The Heir, The Spare and the “Baby Brain” -The Prince Harry and Meghan show rumbles on…

[Simone411]

Small point, but Harry doesn't have a "royal robe." The robes that were worn were by those who have been named to the Order of the Garter or the Royal Victorian Order, and Harry is neither of those (he probably would have been named to the Order of the Garter in time once Charles became king, if he had stayed a working royal, but he likely won't now). And Harry has no uniform to wear, he is not a serving member of the military and does not hold any honorary positions. He was dressed as all other members of the family were, in a morning suit with medals he has earned. There are questions about whether Andrew should have been allowed to wear his Garter robe (I would say not, but no one asked me), and there are definitely questions about the whole uniform/no uniform thing around Philip and the Queen's funerals (hashed to death a hundred times over), but not for the coronation.

Edit: I'm wrong, and I'll admit it. I should have looked it up before posting, Harry is a member of the Royal Victorian Order but he's a "Knight Commander" not a "Knight Grand Cross," so perhaps no robe?

I'm with you, but I do wonder why no robe for a Knight Commander. I believe both are pretty significant but then again I don't know very much about the Royal Victorian Order.

 

[canbelto]

I always find the business with the military uniforms and robes for royals really costume-y. They are not the uniforms people get for actual years of service. It's really a pretentious form of dress-up and make-believe.

 

[MacMadame]

But then the lawyers sent them a letter and here's the quote: "We hereby demand that Backgrid immediately provide us with copies of all photos, videos, and/or films taken last night by the freelance photographers after the couple left their event and over the next several hours."

So now Backgrid isn't playing so nice any more, sending back a snarky reply that included this quote: "In America, as I'm sure you know, property belongs to the owner of it: Third parties cannot just demand it be given to them, as perhaps Kings can do. Perhaps you should sit down with your client and advise them that his English rules of royal prerogative to demand that the citizenry hand over their property to the Crown were rejected by this country long ago. We stand by our founding fathers."

H&M have really bad lawyers, don't they?

Clearly, the trauma of how his mother died (and the way she was pursued by photographers for decades before) shapes Harry's world view. How could it not? What might seem insignificant or "not that bad" to others would be a trigger for him. I can totally see how he would "overreact" to this kind of stuff.

Is it an overreaction though? (I see you put it in quotes so this is more a question for others.)

The thing is, he knows that paps chasing his mother led directly to her death. Maybe after the fact, people can look at this particular situation and say it wouldn't have happened here even if H&M hadn't gone to a police station. But how could they know that? And definitely, the way the paps were driving could have led to someone getting hurt and pretty easily really. (The police said in their original statement that several police officers might have been injured; Team H&M didn't make that up.)

This kind of driving is not safe, especially in NYC. That no one was injured is as much luck as anything else and doesn't prove that H&M weren't right to be worried and afraid.

Ngl, I find Harry's attitude that Meghan needs complete protection from any cameras kind of patronizing. Before Meghan met Harry, she would have been used to walking the red carpet at awards shows and movie premieres. She would have probably chatted with a few favorite celebrity reporters. There is nothing sinister about any of this.

But that's not what they are upset about. They were upset about a car chase where multiple vehicles followed them for a long time and pulled up beside them to take pictures in an unsafe manner.

I always find the business with the military uniforms and robes for royals really costume-y. They are not the uniforms people get for actual years of service. It's really a pretentious form of dress-up and make-believe.

Being against monarchies, the only thing I care about is that Prince Andrew gets absolutely no public attention or honors. No robes, no wearing of medals, earned or otherwise, etc., etc.

 

[miffy]

They need to watch it with Backgrid otherwise it might just come out who allegedly has them on Speed Dial ?

The press are also being less kind after all this, and are starting to hint that Harry doesn’t spend much time at home (it’s been rumoured for quite a while, but the press have actually been quite kind up till now IMO).

 

[overedge]

The other factor is that in some respects they need that media attention to make a living. Yes, they produced one of the highest rated shows in Netflix history, but it was about them. It wasn't because they're great producers - maybe they are, but there are also very successful Netflix producers who you wouldn't recognize on the street. I honestly don't know how they can balance the public attention their business model seems to need, and that Meghan seems to thrive on, with Harry's fear of the paps and anger toward the media.

