ISU Statement on Russia's war against Ukraine - Participation in international competitions of Skaters and Officials from Russia and Belarus

[Lanja]

Article in Norwegian about the IOC's latest statement: https://www.nrk.no/sport/anklager-i...det-kan-avgjore-bolsjunovs-skjebne-1.16357062

Several law professors & Russia experts give their opinions. They all agree that the IOC is too vague and leaves lots of (probably intentional) loopholes when it comes to interpretation of "under military contract" and "active support of the war" -- one of them suspects that the "contract" part will be interpreted such that athletes with honourary military ranks are considered eligible.

As usual Thomas Bach is talking out of both sides of his mouth and at the same time offering nothing beyond evasive platitudes. The case of the skiier Alexander Bolshunov is the one that most people here are interested in as he is one of few who can truly challenge Norwegian skiiers and he is also an officer in the national guard; on the face of it, it seems like he should be excluded for supporting the war. But, confronted by the journalist about Bolshunov's status, Bach only says that "it's really very complex" and an "independent panel of experts" will evaluate each athlete's eligibility.

On a positive note, the Norwegian representative to the IBU (worldwide biathlon council) says he does not foresee that biathlon will include Russian athletes in the future.

 

[coppertop1]

Breaking News: Whataboutism is not a valid defense.

 

[Debbie S]

HMMMM. But the 1936 Olympics were held in Munich GERMANY. The 24 Os won't be in RUSSIA (deo gratsias).

Berlin.

 

[Asli]

I sincerely hope the world is a slightly better place in the summer of 2024 and we can really celebrate the Olympics.

 

[Asli]

Imagine if the current mass social mobilization in France brings down the president and the far-right wins the elections before the Olympics! The absolute horror!

Sorry for the off-topic! Carry on while I try to melt my blood that has frozen at the idea!

 

[Ananas Astra]

Imagine if the current mass social mobilization in France brings down the president and the far-right wins the elections before the Olympics! The absolute horror!

Sorry for the off-topic! Carry on while I try to melt my blood that has frozen at the idea!

As long as the Frenchies won't take out the guillotine again...this is going to be .

 

[MacMadame]

HMMMM. But the 1936 Olympics were held in Munich Berlin GERMANY. The 24 Os won't be in RUSSIA (deo gratsias).

And at that time, Germany had not invaded anyone. (Not that I think they should have been held there, but that's another issue.)

Bach only says that "it's really very complex" and an "independent panel of experts" will evaluate each athlete's eligibility.

An independent panel of experts, huh? We know how well that worked for the 2018 Olympics.

Btw, not only is whataboutism not a defense, but so is saying that we didn't do the right thing in the past so we can't do the right thing ever now and in the future.

 

[Dobre]

Cross-posting this thought from another thread as it applies to the recent conversation here:

I don't think Bach realizes that most of the world would be fine if Russia "boycotts" and tries to drag other countries along.

I doubt NBC realizes it either. They are used to covering the Olympics as a post-Cold War battle and are probably afraid that if the Russians don't show up, then the interest in watching & viewership will go down. I know there are some people here who feel the reverse and are certain they will not be watching the Olympics if the Russians compete. Time might not be wasted waging a campaign to let the station know now.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

I was re-watching some of Worlds and marvel at how European figure skating is waking up with the Russians out of the picture. They were so dominant - first with unlimited resources to hunt out and develop athletes; second, turning women`s skating into a child freak show; and of course endless cheating. I think without admitting it Europeans skaters were feeling "why bother?"

But, Europeans are back in the picture - Two great French male skaters, women like Loena on the podium, Italy with pairs medalists and very good dance teams. It feels like a skating community again. I say "good riddance to bad rubbish"

 

[coppertop1]

I was re-watching some of Worlds and marvel at how European figure skating is waking up with the Russians out of the picture. They were so dominant - first with unlimited resources to hunt out and develop athletes; second, turning women`s skating into a child freak show; and of course endless cheating. I think without admitting it Europeans skaters were feeling "why bother?"

But, Europeans are back in the picture - Two great French male skaters, women like Loena on the podium, Italy with pairs medalists and very good dance teams. It feels like a skating community again. I say "good riddance to bad rubbish"

I think with the Russians have been so dominant for so long that it was acceptable that they were the best. However, they haven't been dominated since the IJS. They've been solid in pairs, but hit-and-miss in Ice Dance and haven't won the OGM since 2006. Their men have been weaker, and the monopoly on thie Women's Event was sketchy at best. Now that there not there, it's definitely more interesting and it's refreshing. Women's skating feels like it's how it should be, with mature performances and good skating winning. I don't want to eat a 15-year-old reel off quads and be replaced in four years by another younger skater. That's just not very interesting.

 

[tony]

I think with the Russians have been so dominant for so long that it was acceptable that they were the best. However, they haven't been dominated since the IJS. They've been solid in pairs, but hit-and-miss in Ice Dance and haven't won the OGM since 2006. Their men have been weaker, and the monopoly on thie Women's Event was sketchy at best. Now that there not there, it's definitely more interesting and it's refreshing. Women's skating feels like it's how it should be, with mature performances and good skating winning. I don't want to eat a 15-year-old reel off quads and be replaced in four years by another younger skater. That's just not very interesting.

