War in Israel

Vash01 said:
All this because they all believed Hamas more than they believed Israel. They were never neutral.

It does complicate the hostage situation though.

Also, if they really wanted to do something about the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, they would not have canceled in such a knee jerk way.
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You make great points. Someone on Twitter pointed out that they almost instantaneously sided with Hamas claims as if it had been planned. I know Twitter can bring out the crazies.

I'm not sure why they had such a knee jerk reaction, but you're right, it's not helpful.
 
becca said:
Why would Hamas attack one of the working hospitals they might need?
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:wall: It's really hard to take you at all seriously when you post nonsense like this. Nobody here is saying that it was Hamas and nobody is saying that Islamic Jihad deliberately attacked the hospital.

I hope this thread doesn't get derailed as a result of nonsense like this.
 
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NPR today said that Egypt & Jordan have refused the possibility of any refugees from Gaza.

(This article would seem to corroborate that:
thehill.com

Jordan, Egypt unwilling to take Palestinian refugees, king says

Jordan and Egypt will not accept Palestinian refugees amid the war between Israel and Hamas in Gaza, Jordanian King Abdullah II said Tuesday. “This is a situation that has to be handled within Gaza…
thehill.com thehill.com
 
Neither Egypt nor Jordan want a million refugees in their poor countries. Additionally Hamas is part of the Muslim Brotherhood outlawed in both countries and there would certainly be Hamasniks in the crowd. So as people attack Israel for trying to eradicate Hamas, they should keep in mind that none of the Arab neighbors want them either.
 
Well, it doesn't look promising, does it? :lol:

Regarding the hospital - my initial reaction is to assume it was IDF, but then Israel has history of taking the responsibility even when attacks were a mistake, politically or militarily. This time IDF denies it and provides some evidence, so I am leaning towards believing. However, it doesn't matter, of course, because people have already picked sides and won't move regardless of what happens on the ground. As I said, I'd be content even if people avoid chanting "Death to Israel", really can't hope for more than it. Sadly, even (allegedly) Jihad's self inflicted damage plays to the hands of the worst players in the Middle East.

I assumed we'd have two weeks of sympathy, ok, we'll settle for a week and a half :lol:
 
becca said:
Israel cannot afford a war with 1 billion Muslims.
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Well 1 billion Muslims, and several morons who support them as some sort of gotcha against western countries and certain others, don't forget. This entire incident is showcasing just how little trust one should be placing in certain corners.
 
I saw a clip of an angry crowd gathering outside of a US base in Turkey. My hope it is old footage but somehow I think not…
 
It feels like WWI right now. Things just roll. There's one event that just is started due to some miscalculation, and then it escalates further and further, and no one is really interested in it, but can't or won't back down.

It started with completely insane decision of Putin who vastly miscalculated the results of his invasion; no one needed that, including himself, but now no one knows how to stop it, and things just escalate. Then Iran became the only ally of Russia, and this axis was created. Then Hammas vastly miscalculated its attack, and here we get another escalation, and it's again among the same lines Russia-Iran-Hammas vs. West, so the division deepens more. The attempt to deescalate it failed due to another rather random event - this explosion in the hospital that wasn't even necessarily IDF's fault, but it doesn't matter - the result is another escalation. Absolutely no one wants it, including Hezbollah, Hammas or whoever else, but it just happens anyway. I wonder whether Karabakh is somehow part of it too.

Waiting for Iran to decide whether they want to attack on our north border, and waiting for China to attack Taiwan. And if either of these happens, we're officially in the two axis against each other and a full scale WWIII.
 
becca said:
Plus it was one big explosion. Hamas has weapons they don’t have weapons that big.
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Oh, I already heard this, when the MH-17 plane was shot down in 2014 over the Donetsk region. And the so-called separatists also said that they do not have such weapons. But the problem is that when you have a strong terrorist ally, then having certain weapons ceases to be a problem.
I don't know who hit the hospital, but I'm sure both Hamas and Islamic Jihad have a lot of new weapons.
 
Massive pro Palestinian protests outside the Israeli consulate yesterday. They were chanting loudly for hours and had their faces covered. I saw anti U.S. and Israeli signs. There were both pro Palestinian and pro Israeli protests at U of T yesterday as well.
 
