dominated the sport almost 3 years straight out of juniors? Are you being serious!?!?

 

[giselle23]

Adelina in 2014 and Yuna in 2010 would have won on GOEs if not also PCS.

In 1998, I don't believe a 3/3 was allowed in the short - but if it was I wonder if Tara and even Michelle would have other plans. To this day I still think Michelle should have won Nagano and I still believe so if you add Evgenia to the mix. If Evgenia competed in Nagano perhaps Michelle would get a better skate order and Tara wouldn't have the luck of skating right after Surya (who presumably would not have made the final group).

I think the reason we didn't see 3-3s in the short under 6.0 was the risk was too great. Any mistake in the SP typically doomed a skater's chance of gold, and maybe even a medal.

 

[Marco]

You consider a 1 event fluke who had the most controversial victory in skating history, so much so she was showered with death threats and hasnt shown her face outside of Russia in a competition since, and who was a super inconsistent jumper, to be a better skater and jumper than a girl who dominated the sport almost 3 years straight out of juniors? Are you being serious!?!?

Well Evgenia is definitely the better competitor considering her competitive history, but at their best, I do think Adelina circa 2014 would be the better skater. She had more speed, ice coverage, way more amplitude, equally great spins and (this is probably where you and I differ) better artistry and musicality. Adelina's skating to me was way more genuine and carried more purpose. I am not saying you or anyone else have to agree but there are people who may think that way. What I took away from Evgenia's performance in 2018 was that split second ina bauer; what I took away from Adelina in 2014 was the beautiful spiral she held towards the end (trying to forget about the waving).

I think the reason we didn't see 3-3s in the short under 6.0 was the risk was too great. Any mistake in the SP typically doomed a skater's chance of gold, and maybe even a medal.

Kudos to young Carolina in 2003/4. I guess it makes more sense for up and comers wanting to break through to try them.

Medvedeva's programs were designed for this specific version of the scoring system, and she did not do one specific thing that would score well in general and even Yamaguchi did, which was repeat the 3Lz in LP. She also did not do a 3Lz in the SP.

Also, both Tara and Michelle did 3Lz combo, 3F, 2A in the SP at some point in the 1997-98 season, which might have been seen as preferred to 3F-3T, 3Lp, 2A.

I remember that menality. Lutz reigns supreme. A lutz combo should trash a flip combo big time, but IMO not if it is a 3/2 vs 3/3. Evgenia did backload her jumps in the short and one 3/3 in the free, which were impressive, and don't forget she had way more complex spins than Tara (ironically Michelle's spins were somewhat complex too with a change combo spin and a deathdrop).

 

[savchenkoboss]

Well Evgenia is definitely the better competitor considering her competitive history, but at their best, I do think Adelina circa 2014 would be the better skater. She had more speed, ice coverage, way more amplitude, equally great spins and (this is probably where you and I differ) better artistry and musicality. Adelina's skating to me was way more genuine and carried more purpose. I am not saying you or anyone else have to agree but there are people who may think that way. What I took away from Evgenia's performance in 2018 was that split second ina bauer; what I took away from Adelina in 2014 was the beautiful spiral she held towards the end (trying to forget about the waving).



Kudos to young Carolina in 2003/4. I guess it makes more sense for up and comers wanting to break through to try them.

Fair enough but I dont like Sotnikova's skating even at her best, which I guess Sochi was her best ever, but I still wasnt that impressed to put it mildly, and I was 100% on board with the raging controversy over her win. Watching Asada, Kostner, Kim, and Sotnikova in the LP numerous times over I am 110% convinced she was the poorest of those 4 by a good margin, even if she was still really good. She is frantic, arm swinging constantly, doesnt interpret music for squat, her positions are mostly ugly and unpolished, she badly needs to work on her leg lines, extension, and most of all her posture, and her choreography is so busy and ridiculously over the top. I absolutely hated her interpretation of Camille Saint- Saens, I thought a 14 year old Kwan at the 95 worlds who wasnt even that artistic a skater yet did a far better job interpreting it. Her spirals and spins show flexability, and her spins are faster than say Kim and Kostner, but the positions are often ugly and sloppy, especialy her camel and biellmanns, and the spiral positions can be really ugly. Her jumps are really big, but I dont find they are great quality. How she got way higher GOE on her jumps than Kim whose jumps are just as high (minus the salchow I guess), have more distance actually, and WAY better in every other facet- air position, flow in and out, control, rotational quality, etc...shows how corruptive that event was. Her basic skating skills are decent, but far below Kim, Kostner, Asada, even below someone like Gold who has better speed and edging. To me she is like a way better version of Julia Soldatova, which given how much I cant stand Soldatova is not a compliment.

Even on Sotnikova's best day I honestly prefer Medvedeva's jumps, non jump elements, and defnitely her presentation to Sochi Sotnikova. Sotnikova jumps much higher/bigger, and probably has a bit better basic skating and better speed, but other than that I see no real advantage she has. Now looking at some of her pro performances I think Sotnikova's artistry has improved a ton since Sochi, maybe if she competed today I would prefer her artistry to Medvedeva.