 

[overedge]

Ngl, I find Harry's attitude that Meghan needs complete protection from any cameras kind of patronizing. Before Meghan met Harry, she would have been used to walking the red carpet at awards shows and movie premieres. She would have probably chatted with a few favorite celebrity reporters. There is nothing sinister about any of this.

Exactly. She had a blog. She took on public roles (like UN charity ambassador) that involved media coverage. She gave public speeches. She had a public partnership with a clothing retailer. So yes, she wanted that kind of attention. According to Tom Bower's book, FWIW, she actively sought it out and was angry when she thought that other actresses were getting the charity/promotional gigs that she thought she deserved. Even though in Bower's opinion she wasn't offering much more beyond "women should be empowered" and "racism and poverty are bad". (<---I'm not saying that these things are trivial, they're not, but Bower's point was that there were already plenty of public figures promoting these causes.)

As I said I get why Harry is super protective and paranoid about media attention, and why he might have an overly cautious perspective. But somehow he and Meghan have to find a balance between him feeling safe and her wanting, or needing, media coverage.

 

[ballettmaus]

I've said before (in this very thread probably) that it seems to me that all of his choices and actions now are about protecting and saving his wife in a way he couldn't protect and save his mother. What seems to be challenging, though, is that his wife seems to want the celebrity lifestyle. She wants to go to parties and award ceremonies and lunch in fancy restaurants with celebrity friends and, yes, be photographed (I'm not criticizing her for that, I just think it's obvious she likes the perks that come with being rich and famous and there's nothing wrong with that). I feel like they almost sabotage each other some times, he's in England suing the newspapers for breach of privacy and she's in LA tipping off the paparazzi that she's going hiking with friends. This "catastrophic chase" by paparazzi has now completely overshadowed the award she won. I wonder how much friction it causes between them.

I agree with much of your assessment and it sounds very unhealthy in many different ways.

 

[starrynight]

I think posters above have summed up what drives me nuts about this whole thing.

A hundreds a million a year famous for being famous career requires so much media spotlight.

It’s such an uneasy situation to be half doing the celebrity thing and then on the other hand totally freaking out about media attention. Look at me, don’t look at me sort of thing. I think the freaking out is coming from Harry. I think they need to pick a lane.

Perhaps them trying to do this jointly isn’t going to work.

If Meghan is keen to get into the driver’s seat with the celebrity career perhaps Harry just needs to stay at home and let her get on with it.

Because any positive impressions Meghan could have got from that nice gold dress and photos with her mother from the awards ceremony have been totally erased away by these negative hyperbolic reactions to the paparazzi.

They are entering a new phase in their public lives. The book and TV show is released - probably everything they have to say about Harry’s family is said. So they need to choose how to go forward from here.

 

[Karen-W]

There are two issues, IMO, regarding the press/media.

1) the trauma Harry experienced due to his mother's death and the role of the media/paparazzi in that trauma. It is not only the accident itself, but also the aftermath in the boys being trotted out in front of Balmoral to view floral tributes to their mother; the walking in the funeral cortege with their dad, uncle and grandfather; and the general press intrusion/interest in the lives of the British Royal Family.

Harry has come through all of that with a very cynical view of the role the press plays in the popularity of the BRF as well as how the BRF interacts/negotiates with the media - and it is understandable to an extent. The media can either splash those negative stories all across the broadsheets or they can hush them up. He has, IMO, experienced this from both sides of the equation - the Nazi costume, the drugs, the Vegas stripping incident are the negative, but the cheeky, Harry the Lad, Invictus Games etc are the positive.

Ultimately, he has come to believe that the BRF have far more power and control over the press and what is printed about them than is true. I suspect he very firmly believed, by the time he and Meghan started dating, that all it would take was some strongly worded letters from Buckingham Palace, Clarence House and Kensington Palace to those media entities to put an end to the truly terrible (and racist) headlines. The truth is, that the relationship between the press and the BRF is symbiotic and while I'm sure Harry grasps this, considering what he wrote in Spare about Camilla, he absolutely refuses to accept that this is the way it is and he alone cannot change it.

