U.S. Men 2025-26 Discussion - Quad God and the Mere Mortals

[Allskate]

Max N hit a 92 and Jacob scored almost 85 in the SP at Ice Challenge. I'm all for Max.

Max's short program is one of my favorites this season. I've been eager to see him skate it clean. I'm so glad he skated it so well!

ETA: Posting at the same time. Max's short program was already posted. Here's Jacob's:

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[mtnskater]

Max's short program is one of my favorites this season. I've been eager to see him skate it clean. I'm so glad he skated it so well!

My favorite of all the men’s short programs I’ve seen so far! Perfect for him.

 

[Karen-W]

Sigh for Jimmy and Torgy in the NHK short program.

It was good to see Raf traveled with Torgy…but it kind of seems Torgy competes extra nervy whenever Raf is at the boards.

I don't think Raf traveled for Torgy. It was a bonus, but I suspect his main motivation for traveling was Samodelkina.

 

[HeatherC]

Call me a softie or just sentimental but my heart hopes that Max gets that third spot for the Olympic team. I watched his most recent SP earlier tonight and it was absolutely gorgeous. After everything he has been through this year, just the fact that he's out there competing and skating his heart out shows so much strength, heart, and passion. He seems to be trending up with his programs now and I am LOVING it.

BTW-At US Nats in 2006, Matt Savoie shocked everyone by winning that third Olympic spot over veteran Michael Weiss (and I cried buckets in the crowd). At US Nats in 2026, I would LOVE to see Max have his own "Matt Savoie" moment and end up on that Olympic team (cue me crying again in the audience if that happens). Fun Fact: Where was US Nats in 2006? St. Louis, MO. Where is US Nats in 2026? St. Louis, MO.

 

[her grace]

Don’t even get me started on how many times Savoie was screwed out of a higher national placement due to others having more potential. Savoie more than earned that 2006 spot and probably should have finished 2nd at those nationals.

 

[Taso]

Max performed a beautiful SP to Nocturne No. 20, achieving a score of 92.81 (with a GOE of 2.18 for 4S)!!

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Oh wow that was absolutely beautiful. I forgot I was watching an IJS program. May he repeat similar skates again and again

 

[Private Citizen]

After Torgashev's performances on the GP, I'd say the third spot is WIDE open. I don't think any of the guys has a claim that they've done more than the others to warrant selection.

I'd put them all on equal footing: Torgashev, Hiwatashi, Naumov, Sanchez, Ma, even Pulkinen or possibly Kapeikis. If any of them is a convincing third (or second) at Nationals, send them. Body of work is a wash at this point, IMO.

 

[Capt. DeSoto]

[…] I don't think any of the guys has a claim that they've done more than the others to warrant selection […] Body of work is a wash at this point, IMO.

Agreed. If it keeps up like this through the end of the GP/CS season (not that there’s enough left to wow us), USFS should just come out and say that whoever among these men finishes highest at Nationals gets the third spot. Period, no backsies. Skating might even get a little bump in public mindshare if NBC hypes up the stakes in their advertising.

 

[Karen-W]

Agreed. If it keeps up like this through the end of the GP/CS season (not that there’s enough left to wow us), USFS should just come out and say that whoever among these men finishes highest at Nationals gets the third spot. Period, no backsies. Skating might even get a little bump in public mindshare if NBC hypes up the stakes in their advertising.

I wouldn't. That defeats the whole purpose of shifting to BOW which is intended to reward consistency. At this point, clearly Hiwatashi is the only US man who has done so through the heart of the season - and the poor score he had at Cranberry doesn't even really count for much since it was early August and everything he has done since then has been solidly the top-scoring US man apart from Malinin and Brown.

Telling the rest of the men that it's okay they've gone out there and shit the pan repeatedly at competition after competition this fall, and that if they have just one great competition at Nats to get on the Olympic team sends a terrible message to future aspiring Olympians.

If I was the USFS, I'd be quietly expressing pleasure and support for Hiwatashi.

 

[TanithandBenFan]

Well, Max just beat Tomoki’s best score from Cup of China so…..