Anyway everyone is entitled their opinion of course but the scores bear out Medvedeva being superior too. Her best free skates regularly score close to 160. Sotnikova's skate of a lifetime in Sochi didnt even reach 150, and everyone thought that was a blatant bogus overscore at the time to boot. I can see how some prefer Sotnikova for sure. She jumps much bigger, skates faster, is more exciting, and has a more mature look on the ice, but I dont, and I dont think the judges (the main ones who count) give any indication they do to. Even less if you account the obvious that Sochi was never in anyway, shape, or form a "normal" event, heck it was an event so corruptive in every sport Russia was semi banned from Pyeongcheng, so you cant say "oh she showed at her best she can even defeat Kim and Kostner going clean" as she didnt do this in a remotedly normal event, which every event Medvedeva has competed in is. The most she ever proved herself at a real event was being silver at Europeans a couple times, once behind Kostner, and once behind Lipnitskaia. With yes a missed chance to win both times, but only due to mistakes from Kostner both times. Events which at best had a semi respectable field but were missing a ton of top skaters from Japan, U.S, and of course Kim, and remember this was before Russia had even close to their 2015-2018 army and depth.

 

[Meoima]

You consider a 1 event fluke who had the most controversial victory in skating history, so much so she was showered with death threats and hasnt shown her face outside of Russia in a competition since, and who was a super inconsistent jumper, to be a better skater and jumper than a girl who dominated the sport almost 3 years straight out of juniors? Are you being serious!?!?

Talentwise, Sotnikova is wayyyy better than Med. She might not be a good competitor but she has all the better skating skills, better jumps and even her spins are good. I am not sure why some people have tried so hard to prove she was not good. In fact, she was very good and it was so unfortunate she did not have the chance to improve and fulfill her huge potential.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Talentwise, Sotnikova is wayyyy better than Med. She might not be a good competitor but she has all the better skating skills, better jumps and even her spins are good. I am not sure why some people have tried so hard to prove she was not good. In fact, she was very good and it was so unfortunate she did not have the chance to improve and fulfill her huge potential.

To each their own. The scandalous win aside, and just looking at skating, I honestly prefer Medvedeva's typical performance to even Sotnikova of Sochi, and I am no fan of Medvedeva. Sotnikova improved her artistry a lot since Sochi, maybe if she could ever put her jumps of Sochi with her artistry in pro events and tours I would favor her, but this never happened.

 

[Meoima]

To each their own. The scandalous win aside, and just looking at skating, I honestly prefer Medvedeva's typical performance to even Sotnikova of Sochi, and I am no fan of Medvedeva. Sotnikova improved her artistry a lot since Sochi, maybe if she could ever put her jumps of Sochi with her artistry in pro events and tours I would favor her, but this never happened.

Not a big fan of Adelina or Med skating either, but objectively speaking, Adelina was the better skater + jumper. Both of them at their best, Adelina would deserve higher GOE. Presentation-wise it depends on people so I have no comment on that.

 

[bardtoob]

I like Medvedeva's skating better than Sotnikova's skating ... Because it was good more than once.

 

[blue_idealist]

I agree with the OP that 2010 may have been the only season in which Med could've lost.

 

[berthesghost]

Agreed. In fact Med would have been so amazing at the 1908 olympics, Salchow would have taken off his gold medal and given it to her! Then the record books would show her as the only woman to have landed a 3/3 outside! Although I’m a little bit iffy about Med’s chances in ‘48, Barbara Ann had beaten her at the past two Europeans and you know how Med does at an Olys right after losing Euros...

 

[savchenkoboss]

Agreed. In fact Med would have been so amazing at the 1908 olympics, Salchow would have taken off his gold medal and given it to her! Then the record books would show her as the only woman to have landed a 3/3 outside! Although I’m a little bit iffy about Med’s chances in ‘48, Barbara Ann had beaten her at the past two Europeans and you know how Med does at an Olys right after losing Euros...

I specifically said seasons from 88 or earlier shouldnt even be considered since the jump content and competition rules were too different. So I am not even going to say if Medvedeva does or doesnt win in any of those. Probably not as I am pretty sure she would be down in figures until she was atleast 18.

 

[Coco]

You all remember that Yuna only had 6 triples and L3 steps, right?

In 2010 Olympic FS, she was a little early on her 2a3t pass, iirc, and didn't get the bonus. So she only had 2 triples in bonus time.

 

[savchenkoboss]

You all remember that Yuna only had 6 triples and L3 steps, right?

In 2010 Olympic FS, she was a little early on her 2a3t pass, iirc, and didn't get the bonus. So she only had 2 triples in bonus time.

Those are good points. Personally I think Yu Na should easily get higher GOE and PCS, but people need to remember Medvedeva is loved by the judges and she always gets huge GOE and PCS (deservedly or not). It took someone with a much higher base value in both programs (Zagitova) to finally stop her.

 

[Marco]

Agreed. In fact Med would have been so amazing at the 1908 olympics, Salchow would have taken off his gold medal and given it to her! Then the record books would show her as the only woman to have landed a 3/3 outside! Although I’m a little bit iffy about Med’s chances in ‘48, Barbara Ann had beaten her at the past two Europeans and you know how Med does at an Olys right after losing Euros...

Medvedeva is going to be so good at figures - she will be doing them while pretending to skip or reacting to a phone call or gasping... and most importantly, putting her arm over her head