That leads us to

2) both Harry and Meghan want to control their press coverage. They do not WANT the negative stories and, I'm quite sure, came to believe, that they knew better than the KP, BP and CH communications teams. They chafed at the negative stories and Harry convinced himself that there were other, nefarious actors within the BRF at work, aiming negative press attention onto he and Meghan in exchange for positive press attention for those others (Charles/Camilla and William/Kate).

So, their grand plan was hatched to fly the coop and set off for America to control everything, except they didn't expect to be cut off financially and have to really do a lot to earn money.

Now, Meghan understands how the Hollywood press machine operates, and she's perfectly fine in that environment, except that they're, right now, leaning into the victimhood culture and how aggrieved they are. Which would be fine if they really were done that wrong, but every time they've opened their mouths in the last 2+ years to tell us their "truth", they've run up against fact-checkers who are more than willing to call them out on any exaggerations or outright lies, especially when it comes to the BRF as an institution.

And, now, we have multiple incidences of their "truth", well... varying from other people's recollections. Both of them still seem very determined to keep on sharing their "truth" and attempting to control the press. I'm not sure when, if ever, they are going to realize that this is futile. There will be positive stories and there will be negative stories. The best you can do, as a public figure, is cultivate good relationships with those journalists and you do that through your staff - both communications and security and learning how to tune out the ugly stuff and just get on with the work you find important, empowering and relevant.

 

[puglover]

Harry and Meghan have so very much going for them but one can't help but wonder if they are having much fun at all. Great, strong, healthy bodies, a companion you really admire and love so much, two beautiful, healthy children, a gorgeous home in one of the most desirable locations on earth, money to buy anything you want, friends who lend you their mansion and have your back even though they haven't known you long, freedom from inherited responsibilities to pursue your own interests - yet still the negatives seem more substantial than the pluses. With all the recent money they have made and continue to make off the book, etc., I think it might make sense to take their beautiful family, find a quiet place with at least less pressure and exposure than California and NYC, and just enjoy the things of real value that they have. I know there is no real escape for them but surely there are better options out there.JMHO.

 

[Judy]

Ngl, I find Harry's attitude that Meghan needs complete protection from any cameras kind of patronizing. Before Meghan met Harry, she would have been used to walking the red carpet at awards shows and movie premieres. She would have probably chatted with a few favorite celebrity reporters. There is nothing sinister about any of this.

Pretty minor in though compared to now.

 

[Mugs]

Anyone who defends obvious lies about H&M is called an uber. I certainly don't think they can do no wrong. And the withdrawal from public life could have been handled much better. But did you have to insult my reading comprehension in order to make your points? How sad. FTR when I quote someone but then want to make some further points I make a new paragraph. Surprise! Everything is not about you.

(This is a new thought, not replying to you.) I have read numerous reports of the paparazzi "attack". The details seem to change with each new article. Before long it will be clear that M&H lied about the whole thing just to get attention. I have personally seen 2 different elite skaters put at risk by crazed fans & aggressive photographers. In both cases the look of terror in their eyes was chilling. The idea that M&H invite this type of behavior is ludicrous. (To me anyway, YMMV.) When I support them I'm not being an uber, I'm being fair I think or maybe naive.

I referred to you as an M&H uber fan based on many of your past posts, which immediately defend M&H without much thought or reflection that perhaps M&H's side of a given story isn't wholly or partially accurate. Also, your posts reflect a strong dislike of the BRF.

In one of your responses, you concluded that I think M&H have no right to body autonomy. That is utterly ridiculous; I literally never mentioned body autonomy. You are now revising history and stating that your responses were not directly related to my post, when in fact they were. And now you are inferring that I'm pathetic and have an oversized ego. Seriously?

I don't think any of us expect that all other posters will agree with our posts, either completely or in part. But I do believe each of expect to not have our posts hijacked and used to accuse us of actions or thoughts that were not part of our posts. I don't wish to argue. As I previously stated, you have the right to your opinions but you do not have the right to exaggerate, embellish and editorialize my thoughts and statements to fit your agenda.

 

[canbelto]

I really wonder what kind of therapy Harry has been getting all these years, because it doesnt seem to help. No matter where he goes he seems to be angry, miserable, resentful, paranoid, bitter.

 

[taf2002]

@Mugs, how the f**k do you know that I post without thought or reflection? FTR I don't hate the RF. I don't have much respect for Charles or Camilla or Andrew but I pretty much like the rest of them. But you obviously don't have much respect for H&M so what the hell are you doing here? Just to troll?