He’s also been improving with each outing. I think it’s a two man race at this point.

 

[Karen-W]

Well, Max just beat Tomoki’s best score from Cup of China so…..

He’s also been improving with each outing. I think it’s a two man race at this point.

LMAO. Did you actually WATCH Max or Jacob's skates from IceChallenge? That was some VERY generous judging for both of them. Any other comp this season and they would have both been at least 10 points lower.

Also, Max's 'best' score at this Sr B is a mere .99 higher than Tomoki's best score at a GP. There's a reason why the USFS' Selection Pool Calculation Table takes into consideration not just highest scores but also average scores. Max is still 58 points behind Tomoki on points alone. FWIW - Torgy is ahead of Tomoki by 40 points.

Here's what the USFS' Men's Selection Pool Calculation Table currently looks like with several more weeks left in the fall competitions to go:

Skater

Level

2024 U.S. Nats

GPF / JGPF

GP/ JGP 1

GP/ JGP 2

GP/ JPG Highest

GP/ JGP Avg

CS/ Sr B/ Jr Int 1

CS/ Sr B/ Jr Int 2

CS/ Sr B/ Jr Int Highest

CS/ Sr B/ Jr Int Avg

Sect Final (Top 2 in each Section JR/SR)

NQS Score (Top 2 in each Section JR/SR)

Non-USFS Funded Event

Prev Yr Final Number

Total

Brown, Jason

S

0.00​

0.00​

257.81​

249.30​

257.81​

253.56​

0.00​

0.00​

5​

522.98​

Endo, Goku

S

0.00​

0.00​

198.20​

198.20​

99.10​

206.76​

229.11​

0​

433.18​

Hiwatashi, Tomoki

S

245.71​

230.58​

245.71​

238.15​

236.71​

237.11​

237.11​

236.91​

0.00​

0.00​

0​

1019.61​

Kapeikis, Liam

S

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

201.94​

227.45​

227.45​

214.70​

0.00​

0.00​

0​

388.47​

Kazanecki, Lucius

S/J

202.67​

219.63​

219.63​

211.15​

175.70​

168.92​

0.00​

206.31​

0​

892.45​

Klein, Joseph

S

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0​

0.00​

Kovar, Kai

S

0.00​

0.00​

189.91​

192.63​

192.63​

191.27​

0.00​

0​

336.08​

Ma, Jimmy

S

208.56​

208.56​

104.28​

207.53​

218.52​

218.52​

213.03​

0.00​

0.00​

6​

859.34​

Malinin, Ilia

S

321.00​

333.81​

333.81​

327.41​

306.65​

245.32​

306.65​

275.99​

0.00​

0.00​

16​

1580.16​

Martynov, Daniel

S

0.00​

0.00​

153.00​

217.20​

217.20​

185.10​

0.00​

0​

356.03​

Mindra, Samuel

S

0.00​

0.00​

198.73​

198.73​

99.37​

203.47​

213.49​

0​

428.36​

Naumov, Maxim

S

226.74​

181.39​

226.74​

204.07​

223.43​

246.70​

246.70​

235.07​

0.00​

0.00​

0​

961.51​

Pulkinen, Camden

S

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

2​

30.00​

Sanchez, Jacob

S/J

221.21​

176.97​

221.21​

199.09​

223.14​

235.89​

235.89​

229.52​

0.00​

0.00​

0​

933.40​

Savary, Emmanuel

S

0.00​

0.00​

182.65​

182.65​

91.33​

0.00​

0​

251.14​

Sedlis, Jared

S

0.00​

0.00​

139.71​

111.77​

139.71​

125.74​

0.00​

0​

234.01​

Shinohara, Taira

S/J

0.00​

0.00​

213.90​

213.90​

106.95​

210.47​

0​

346.73​

Strommer, Beck

S

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0​

0.00​

Torgashev, Andrew

S

233.36​

212.01​

233.36​

222.69​

239.54​

191.63​

239.54​

215.59​

0.00​

234.45​

2​

1059.90​

Xie, Michael

S

0.00​

0.00​

200.07​

198.70​

200.07​

199.39​

0.00​

0.00​

0​

349.61​

 

[Kateri]

I think they should say it's strictly by Nationals results because A.) as others have said, there's nothing much separating BOW, and B.) it will make Nations even more stressful than usual, so the winner will be whoever handles stress best, which is what you probably want on the Olympic team.