I follow so many I/P “experts” on ex-twitter and all their claims uphold their preconceptions.

Me, I ask who gains most from the hospital bombing. Since it is very much in Hamas/IJ interest to disrupt the now defunct Biden meetings with Jordan and the PA, if forced to choose I’d pick them. But I’ve got my own preconceptions and I don’t trust the IDF spokespersons as far as I can throw them.

So like everybody else except the perpetrators, I don’t know who did it. Or if, since some photos are altered, it was even done to the extent being claimed.
 
Frau Muller said:
This “The Day of Unprecedented Anger” thing is scary.
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We have these every Monday and Friday. Literally. It's always some immam calling for a "Day of Rage" and then we have another stone throwing brigade on one of the WB roads. This time I expect some burned Israeli and US flags in the Muslim states, calls to expel the ambassadors and chants of "Death to Israel". It's super tiring.

I also envy people who have so much free time and Israeli flags on their hands, they can just gather in tens of thousands everywhere and spend a day having fun. Israelis have been protesting for 9 months (and then some 3 years before), but it was always on Saturday eve, because we have to work...
 
Andrey aka Pushkin said:
We have these every Monday and Friday. Literally. It's always some immam calling for a "Day of Rage" and then we have another stone throwing brigade on one of the WB roads. This time I expect some burned Israeli and US flags in the Muslim states, calls to expel the ambassadors and chants of "Death to Israel". It's super tiring.

I also envy people who have so much free time and Israeli flags on their hands, they can just gather in tens of thousands everywhere and spend a day having fun. Israelis have been protesting for 9 months (and then some 3 years before), but it was always on Saturday eve, because we have to work...
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I was relieved on getting up this morning that this kind of thing was all that was being reported, as opposed to more dangerous actions.
 
The response of Egypt, Jordan, and Abbas was so quick, it made it feel planned in advance. I'm not in anyway suggesting they had anything to do with it. I'm just sharing my knee jerk response.

As for who benefits, Hamas, obviously. Another Israeli alliance is threatened. First, Saudi Arabia and now this Who's next?

I also think King Abdullah benefits. He's been beating the drum beats of war with Israel for a while now. He's been talking about redlines long before now, mostly in response to events on Temple Mount.
 
Also this post is from Ilia Ponomarenko, who reports on the war in Ukraine:

"Serious question: is it even possible to clear debris and establish the number of fatalities after such a short period of time following an attack? 500? 700? 900 dead? How do they know so early?

From our own experience in Ukraine as we had dozens killed in devastating Russian missile attacks on concert halls/shopping malls/apartment blocks, that should realistically take at least many hours."


----

I'm thinking the speed and likely inaccuracy of reporting were too conveniently timed for Hamas with the start of Biden's trip.

My heart goes out to any innocent civilians and medical/aid workers caught in this disaster, regardless of any inaccurate reporting; though I hope the previously posted thread is correct and the hospital was not as damaged as reports implied.
 
Andrey aka Pushkin said:
I also envy people who have so much free time and Israeli flags on their hands, they can just gather in tens of thousands everywhere and spend a day having fun. Israelis have been protesting for 9 months (and then some 3 years before), but it was always on Saturday eve, because we have to work...
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:lol:
 
I work out at the YWCA of San Juan, PR, which is closed today due to protests going on in front of the next-door Jewish Cultural Center (a gorgeous building designed by a pupil of Frank Lloyd Wright):

 
Lynn226 said:
The response of Egypt, Jordan, and Abbas was so quick, it made it feel planned in advance. I'm not in anyway suggesting they had anything to do with it. I'm just sharing my knee jerk response.

As for who benefits, Hamas, obviously. Another Israeli alliance is threatened. First, Saudi Arabia and now this Who's next?

I also think King Abdullah benefits. He's been beating the drum beats of war with Israel for a while now. He's been talking about redlines long before now, mostly in response to events on Temple Mount.
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King Abdullah does not benefit. He knows he cannot win a war with Israel. Someone said they spoke with a Jordan king either him or his father about how quickly Israel troops could enter Israel. They know they cannot win a war which is why they have peace.

Half of his population and his own wife and kids are Palestinians and so he has to try and curtail the anger of his population.

Egypt also doesn’t benefit they can barely feed their population they don’t want war with Israel. There trying to control the Islamists in their own country.

