My thinking was that the IDF wanted to disable the infrastructure, so that Hamas could not operate.
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War in Israel
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Andrey aka Pushkin
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Nah.
It's more of a kneejerk reaction and an attempt to show any action on the Israeli government's side, as they failed miserably to show any compentence. It is counterintuitive that Israel supports electricity, water and food to Gaza, while these try to murder as many Israelis as possible. However, from the practical standpoint, cutting them out has zero positive effect.
Andrey aka Pushkin
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Oh, I read a article about him today. What a...character. He was employed at a chocolate factory or something in Israel, and one day kidnapped his Israeli employer. When realising it's impossible to keep a hostage without getting caught eventually, he murdered him. Got sentenced to life, but was released in Shalit deal.
I think after this attack the whole idea of prisoners exchange might be re-evaluated. It appears most of the organisers on Hammas side were released from the Israeli prisons. Glad I don't have to make decisions here.
MsZem
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The aftermath of the Jibril Agreement didn't stop future exchanges...
Andrey aka Pushkin
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Given the circumstances, I think every decision made in the last 18 years is going to be scrutinized and called a mistake, even the ones that aren't.
But, seriously. I mean, I don't necessarily agree with anything "the other side" says, because I'm not suicidal, but I can understand a lot of things. I understand why the Palestinians are fighting us, I am well aware Israel is not blameless, etc etc etc. But it's possible to fight an enemy and still recognise their bravery, honour, principles and so on. But these guys? They are just ... ewwwwwgh.
Cachoo
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Warning: some disturbing photos but this article details some the operation. Hamas had a lot of intel:
www.nytimes.com
The Secrets Hamas Knew About Israel’s Military (Published 2023)
Hamas gunmen surged into Israel in a highly organized and meticulously planned operation that suggested a deep understanding of Israel’s weaknesses. Here is how the attacks unfolded.
Desperado
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Warning: some disturbing photos but this article details some the operation. Hamas had a lot of intel:
The Secrets Hamas Knew About Israel’s Military (Published 2023)
Hamas gunmen surged into Israel in a highly organized and meticulously planned operation that suggested a deep understanding of Israel’s weaknesses. Here is how the attacks unfolded.
“The Israeli military says that, once the war is over, it will investigate how Hamas managed to breach its defenses so easily.”
I really hope that’s BS and they’re looking for leaks now because if not, the damage could be ongoing.
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I truly hope this is not paywalled.
My husband and I know every activist quoted in this article and it’s so painful. It’s hard to be a humane secular humanist when humanity is showing its worst side.
The Tangled Grief of Israel’s Anti-Occupation Activists
https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/the-tangled-grief-of-israels-anti-occupation-activists
Meanwhile, Israel’s great writer David Grossman wrote a heartbreaking piece in the Financial Times I can’t link to, I saw it in a PDF. He predicts the outcome of this is an Israel that is more right-wing, militarist and racist…and I’m thinking how much more of that is even possible.
My husband and I know every activist quoted in this article and it’s so painful. It’s hard to be a humane secular humanist when humanity is showing its worst side.
The Tangled Grief of Israel’s Anti-Occupation Activists
https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/the-tangled-grief-of-israels-anti-occupation-activists
Meanwhile, Israel’s great writer David Grossman wrote a heartbreaking piece in the Financial Times I can’t link to, I saw it in a PDF. He predicts the outcome of this is an Israel that is more right-wing, militarist and racist…and I’m thinking how much more of that is even possible.
Hedwig
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that is very sobering when I think about how right-winged it already was/is and how many dangerous structure (like extreme aid for the ultra religious and so on) already exist :-(
It is, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. As I mentioned above, it is very hard to think clearly when you've just suffered a horrible terrorist attack. But, I think Biden is right to urge restraint. I keep thinking about the American response to 9/11. Although Iraq did not attack the World Trade Center, I think the war in Iraq would not have happened without the grief and anger from 9/11. Obviously, Hamas did commit the atrocities in Israel, but that doesn't mean that there aren't similar issues at play. Countries do dumb and catastrophic things when they are making decisions in the midst of rage and grief as a result of a terrorist attack. It was not only the decision to go to war in Iraq but also the planning (or lack thereof) and execution that were bad. The War in Iraq made things worse for us, not better, and resulted in so much death.