 

[Jammers]

It's not like Tomoki is Adam Rippon from 2018 and has the competition results to deserve the third spot if he finishes 4th behind Max or Torgy that they should send him to the Olympics. Adam was a multiple GP medalist and had made the last two GP finals Hiwatashi has no such claim to back him up.

 

[Karen-W]

I think they should say it's strictly by Nationals results because A.) as others have said, there's nothing much separating BOW, and B.) it will make Nations even more stressful than usual, so the winner will be whoever handles stress best, which is what you probably want on the Olympic team.

LOL. Hitting it once at Nats isn't proof that any skater is able to deal well with stress. They've all been put under stress this fall with the expectation that they demonstrate a BOW to merit selection for the Olympic team.

I'm all for giving the spot to whomever finishes 3rd at Nats, but I see no value in the USFS changing its stated selection process or shifting away from BOW as a consideration for the Int'l Committee. That undermines everything the USFS has tried to do to produce good, consistent results from all of their athletes over the course of the season. These guys all know they're neck-and-neck at this point and they'll be feeling the pressure to deliver at Nats.

 

[Barbara Manatee]

I think the USFS has to stick to the procedure it announced going into the season. It would be unfair to the skaters and damaging to the organization to change the rules in the middle of the game. If the men stay so closely bunched, it'll be whoever gets on the podium at Nationals anyway.

 

[TanithandBenFan]

LMAO. Did you actually WATCH Max or Jacob's skates from IceChallenge? That was some VERY generous judging for both of them. Any other comp this season and they would have both been at least 10 points lower.

Also, Max's 'best' score at this Sr B is a mere .99 higher than Tomoki's best score at a GP. There's a reason why the USFS' Selection Pool Calculation Table takes into consideration not just highest scores but also average scores. Max is still 58 points behind Tomoki on points alone. FWIW - Torgy is ahead of Tomoki by 40 points.

Here's what the USFS' Men's Selection Pool Calculation Table currently looks like with several more weeks left in the fall competitions to go:

Skater

Level

2024 U.S. Nats

GPF / JGPF

GP/ JGP 1

GP/ JGP 2

GP/ JPG Highest

GP/ JGP Avg

CS/ Sr B/ Jr Int 1

CS/ Sr B/ Jr Int 2

CS/ Sr B/ Jr Int Highest

CS/ Sr B/ Jr Int Avg

Sect Final (Top 2 in each Section JR/SR)

NQS Score (Top 2 in each Section JR/SR)