 

[ballettmaus]

I really wonder what kind of therapy Harry has been getting all these years, because it doesnt seem to help. No matter where he goes he seems to be angry, miserable, resentful, paranoid, bitter.

Apparently, the therapy he received is not without controversy. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...l-trauma-therapy-called-emdr-it-worked-for-me

What they describe would drive me nuts. If it works for Harry or not, I don't know. From what you read, I have my doubts but maybe he feels different? But also, how can the poor guy know that the therapist has his best interest in mind and doesn't just want the money?

 

[once_upon]

Not that my opinion means diddley squat to anyone, but I'm bored.

Harry's been traumatized all his life to one extent or another.

- Every sibling I know in the world feels like he/she are not treated as special as their other siblings. In this case, it happens to be true - not only with the BRF but all of UK - since he was not the anointed one.

- All of UK, ever since Harry showed up being a red head, wondered silently and some vocally if Harry was really KC's son. I can only imagine what "maybe I'm not KC's son" thoughts were triggered, if as rumored KC, asked about skin color of any of H/M children. No matter how it was said, could trigger a feeling that once again he is an embarrassment to KC and really not part of the accepted BRF

- you can't control your children's feelings, no matter what. KC may very well tried to love both sons equally, but William being the chosen one would always get more of the attention of the BRF. I dont know, but I imagine Diana was the only one who made Harry feel secure and loved. Not that others didn't try, but perhaps the feeling Harry had.

- the debacle of Diana's funeral and marching two young boys with a good ole stiff upper lip was, in my estimation, the absolute wrong way to deal with her death/funeral. Putting the whole damn world above the needs of the sons.

- I still contend that the BRF teaches a security first and foremost for the Princes, thus creating a sense of fear of the world. The world is out to harm you attitude-which creates paranoia. Then added to that is the ongoing play of the chase/death scenes. Which I'm sure he replays all the time, it certainly got lots of play time then and at least yearly at the anniversary of her death. Some children by their very nature are anxious - add to that the years and years of training to be on the outlook for danger. I can't imagine that he would not be fearful all the time.

- I still contend that William could have done better by Harry. If he was telling Harry to slow down with relationship-I can tell you as a mom of three sons, one of which wants everything he sees his brothers have-this probably would be the absolute worst thing ever to do or say. Regardless, I suspect Harry was also hearing the biological clock ticking.

- Harry found Meghan. Suddenly EVERYONE had an idea on who he should be in a relationship with and to BRF it wasn't her. The world should just shut up and let their relationship flower or flounder by itself. They won't, but they should.

- I dont care who is or is not telling the facts on the car chase, because my interpretation is not their lived experience - which does matter to the story. Are H/M going to die in a car crash being dogged by paparazzi? Probably not, but maybe. Harry's lived experience that it happens. In his experience it happened 100% of the time to the woman he loved most in the world. So, in his mind it will happen 100% of the time again. I'm not sure many or any of you can believe this, but I can totally see Meghan trying to calm him down. I had a daughter in law who always had to talk my son down when he was anxious/fearful. But if you are prone to hate Meghan, you probably can't see that.

-people love a good "meow" cat fight with women. Camilla - Diana, Kate - Meghan, Kate - Camilla. Because somehow it won't make good headlines if you don't.

- again American here..but I would never bow to my father in law and mother in law. I dont care who they are. And I certainly not to my husband when he becomes King. But I'm American so I don't see the need to beg for protection and pledge my undying allegiance to a figurehead.

- I dont care if Camilla is Queen or not, but frankly her official coronation photograph is a bit off putting. Every other photograph of QE at her coronation or KC's are very somber. Her's is more the OTT smiling. I guess every young girl dreams of being a Queen someday, it just took her 70 or more years to get there

 

[canbelto]

Apparently, the therapy he received is not without controversy. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...l-trauma-therapy-called-emdr-it-worked-for-me

What they describe would drive me nuts. If it works for Harry or not, I don't know. From what you read, I have my doubts but maybe he feels different? But also, how can the poor guy know that the therapist has his best interest in mind and doesn't just want the money?

It's actually sort of well documented that extremely rich, famous people tend to get awful medical care because they have doctors who are in it for the money. See: Elvis Presley, Michael Jackson, and the doctors who kept writing them drug prescriptions.