I realize that it is hard to know exactly where to draw the line, though, and not simply capitulate or make things even worse. What do you do when you want to take out the terrorists' military infrastructure and rescue hostages but Hamas hides amongst civilians and uses civilians and their schools, hospitals, etc. as shields? What do you do when you think time is of the essence to stop the shelling and rescue hostages, but you risk even more lives (including Israeli ones) and it is critical to securely get humanitarian aid to the right people? What do you do to prevent a vicious cycle and even greater horrors for your people and for civilians in other parts of the region? Like @Andrey aka Pushkin I'm glad I don't have to make the decisions. There is no appealing choice.
What are the rules of war and how do you comply with them?
France Bans Pro-Palestinian Demonstrations Ahead Of Escalation In Gaza
Demonstrators who turned out Thursday night in Paris were dispersed by police.
How does Israel get its hostages back and damage Hamas military structure, but also make sure it's not walking into a trap and making things worse for everyone, including themselves?
Hamas was 'laying a trap' for Israel by attacking, and is goading it to invade Gaza: Ex-MI6 chief
Sir Alex Younger said that Hamas was seeking to get Israel involved in an attack on Gaza that could cost thousands of lives and drive radicalization.
www.businessinsider.com
Andrey aka Pushkin
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Well, first and foremost: boo hoo. I might have gotten leftier on some issues, but I still think these organisations are bordering on the "useful idiots" territory. It's very nice to have an academic discussion about humanism and whatnot, but it's worth admitting the reality at times. "Shovrim shtika" and "Betselem" have a long history of twisted facts and lies to make themselves look more righteous. And oh-ah, what a shock, the Palestinian counterparts denounce violence only when it's the Israelis against the Palestinians, how could it be. So once again, boo hoo.
On the other hand, at the risk of sounding optimistic, I don't agree with the other part either. There are two parts I see. 1: the extreme left might indeed dwindle, and I'm talking Betselem here, no drama from me. But 2: it's pretty hard to move to the right, because the right is what is in the government right now, and unless there's a new right wing movement that distances itself from these clowns, I don't sense a mass exodus in their direction.
Talking about which, this could have been the high hour for Mansour Abbas, who could have showed some leadership, denounced Hammas, offered cooperation and gave a lovely speech full of doves and roses, but somehow it isn't happening either. Now that would've created a new perception. If you recall (or was it only Mr.PRlady?), I said one thing that bothers me a lot, is how the Israeli right makes its plans completely disregarding the free will of the other side. But it's true about the Israeli left too. We can talk about the bad-bad Israelis who elect one horrid government after the other, but I am yet to see the Palestinians really making a step in the direction of actual peace. It takes two for a tango, and we currently have zero.
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once_upon
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I know that 99.9% of my understanding of what is happening in this war is because I dont live in therefore is unable to comprehend the depth of this war. I do know that I have connections, albeit internet, to some citizens/people living in the area. Therefore my allegiance lies with Israel. And a desire for peace. Please, I pray, that you stay alive.
But I also wish for the babies and other innocent on the Gaza territory is also spared.
But I also wish for the babies and other innocent on the Gaza territory is also spared.
It is, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. As I mentioned above, it is very hard to think clearly when you've just suffered a horrible terrorist attack. But, I think Biden is right to urge restraint. I keep thinking about the American response to 9/11. Although Iraq did not attack the World Trade Center, I think the war in Iraq would not have happened without the grief and anger from 9/11. Obviously, Hamas did commit the atrocities in Israel, but that doesn't mean that there aren't similar issues at play. Countries do dumb and catastrophic things when they are making decisions in the midst of rage and grief as a result of a terrorist attack. It was not only the decision to go to war in Iraq but also the planning (or lack thereof) and execution that were bad. The War in Iraq made things worse for us, not better, and resulted in so much death.