Non-USFS Funded Event

Prev Yr Final Number

Total

Brown, Jason

S

0.00​

0.00​

257.81​

249.30​

257.81​

253.56​

0.00​

0.00​

5​

522.98​

Endo, Goku

S

0.00​

0.00​

198.20​

198.20​

99.10​

206.76​

229.11​

0​

433.18​

Hiwatashi, Tomoki

S

245.71​

230.58​

245.71​

238.15​

236.71​

237.11​

237.11​

236.91​

0.00​

0.00​

0​

1019.61​

Kapeikis, Liam

S

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

201.94​

227.45​

227.45​

214.70​

0.00​

0.00​

0​

388.47​

Kazanecki, Lucius

S/J

202.67​

219.63​

219.63​

211.15​

175.70​

168.92​

0.00​

206.31​

0​

892.45​

Klein, Joseph

S

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0​

0.00​

Kovar, Kai

S

0.00​

0.00​

189.91​

192.63​

192.63​

191.27​

0.00​

0​

336.08​

Ma, Jimmy

S

208.56​

208.56​

104.28​

207.53​

218.52​

218.52​

213.03​

0.00​

0.00​

6​

859.34​

Malinin, Ilia

S

321.00​

333.81​

333.81​

327.41​

306.65​

245.32​

306.65​

275.99​

0.00​

0.00​

16​

1580.16​

Martynov, Daniel

S

0.00​

0.00​

153.00​

217.20​

217.20​

185.10​

0.00​

0​

356.03​

Mindra, Samuel

S

0.00​

0.00​

198.73​

198.73​

99.37​

203.47​

213.49​

0​

428.36​

Naumov, Maxim

S

226.74​

181.39​

226.74​

204.07​

223.43​

246.70​

246.70​

235.07​

0.00​

0.00​

0​

961.51​

Pulkinen, Camden

S

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

2​

30.00​

Sanchez, Jacob

S/J

221.21​

176.97​

221.21​

199.09​

223.14​

235.89​

235.89​

229.52​

0.00​

0.00​

0​

933.40​

Savary, Emmanuel

S

0.00​

0.00​

182.65​

182.65​

91.33​

0.00​

0​

251.14​

Sedlis, Jared

S

0.00​

0.00​

139.71​

111.77​

139.71​

125.74​

0.00​

0​

234.01​

Shinohara, Taira

S/J

0.00​

0.00​

213.90​

213.90​

106.95​

210.47​

0​

346.73​

Strommer, Beck

S

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0​

0.00​

Torgashev, Andrew

S

233.36​

212.01​

233.36​

222.69​

239.54​

191.63​

239.54​

215.59​

0.00​

234.45​

2​

1059.90​

Xie, Michael

S

0.00​

0.00​

200.07​

198.70​

200.07​

199.39​

0.00​

0.00​

0​

349.61​

Yes I did watch. Sorry, I’m not going to read all that.

 

[Karen-W]

Yes I did watch. Sorry, I’m not going to read all that.

So, basically, you want Max on the team and aren't willing to consider that your data set that puts him on the team is flawed?

 

[clairecloutier]

I think they should say it's strictly by Nationals results because A.) as others have said, there's nothing much separating BOW, and B.) it will make Nations even more stressful than usual, so the winner will be whoever handles stress best, which is what you probably want on the Olympic team.

A good argument against this is Max's own history. He has three consecutive pewter medals at U.S. Nationals (and there were many who wanted him higher at some of those Nationals), but until this week's IceChallenge, he was basically unable to get close to those results anywhere other than U.S. Nationals.

 

[TanithandBenFan]

So, basically, you want Max on the team and aren't willing to consider that your data set that puts him on the team is flawed?

I’m saying I don’t think Tomoki is head and shoulders above any of the other guys, and I’m tired of your attitude so bye.

 

[Karen-W]

I’m saying I don’t think Tomoki is head and shoulders above any of the other guys, and I’m tired of your attitude so bye.

LOL. Yah... I get it. Most of FSU is predisposed to root for Torgy and/or Naumov and really don't care for anyone pointing out that neither of those guys are doing anything any different this season than they've done in the past. But, I'm the one with the "attitude" because I pointed out that neither Max nor Jacob would have scored as high at a GP for what they actually put out on the ice today.

I've consistently stated that I don't think Tomoki is "head and shoulders" above any of the other guys. All Max and Jacob did today was put themselves a bit more firmly in the discussion again.

Don't you fret, though, I'm sure that you and other posters who love Torgy & Naumov will be satisfied with the Nats results when one or both of them defeat Tomoki and snag that 3rd spot.

 

[miffy]

I’m feeling torn…. I’ve rooted for Tomoki since he was in juniors but it’s not a nice feeling (now he’s done all he can) rooting for others to not do well and beat him!

Maxim’s score was good, I didn’t see his skate but I was shocked to see the protocol - it did seem generous scoring. But I’d be happy for him if he had some good fortune this season, even though I’d love for Tomoki to go to the Olympics.

I think I’d be ok with going with Nationals results, especially if someone has an amazing skate there.

 

[PRlady]

The only guy on the list I don’t find discouraging is Sanchez, who’s young and still new to Seniors and needs solid ultra-C jumps. If he gets them, he’s a front runner next quad.