I don't disagree with the some of your points, but you had Lipinski, Kwan, Hughes, and Cohen in the US basically dominating, along with Russia, for a good part of 1996-2003 or so. And each year, especially in the US, there seemed to be a new name that could be a future champion-- all below the age of 18. And then when Cohen dropped out of the picture, it was Meissner and a bunch of US women that weren't even old enough for Worlds (minus Wagner who was just barely old enough) taking up the top spots, which made all of the next generation of US skaters also very young and often shifting in and out of contention.

How is Russia's last 6 or 7 years any different in concept, with or without quads? Russia had some really dark years directly following Slutskaya's retirement, including Ksenia Doronina not even making the free skate at Europeans after she won Nationals.

 

[coppertop1]

I don't disagree with the some of your points, but you had Lipinski, Kwan, Hughes, and Cohen in the US basically dominating, along with Russia, for a good part of 1996-2003 or so. And each year, especially in the US, there seemed to be a new name that could be a future champion-- all below the age of 18.

How is Russia's last 6 or 7 years any different in concept, with or without quads?

Sasha and Michelle had full careers. Yes, Sarah and Tara retired early but not because they were replaced. Michelle retired at 25 after almost 15 years. Sasha competed at two Olympics. It's very different. Plus, it wasn't a monopoly. There were winners from other countries.

Oh and none of them failed a doping test

 

[tony]

Sasha and Michelle had full careers. Yes, Sarah and Tara retired early but not because they were replaced. Michelle retired at 25 after almost 15 years. Sasha competed at two Olympics. It's very different.

Oh and none of them failed a doping test

Sasha and Michelle had longevity because there was no one else pushing them out of their spots, unless you want to argue with a serious face that the likes of Jenny Kirk, who finished like 17th in two (completed) Worlds appearances, was coming on as a serious threat. Or perhaps Emily Hughes, who would have been the alternate in 2006 if Michelle was able to compete?

A little bit of logic goes a long way. The depth of the Russian field is something the US has never come close to attaining. It's the same reason we see skaters from small countries able to skate in Worlds for 10+ years. If Michelle had 6 or 7 women behind her also doing 6 or 7 triple programs consistently, it could be a much different story, especially in the last few years of her career when tight jumps and mistakes were really creeping in.

If Kwan and Cohen are your basis for all of this while not looking at the careers of many other successful junior-turned-senior with not much to show for it, you have Tuktamysheva who has outlasted both Kwan and Cohen at this point.

 

[thvu]

@SkateFanBerlin I was saying the same thing to mr thvu. Worlds felt like there was so much hope and possibility, a sense that hasn’t been around for quite awhile. When was the last time we witnessed so much joy at a figure skating competition? (Never?)

 

[coppertop1]

Sasha and Michelle had longevity because there was no one else pushing them out of their spots, unless you want to argue with a serious face that the likes of Jenny Kirk, who finished like 17th in two (completed) Worlds appearances, was coming on as a serious threat. Or perhaps Emily Hughes, who would have been the alternate in 2006 if Michelle was able to compete?

A little bit of logic goes a long way. The depth of the Russian field is something the US has never come close to attaining. It's the same reason we see skaters from small countries able to skate in Worlds for 10+ years. If Michelle had 6 or 7 women behind her also doing 6 or 7 triple programs consistently, it would be a different story.

If Kwan and Cohen are your basis for all of this while not looking at the careers of many other successful junior-turned-senior with not much to show stories, you have Tuktamysheva who has outlasted both Kwan and Cohen at this point.

Please spare me your mansplaining.

 

[tony]

Please spare me your mansplaining.

Yet another person on FSU who uses this word whenever a counterargument is brought up. Shocking.

If you want to give an opinion on a figure skating board and constantly try to drill it in and the be-all end-all, then don't be surprised when anyone, whether it's myself or maryhadalittlelamb, has something to say in return rather than using the term incorrectly.

 

[TAHbKA]

Trusting FSU to turn any topic to a Sasha/Michelle. Now we need to integrate Yagudin/Plushenko into it. Who can oblige?

 

[thvu]

Please spare me your mansplaining.

I often explain ice dance rules, and sometimes correct people. Should I stop doing that? When I replied to @tony and told him I didn’t think Ilia’s 4Axel was <, and was no more than 1/8 under, was I mansplaining him?

I don’t know where the line is. @tony disagrees with me all the time in the same manner. Is he mansplaining me?

 

[coppertop1]

Yet another person on FSU who uses this word whenever a counterargument is brought up. Shocking.

I often explain ice dance rules, and sometimes correct people. Should I stop doing that? When I replied to @tony and told him I didn’t think Ilia’s 4Axel was <, and was no more than 1/8 under, was I mansplaining him?

I don’t know where the line is. @tony disagrees with me all the time in the same manner. Is he mansplaining me?

"A little logic goes a long way" came across as being a bit condescending.