I realize that it is hard to know exactly where to draw the line, though, and not simply capitulate or make things even worse. What do you do when you want to take out the terrorists' military infrastructure and rescue hostages but Hamas hides amongst civilians and uses civilians and their schools, hospitals, etc. as shields? What do you do when you think time is of the essence to stop the shelling and rescue hostages, but you risk even more lives (including Israeli ones) and it is critical to securely get humanitarian aid to the right people? What do you do to prevent a vicious cycle and even greater horrors for your people and for civilians in other parts of the region? Like @Andrey aka Pushkin I'm glad I don't have to make the decisions. There is no appealing choice.
What are the rules of war and how do you comply with them?
France Bans Pro-Palestinian Demonstrations Ahead Of Escalation In Gaza
Demonstrators who turned out Thursday night in Paris were dispersed by police.www.yahoo.com
How does Israel get its hostages back and damage Hamas military structure, but also make sure it's not walking into a trap and making things worse for everyone, including themselves?
Hamas was 'laying a trap' for Israel by attacking, and is goading it to invade Gaza: Ex-MI6 chief
Sir Alex Younger said that Hamas was seeking to get Israel involved in an attack on Gaza that could cost thousands of lives and drive radicalization.
I can't help thinking that someone is helping Hamas plan this attack/war. Hamas must have known that committing atrocities would result in the strongest attacks on Hamas. They must also know that the USA will help Israel. Unless Hamas knows that someone Big will come to Hamas's help, they wouldn't dare doing what they did. Right now I think Hamas has the upper hand, mainly because they planned the whole thing.
Using human shields in Gaza and hostages was a brilliant (though disgusting) strategy on the part of Hamas. I really hope Israel wins this war and peace follows for all.
I agree. Iran has government officials who traveled to Lebannon. It seems too sophisticated for Hamas. It's so much more than they've accomplished before. Iran is maybe using Hamas as a proxy to start a war with Israel and/or the United States.
Here is an article about what it would take for Israel to really go after Hamas in Gaza and what the law of war requires. Realistically, though, even if Israel tried hard to comply with the laws of war while Hamas deliberately and continually violated the laws of war, there still would be propaganda and humanitarian problems:
www.nytimes.com
Here is an interview with Senator Booker about his trip to Israel and his discussions with leaders from Arab countries (watch until the end). I admire him for trying, even if the odds are long:
www.youtube.com
Opinion | What It Would Mean to Treat Hamas Like ISIS
The rules of war are quite explicit about what has to happen.
Here is an interview with Senator Booker about his trip to Israel and his discussions with leaders from Arab countries (watch until the end). I admire him for trying, even if the odds are long:
Sen. Booker: We must stand with Israel and Ukraine unequivocally
Sen. Cory Booker, D-NJ, discusses taking shelter while in Israel during Hamas' attack, U.S. support for Israel and the current Republican chaos in the House ...
www.youtube.com
Hamas leaders knew that most of the Hamas leaders would not die but Palestinian civilians would die. I wouldn't be surprised if they planned to use civilian deaths and suffering as propaganda to increase their power and prevent any chance of peace or reduction in tensions. Most of the government leaders in the Arab world don't like Hamas. Whether or not Hamas got Iranian assistance when planning and carrying out the attack last week, I think they might have done it anyway.
What was so sophisticated about last week's attack? I think Hamas would have been more interested in money from Iran and help in the coming days from Iran, Hezbollah, etc. to splinter Israel's capacity.
Random thoughts.
Does anyone know where Hamas gets their funding from? It has many members, I but it is still like a small country. I heard they have bought lots of weapons from Iran. Where do they get the money from?
I really hope this war does not spread. If other nations attacked Israel right now, it is going to be a really big war, because the US May get pulled into it, though not physically ( I am still assuming that the US does not want a war).
I think the hatred toward Israel is going to spread. Even though Israel did the right thing to respond strongly after the October 7 massacre of innocent civilians, I am afraid the Palestinians will continue to hate Israel. The siege of Gaza will not be forgotten for a very long time.
Does anyone know where Hamas gets their funding from? It has many members, I but it is still like a small country. I heard they have bought lots of weapons from Iran. Where do they get the money from?
I really hope this war does not spread. If other nations attacked Israel right now, it is going to be a really big war, because the US May get pulled into it, though not physically ( I am still assuming that the US does not want a war).