The others I agree have never finished high consistently in international competition. Torgy at Worlds last year was a mess. Naumov I respect for continuing to skate after a terrible loss but this isn’t Queen for a Day where the saddest story gets the prize. Tomoki still biffed his final two spins at CoC.

I’m hoping for a convincing Nats bronze or even silver medalist - Jason is beatable with excellent performances and landed quads. It won’t matter much in the long run anyway.

 

[Rukia]

tbh i don't really care who gets the 3rd spot they're all just as likely to do as well or as bad as the next, but I'm giving Tomoki the edge just because he's been pretty consistent at comps this year (but also i won't cry if any number of other people get it like i just think they're all fine)

 

[TanithandBenFan]

LOL. Yah... I get it. Most of FSU is predisposed to root for Torgy and/or Naumov and really don't care for anyone pointing out that neither of those guys are doing anything any different this season than they've done in the past. But, I'm the one with the "attitude" because I pointed out that neither Max nor Jacob would have scored as high at a GP for what they actually put out on the ice today.

I've consistently stated that I don't think Tomoki is "head and shoulders" above any of the other guys. All Max and Jacob did today was put themselves a bit more firmly in the discussion again.

Don't you fret, though, I'm sure that you and other posters who love Torgy & Naumov will be satisfied with the Nats results when one or both of them defeat Tomoki and snag that 3rd spot.

This isn't about the men's third spot debate. You have a nasty attitude on more than just this topic. There's a way to express an opinion and disagree without being rude or dismissive about it.

 

[jlai]

LOL. Yah... I get it. Most of FSU is predisposed to root for Torgy and/or Naumov

I don't root for Naumov or Torgy. None of them have a body of work that stands out. So I'm with whoever thinks nationals may end up being the deciding factor, not because the rules of the game changed, but because the bow points for all these guys are about the same.

Tomoki did a teeny bit better this season but none of them are doing well enough that they will be on the O team over someone in top 3 at nationals

 

[Private Citizen]

I think the USFS has to stick to the procedure it announced going into the season. It would be unfair to the skaters and damaging to the organization to change the rules in the middle of the game. If the men stay so closely bunched, it'll be whoever gets on the podium at Nationals anyway.

Agreed. I don't think anyone was saying to change the procedure. I believe people were saying that, according to the criteria, the men are so tightly bunched that whoever finishes highest is likely to get the nod. If the USFS were to formally announce this (doubtful / hypothetical), I'd take it as saying BoW analysis has produced an effective draw at this point. Which seems reasonable to me.

I do think the unimaginable tragedy that Naumov experienced warrants some consideration. He has done enough to be considered if he beats the others, IMO. He should have but didn't have more opportunities last season, including at 4CC. If his season got off to a slower start, well there's a damn good reason for it. He should be the scored the same way as anyone else, but if he beats them fair and square, then I think his BoW is sufficient.

 

[Karen-W]

This isn't about the men's third spot debate. You have a nasty attitude on more than just this topic. There's a way to express an opinion and disagree without being rude or dismissive about it.

And popping in here to tout a generous score for a skate that you watched is disingenuous & blatantly exposes your own biases in the conversation by proclaiming it's a "two-man race at this point" because Max's scores have been improving as the season has gone on... Okay, going from 223.43 at CS Lombardia to 226.40 at GPdF to 246.70 at IceChallenge (with its Mordavian Ornament-esque scoring, thanks @SidelineSkater for asking that question after the SP) shows a clear trajectory of improving scores over the course of the last two months - or it shows that he got lucky once this month and will revert back to the mean later on this month at Tallinn Trophy.

I wasn't even attacking Max alone in my initial response as I also pointed out that Jacob's score was overly generous for what he put out on the ice today. Could I have not led with "LMAO"? Sure, but your post didn't seem to imply that you were doing much more than looking at the results page which is disrespectful to the entire debate that has been going on over the last month or so about the 3rd men's spot - which has involved a LOT of people being overly dismissive of Hiwatashi's actual results both in this thread and the GP pbp threads because he's not their preferred skater.