But what all of them have been trying to say is that Israel’s actions toward the Palestinians in the past few have made it harder and harder to control their populations anger.

But the idea that these rich Arab leaders who get a ton of money from the West want their populations to get that much in arms.

Abdullah has no choice right now but to speak harshly towards Israel.

His previous harsh words were to toe the line of look my people I am angry to while trying to keep the peace he needs to keep his power.

Abdullah is one of the biggest losers in this conflict. He cannot win either way
 
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Buzz said:
Massive pro Palestinian protests outside the Israeli consulate yesterday. They were chanting loudly for hours and had their faces covered. I saw anti U.S. and Israeli signs. There were both pro Palestinian and pro Israeli protests at U of T yesterday as well.
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We had the first one in Ottawa Sunday. Both pro Israel and pro Palestine. There will be more but thankfully no violence. It’s such a polarizing issue. Hopefully the embassy staff can work from home for safety reasons like all the embassies did during the Covid lockdowns.
 
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becca said:
King Abdullah does not benefit. He knows he cannot win a war with Israel. Someone said they spoke with a Jordan king either him or his father about how quickly Israel troops could enter Israel. They know they cannot win a war which is why they have peace.

Half of his population and his own wife and kids are Palestinians and so he has to try and curtail the anger of his population.

Egypt also doesn’t benefit they can barely feed their population they don’t want war with Israel. There trying to control the Islamists in their own country.

But what all of them have been trying to say is that Israel’s actions toward the Palestinians in the past few have made it harder and harder to control their populations anger.

But the idea that these rich Arab leaders who get a ton of money from the West want their populations to get that much in arms.

Abdullah has no choice right now but to speak harshly towards Israel.

His previous harsh words were to toe the line of look my people I am angry to while trying to keep the peace he needs to keep his power.

Abdullah is one of the biggest losers in this conflict. He cannot win either way
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This response is so puzzling...

Ok, so Jordan and Egypt don't want to have a war with Israel, because Israel is stronger, and they have their population to feed.
But it makes a perfect sense to do so for the Palestinians, because, apparently the Israeli army is not an issue, and they obviously don't have anyone to feed. :confused:

Why would Jordan and Egypt would even want to have a war? They don't have any dispute with Israel, for f*ks sake, are we in this world now, when it's expected countries to start wars just because?

And the real question here is why since 2005 the Palestinians got billions of dollars, endless amounts of aid, every political support on the planet, and yet all they did with it culminated last Saturday, and that is somehow acceptable and Israel's fault. How people look at this and continue the same mantra is absolutely beyond me. Yes, the WB is a mess, and that's Israel's fault to a great degree. But Gaza is self-govern, there's no Israeli military or civilian presence. Seriously now, what in anyone's eyes would end the blockade of Gaza faster - developing their infrastructure, industry, civil services; or barraging Israel with rockets every couple of months??? Yeah, yeah, EVILLE Israel cuts Gaza from electricity... WhyTF Israel even has to supply Gaza with electricity, why in 18 years they didn't bother to build their own electric plant??? That in fact WAS part of the disengagement plan, making Gaza self sustainable in the terms of energy, why da f.k that didn't happen, evil Israel, I presume??? But somehow that incredible idea doesn't cross the relevant minds.

Grrr...

Greetings from TLV :lol:
Another depressing (but in a good way) meet up with Mrs. and Mr. PRLady and TAHbKA. Gosh, we're old enough and engaged enough to talk politics :fragile:
 
Andrey aka Pushkin said:
It feels like WWI right now. Things just roll. There's one event that just is started due to some miscalculation, and then it escalates further and further, and no one is really interested in it, but can't or won't back down.

It started with completely insane decision of Putin who vastly miscalculated the results of his invasion; no one needed that, including himself, but now no one knows how to stop it, and things just escalate. Then Iran became the only ally of Russia, and this axis was created. Then Hammas vastly miscalculated its attack, and here we get another escalation, and it's again among the same lines Russia-Iran-Hammas vs. West, so the division deepens more. The attempt to deescalate it failed due to another rather random event - this explosion in the hospital that wasn't even necessarily IDF's fault, but it doesn't matter - the result is another escalation. Absolutely no one wants it, including Hezbollah, Hammas or whoever else, but it just happens anyway. I wonder whether Karabakh is somehow part of it too.