I think the hatred toward Israel is going to spread. Even though Israel did the right thing to respond strongly after the October 7 massacre of innocent civilians, I am afraid the Palestinians will continue to hate Israel. The siege of Gaza will not be forgotten for a very long time.
Andrey aka Pushkin
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I have my theory.
I don't think Hammas planned to be so successful. I think they tried a rush-attack sending thousands of badly prepared random men in all direction, assuming most of them would be killed on the spot, and a small percentage manages to infiltrate and take a hostage or two. This would also stop the talks with the Saudis and brought the same Palestinian rallies everywhere. But Israel failed miserably, and all of them got through, causing the levels of havoc that can't be just ignored.
It is also noteworthy, most of the terrorists weren't Hammas militants at all, but rather random guys who came to pillage and murder. I don't know whether both groups acted differently in any way, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did. So it is possible Hammas just didn't anticipate the consequences, either it has a back up or not.
Pete Davidson giving a serious introduction & commentary on this week's events prior to Saturday Night Live.
(His father died during 9/11).
(His father died during 9/11).
Andrey aka Pushkin
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Qatar, Iran, donations. I don't know how they get it through, because Israel AFAIK controls the money transfers, but there have been stories about suitcases with millions in cash from Qatar Bibi allowed in.
Also, drugs and people trafficking.
Oh, yes, because beforehand...
I think whatever plan anyone might have, including peace initiatives, diplomacy and "Free Palestine" rallies, one must understand that Palestinians will always hate the Jews and the Israelis. It's a given. But with the exception of the extreme left lunatics, I believe everyone operated within this assumption anyway.
TAHbKA
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Not really. There are lots of theories, one of the papers claims there was a massive crypto transaction from Russia jsut before (or was it after) the fact. Partly - from the donations that are supposed to make the Palestinians' lives easier, but instead end up in Hamas' hands, partly, of course, Iran.
Till the next big shiny toy. Till there is a new autrocity in the world and within 10 minutes it will all be forgotten. Am not sure whether it will be NKorea or China or Russia to do so, but really Hamas hadn't done anything that the Russian army hadn't done in Bucha. The writing is the same.
Continuing after the sirens and the explosions and running to the shelter: The palestinians will continue to hate Israel because hating themselves would be a bit too hard.
Andrey aka Pushkin
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Ah, yes, crypto. Makes sense. That's probably how they transfer it.
TOADS
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If Iran had a hand in this, I think it is time to help the opposition in Iran that hate the Mullahs.
Start a bonfire in their yard and give the mullahs a big problem.
Start a bonfire in their yard and give the mullahs a big problem.
@Allskate
It was a well planned op over a long period of time. Usually, they just fire a barrage of rockets. That's what I mean by more sophisticated.
This article talks about Hamas planning and training.
www.reuters.com
It was a well planned op over a long period of time. Usually, they just fire a barrage of rockets. That's what I mean by more sophisticated.
This article talks about Hamas planning and training.
How Hamas duped Israel as it planned devastating attack
While Israel was led to believe it was containing a war-weary Hamas by providing economic incentives to Gazan workers, the group's fighters were being trained and drilled, often in plain sight, a source close to Hamas said.
You get the matches, I'll get the tinder.
just tuned in
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If this is true -- that Iran is trying to start a war with the U.S. -- I blame Trump -- and news media -- for discussing documents about the U.S.'s strategy for war with Iran.
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I think it’s pretty clear that the looming (possible) Saudi deal was why this was activated now. And Iran is the biggest loser in that deal. Although Hamas Palestinians are Sunni and Iranians are Shia, it seems not to matter when it comes to wiping out Israel or killing Israelis.
Name the time and place. I'll be there, too.
I wasn't being serious lol. As much as countries like those disgust me, the solution isn't supporting the opposition, destabilizing yet another country, and seeing even more civilians die.
I know. It's just I feel like I can't do anything useful.
My friends would have a difficult time imagining me doing anything like that. I was always chosen last for sports teams in guy class. ?
Me too.
I'd be pretty useless at starting fires in Iran.I, too, feel powerless watching and reading the updates. I've given money to orgs but just like with Ukraine, I feel like no matter how much I give, it's not enough.