 

[once_upon]

Apparently, the therapy he received is not without controversy. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...l-trauma-therapy-called-emdr-it-worked-for-me

What they describe would drive me nuts. If it works for Harry or not, I don't know. From what you read, I have my doubts but maybe he feels different? But also, how can the poor guy know that the therapist has his best interest in mind and doesn't just want the money?

I think EMDR is a bunch of bull hockey,

 

[kwanfan1818]

I dont care if Camilla is Queen or not, but frankly her official coronation photograph is a bit off putting.

I think the blackamoors in the background are more off-putting than her expression.

 

[ballettmaus]

- All of UK, ever since Harry showed up being a red head, wondered silently and some vocally if Harry was really KC's son. I can only imagine what "maybe I'm not KC's son" thoughts were triggered, if as rumored KC, asked about skin color of any of H/M children. No matter how it was said, could trigger a feeling that once again he is an embarrassment to KC and really not part of the accepted BRF

I never thought about this before but I think that is a good point. Even if Harry wasn't consciously aware of it as a child and even if he was reassured that he was Charles' son, there likely was always some uncertainty in his mind once he realized that both his parents weren't exactly faithful. And he most certainly didn't want that for his children.

- you can't control your children's feelings, no matter what. KC may very well tried to love both sons equally, but William being the chosen one would always get more of the attention of the BRF. I dont know, but I imagine Diana was the only one who made Harry feel secure and loved. Not that others didn't try, but perhaps the feeling Harry had.

There is also the fact that while Harry likely had an easier childhood with less expectations than William, he may not have seen it as something positive. It's possible that it gave him the feeling of being less important. (eg, they didn't care about what he was doing). We all say he was lucky but children perceive things differently than adults do.

I wouldn't be surprised if William was (subconsciously) envious of Harry's liberties while Harry was (subconsciously) envious of William's "importance". And it's very likely that this led to misinterpretations of what was said once Harry had found Meghan (eg, when William suggested Harry wait, Harry could have interpreted it as jealousy because for once, the attention would be on Harry). The brothers could probably benefit from some sort of professional mediation.

I think EMDR is a bunch of bull hockey,

Maybe some find it helpful but consider me not convinced.

In any case, Harry gives me the impression that he might easily fall victim to therapists who don't have his best interest at heart. I really think he wants to get better, so he probably wants to believe in a certain method and/or that something is helping when someone tells him it is etc. I mean, there was also that weird live-stream diagnosis which I'm not entirely sure what that was about.
But this is just another one of those examples of why I don't envy him and wouldn't want to trade places with him or any of his family members for anything in the world. As a little girl, being a princess always sounded appealing. As an adult, it most certainly does not!

 

[Barbara Manatee]

I think the blackamoors in the background are more off-putting than her expression.

Those candelabras caused a bit of a sensation but it turns out they aren't blackamoors, but women sculpted in black marble. The person who originally called them out has deleted her tweet and clarified -

Dr Shola Mos-Shogbamimu

@SholaMos1

I stand corrected if these are not Blackamoor statues behind Camilla as I thought but of Weeping Women.

 

[overedge]

To be fair, we don't know what is going on behind the scenes security-wise, and what sort of threats Harry and Meghan have received and how credible those are. I'm sure that as public figures they genuinely need security. But I also think of the stories about them actively scrolling through social media and looking for critical comments about themselves, and Harry insisting IIRC that he needed more security than the standard BRF security when he visits the UK.

I guess you can't be too careful, but I also find it hard to believe that Harry is more at risk than the rest of the BRF. And actively seeking out criticism of yourself is not healthy if you're already suspecting that someone somewhere is planning to get you. That's what you hire security for, to collect and assess those kinds of "threats".

 

[puglover]

Well, Princess Anne was very nearly kidnapped as a 24 year old, both her chauffeur and body guard were shot and she was rescued by some passer-by amateur boxer. When told to get out of the car by her would be kidnapper, she said "not bloody likely". The Queen had her bedroom broken in to and she managed a conversation with her intruder before signalling for help. A few years ago I heard Prince George was being carefully watched due to an increase in credible threats to him.