Everyone knows that my preferred skater for that 3rd spot going into the start of the season was Sanchez, so you'd think I'd be thrilled here today with his IceChallenge score. Instead, I'm being honest about the scoring at that event and it would be nice if other posters like you were willing to be equally dispassionate about the scores of their preferred skaters instead of getting their panties in a bunch because I'm being "rude" or "dismissive" in calling out their clear biases.

Again, for the record, I don't think the 3rd men's spot is likely to deviate from whomever finishes 3rd at Nats (presuming Ilia & Jason are 1-2) unless that 3rd place finisher is Camden and it's a close finish with whomever is 4th. And even then, the Int'l Committee may very well just say "eff it" and give Camden the spot since none of the other US men have really set themselves apart from the pack.

 

[Capt. DeSoto]

I think the USFS has to stick to the procedure it announced going into the season. It would be unfair to the skaters and damaging to the organization to change the rules in the middle of the game. If the men stay so closely bunched, it'll be whoever gets on the podium at Nationals anyway.

Yes. I know I said (paraphrasing): "USFS should just say 'whoever wins nats takes it all' due to similar BoW and recent lack of standout performance", but you're right... they have to stick to the rules that they previously laid out. With that being said, I think they need to turn up the pressure and lay it on the line for everyone vying for spot #3. They should run the numbers, then come out and say something like: "If one these guys finishes with an X point lead over the others, then they're going to the Olympics!".

Turn up the pressure for Nationals, because the Olympics are also going to be high pressure with the eyes of the world on them. Everyone wants someone who is going to rise to the challenge in a way they haven't really been doing.

 

[Allskate]

Can we talk about Jimmy Ma? That new free program is bonkers. It's like he's competing to be the poster child for children of the void rather than competing for a spot on the Olympic team. Does he really think that is a good competitive program or did he just give up and decide to have some fun, so he threw together some muzak with a mash of Raining Men, Macho Man, and YMCA? Maybe he's just been watching too many RDs.

Well, Max just beat Tomoki’s best score from Cup of China so…..

He’s also been improving with each outing. I think it’s a two man race at this point.

I think they should say it's strictly by Nationals results

Max is my favorite skater of all these guys who are in contention for the third spot and have skated this season, and I would love to see him at the Olympics. And, even though Tomoki isn't one of my favorites, I noted last week that I think he has made a stronger case so far this season than the other guys.

But, I don't see how this is a two man race between Max and Tomoki.

If both Tomoki and Max were to implode at Nationals and one of these other guys trounced them, I don't think USFS should just send whoever does better between Max and Tomoki.

But, that's not because I think BOW shouldn't be counted. The rules are there and need to be followed. One competition - Nationals or otherwise - is not to be the sole consideration. Announcing that they are going to just throw out the rulebook would be wrong.

However, I do think that Nationals is going to be a significant factor for the third spot. (Let's be real; Ilia could fall on every single jump and still make the team.) Not because they will throw out the rules considering BOW. The reason that Nationals is going to be such a significant factor is precisely because of the body of work. None of these guys has a BOW that makes a conclusive case for the third spot. Torgy has won over Max when they have competed against each other over the last year. Unfortunately, Torgy has also melted down spectacularly. Worlds in particular was a total disaster. Max won IceChallenge (and had a gorgeous short program), but his free skate was not impressive and winning one random event that had inflated scores and a weak field is not a basis for making him a frontrunner, IMO.

Four of the American guys competed this weekend, and none of them had a very good long program. That includes Max. I don't think that long program would have won over all of Tomoki's long programs. It's not like Tomoki has lit the skating world on fire. But, at this point, if Jimmy somehow managed to eke out a narrow bronze over Tomoki at Nationals, I could see the argument for sending Tomoki to the Olympics.

 

[AYS]

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I do think the unimaginable tragedy that Naumov experienced warrants some consideration. He has done enough to be considered if he beats the others, IMO. He should have but didn't have more opportunities last season, including at 4CC. If his season got off to a slower start, well there's a damn good reason for it. He should be the scored the same way as anyone else, but if he beats them fair and square, then I think his BoW is sufficient.

I suspect you're not the only one who thinks this, including among those who count (ie, decision-makers).