Waiting for Iran to decide whether they want to attack on our north border, and waiting for China to attack Taiwan. And if either of these happens, we're officially in the two axis against each other and a full scale WWIII.
Click to expand...

Earlier I had thought that Russia May be involved in a way, because it would be a distraction, and the US won't be able to give that much help to both Israel and Ukraine.

My brother once said (long ago) that if there is WWIII, it is likely to start in the Middle East.

The world could be on the brink of WWIII, though I don't think anyone - including politicians- wants it. Our whole planet could be destroyed in a nuclear war. Hopefully this will bring some kind of awakening.
 
Dobre said:
Also this post is from Ilia Ponomarenko, who reports on the war in Ukraine:

"Serious question: is it even possible to clear debris and establish the number of fatalities after such a short period of time following an attack? 500? 700? 900 dead? How do they know so early?

From our own experience in Ukraine as we had dozens killed in devastating Russian missile attacks on concert halls/shopping malls/apartment blocks, that should realistically take at least many hours."


----

I'm thinking the speed and likely inaccuracy of reporting were too conveniently timed for Hamas with the start of Biden's trip.

My heart goes out to any innocent civilians and medical/aid workers caught in this disaster, regardless of any inaccurate reporting; though I hope the previously posted thread is correct and the hospital was not as damaged as reports implied.
Click to expand...

The coincidence was noticeable. Biden was making a trip to the Middle East and talking to leaders there to find a solution. Suddenly this hospital is attacked, with reports of 'hundreds dead'. The summit gets canceled.

Who doesn't want a solution? - Hamas, Islamic Jihad. Their goal is to destroy Israel. They are not looking for peace.

There has to be more to that hospital attack/explosion than a quick blame on Israel.
The IDF did some work to find out what May have happened. Hamas did none.
 
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I think it's unlikely to be WW3 because I'm sure there will be a push for deescalation with some of the things that have gone down currently.

And the questions about why they never did this and never did that... well, there was a post on PI, that I agree with. They never wanted just what they were given. They always wanted all of Israel.

The response from people blaming Israel is somewhat more complex. Partly anti-semitism, and partly guilt over mishandling past issues with the middle east and the projection onto every other issue that follows thence. And partly a manifestation of messiah complex, where the rhetoric yet again gets centered almost entirely over a single country and what the people in it think about issues dealing with other countries that are seas away... A manifestation, for example, is the inability to view Muslims as anything more than an oppressed group simply because they're oppressed in that particular country, and the associated belief that they lack any autonomy because of this.
 
Vash01 said:
The coincidence was noticeable. Biden was making a trip to the Middle East and talking to leaders there to find a solution. Suddenly this hospital is attacked, with reports of 'hundreds dead'. The summit gets canceled.

Who doesn't want a solution? - Hamas, Islamic Jihad. Their goal is to destroy Israel. They are not looking for peace.

There has to be more to that hospital attack/explosion than a quick blame on Israel.
The IDF did some work to find out what May have happened. Hamas did none.
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I reckon it is claimed that was a misfire from the Jihad. If so, this wasn't timed.
Said that:
MsZem said:
The US assessment of the hospital blast concurs with Israel's:

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WHAT? Is that the epicenter of the explosion that killed 491 people??? Really? 10 burnt cars, with a couple of other ones near with their windshields in tact?

Ok, now I'm calling BS. My initial thought was IDF hit the wrong target, wouldn't be first time. Now I'm absolutely adamant this has nothing to do with an airstrike, and the numbers passed by the Palestinians are nonsense.

ETA:
Yes, it is. Ok, seriously now.

www.bbc.com

Biden backs Israel's account of deadly Gaza hospital explosion

Israeli and Palestinian officials have blamed each other for the blast in which hundreds may have died.
www.bbc.com

Look at the video. One can see the volume of the damage. It's not even in any of the buildings. What an absolute pile of crap. And then I especially appreciate the people evacuated on the ambulances. Two men holding their heads in perfectly clean clothes and no signs of any injuries and a confused boy.

I call BS. How can BBC report the numbers and the horrors of destructions related to this hospital hit, and publish this video that contradicts the report in the same article?
 
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