I believe Harry has said he feels somewhat different from his family and that is seeming to be more and more true. He does not seem suited to the life he has had which is why I think they should rework the whole thing as best they can and take their joy with their children.

 

[sk8pics]

Apparently, the therapy he received is not without controversy. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...l-trauma-therapy-called-emdr-it-worked-for-me

EMDR has been around now close to 30 years, I believe, and there is some evidence it can be an effective treatment for PTSD. But it is not magic and still a lot of hard work needs to go into the therapy, not just EMDR but all the therapy the traumatized person is receiving. I was in the very first graduate level workshop in EMDR back in 1995. My professor was one of those trained by Francine Shapiro; he was an expert in cognitive behavioral therapy and ran a PTSD unit for war vets and had been traumatized himself in the Vietnam War. I never used it with any clients because it was really still not in my wheelhouse in spite of the training. But we did have to try it out on each other in the workshop. I chose an experience I had with mice invading my house that was basically a flooding event that I escaped from, and so it reinforced my fear and it became a phobia. I have to say the EMDR I received at that time did help me, but of course this was a very minor issue in the grand scheme of things.

Now whether it’s helping Harry or not, I can’t say.

 

[overedge]

@puglover I wasn't suggesting that Harry has no reason to worry about safety. Of course he does, as a member of the BRF. What I was questioning was whether he is actually in as much risk as he seems to think he is.

 

[puglover]

@puglover I wasn't suggesting that Harry has no reason to worry about safety. Of course he does, as a member of the BRF. What I was questioning was whether he is actually in as much risk as he seems to think he is.

I agree. What strikes me about Harry's reactions is that he seemed less able to cope with even the level of celebrity he had before and now it has increased many times. If Meghan, and it sounds likes she wants to, chooses to speak out and involve herself (and by association Harry) in public discourse on current issues, the press, including that tabloid press, will want those pictures. The examples I gave of Princess Anne, the Queen, etc., for me anyway, display such a stiff upper lip, carry on attitude common in that family, that I wonder if Harry has much of at all. Harry compares himself to Diana and she certainly was injured by that whole mess but I actually thought she was quite a tough cookie and gave the men in suits trouble. Harry threw a lot away to be happy and I hope he finds it and can focus on it. For all I know, he is ecstatic - but he sure doesn't look it.

 

[Jenny]

I believe Harry has said he feels somewhat different from his family and that is seeming to be more and more true. He does not seem suited to the life he has had which is why I think they should rework the whole thing as best they can and take their joy with their children.

Agree, but I'm still scratching my head at the decision to have their children be Prince and Princess. It's their right of course, but if Harry hated/still hates the whole thing, and it's certainly not without precedent, why put that kind of baggage on little kids? If they want the kids to have a "normal" childhood, sending them off to school with titles immediately sets them apart, even more so than being a celebrity's kid. Even if they never use them, it's out there in the world and there will be people - strangers and those who actually know them - who treat them differently because of it.

Is Meghan actively using her title, or is just the media? Harry's book cover says written by Prince Harry, so is he continuing to use his titles outside of formal, BRF-related occasions?

Honestly I don't get it.

 

[once_upon]

I think that most/none of us can get it. We didn't grow up with titles. Royal titles are really weird designations and only a few people out of several billion people in the world could understand the significance to the titled

 

[millyskate]

@once_upon there is one point you mention I agree that with. Harry is extraordinarily unlucky to look so incredibly like the man his mother had an affair with. Forget about the red hair, he looks at so many stages of his life like a carbon copy of James Hewitt.

I know that looking very carefully, in some pictures one can also find a level of resemblance with his grandfather. But nothing so compelling.

I expect the doubt did at some stage exist for real either in his head or in thar of the rest of the BRF and that would have had subconscious consequences.

 

[MLIS]

I can understand, theoretically, why Harry and Meghan would choose to keep their children’s options open, so to speak, in terms of titles. Easier to stop using them later than start. Also, having kicked up such a fuss about Archie’s title during the Oprah interview and such, now that he’s entitled to it maybe they felt backed into a corner and could hardly say “you know what, never mind.” But if these children are growing up American, in California, with no intention of ever attending royal events, let alone be working royals, it’s hard to see what use they would have for titles. But I can see how they would want it to be THEIR choice, not the royal family’s or the “grey men in suits.”