 

[tony]

"A little logic goes a long way" came across as being a bit condescending.

I can't bother to constantly be accused of this or that by people who state their opinions as the end-all of everything and immediately shut down anyone else's opinion, especially with certain posters' favorite term. I really should just become maryhadalittlelamb or some other judgejudy-esque name and see what happens. You didn't factor a lot of things into your statements, which are plentiful in these Russia threads, and I don't agree with what you're saying. The little bit of logic is that the US still went through many, many years of young skaters coming and going (sans Kwan and Cohen) and there wasn't much competition behind them so their spots at the top were not threatened. That's not an opinion as far as I know.

 

[Rukia]

I don’t know where the line is. @tony disagrees with me all the time in the same manner. Is he mansplaining me?

If a mansplainer mansplains to a mansplainer, does the mansplainer really mansplain mansplainers?

 

[airgelaal]

In most countries, professional sports are expensive. Athletes have to look for sponsors and part-time jobs themselves. I believe that such athletes deserve respect, regardless of their results. While russian athletes and fans consider everyone who is not in the top to be losers. Why compete if you can't win? This is the philosophy of russian sports. That infamous Medvedeva`s illigal combo is a spit in the direction of women's skating outside of russia. It was stupid, but first of all it's not fair play. That's not how real athletes behave. It's not about dominance, but about the general atmosphere. When athletes give so much energy to the sport, the last thing they want is to be treated as insignificant extras.

 

[Trillian]

Sasha and Michelle had longevity because there was no one else pushing them out of their spots,

And because they both managed to avoid career-ending injuries well into their 20s. Those two points are exactly the difference between the U.S. then and Russia over the last decade. Yes, the U.S. had a lot of young talent during that time period and not a great track record for managing injuries. But the young talent didn’t come up and make the older skaters irrelevant every year or two. And there were plenty of older skaters who managed to stay relevant. Not just Kwan and Cohen, who were clearly generational talents. We also had skaters like Nikodinov, Corwin, Gardiner, etc. who stayed competitive with the likes of Kirk, Liang, Hughes II, etc. A bunch retired early, as is typical. But someone like Amber Corwin who wanted to stay in the mix was able to do so.

Plus, in terms of international dominance, the U.S. then was not winning the way Russia did in recent years. It’s not comparable.

You can argue that Russia just did a better job of training these girls. But it’s possible there may be … other factors.

 

[tony]

And because they both managed to avoid career-ending injuries well into their 20s. Those two points are exactly the difference between the U.S. then and Russia over the last decade. Yes, the U.S. had a lot of young talent during that time period and not a great track record for managing injuries. But the young talent didn’t come up and make the older skaters irrelevant every year or two. And there were plenty of older skaters who managed to stay relevant. Not just Kwan and Cohen, who were clearly generational talents. We also had skaters like Nikodinov, Corwin, Gardiner, etc. who stayed competitive with the likes of Kirk, Liang, Hughes II, etc. A bunch retired early, as is typical. But someone like Amber Corwin who wanted to stay in the mix was able to do so.

Plus, in terms of international dominance, the U.S. then was not winning the way Russia did in recent years. It’s not comparable.

You can argue that Russia just did a better job of training these girls. But it’s possible there may be … other factors.

I think the stagnation of technical elements from the early 90s, where many women suddenly had all five triples besides the Axel, and 2016 or 2017 also plays a part. Triple-triple combinations weren’t even commonplace until the last decade. Now you basically need it to get into the free skate at Worlds, let alone get a ticket there. But Cohen and Kwan also had multiple injuries throughout their careers, and one that actually did put an end to Kwan’s amateur career— an entire Olympic cycle before Butyrskaya called it quits. So you just never know how bodies will hold up with constant wear and tear.

We are seeing more injuries and more shifting of who is at the top all the time, and I think it will get even more unpredictable in Japan with all of the younger women coming up with big jumps. Even in the men’s field- maybe Kagiyama has injury setbacks that will never get him back to top level. Uno had an injury at Worlds that put his participation into question, etc.

I think too many of these skaters, especially in Russia, see $$$ in other ventures even if they aren’t medal winners. Because for some, competing with an aging body, missing out on opportunities and school, and finishing in the teens at Nationals isn’t fun anymore, even if it’s not a super severe injury. And I’m not discrediting the injuries that come out of Eteri’s camp, but as I showed in one of the last threads, her camp is far from the only retire early deal, and the OP was tired of teens coming along every 4 years. We’ve basically had that for a long while aside from the Kwan-Butyrskaya-Slutskaya trio and then Kostner/Suzuki having their great seasons, and especially in the dark ages of the US scene. I think Kwan was a huge outlier in longevity that everyone still hopes to see, but it just doesn’t always happen that way. Even Nathan Chen only really lasted 5 years, even if he won everything.

 

[MacMadame]

The depth of the Russian field is something the US has never come close to attaining.

Ever? I swear in the dark ages that the US was pretty dominant in both Mens and Womens skating. And there was a time when North America dominated dance.

I know there are people on here who remember every winner in every Worlds since the beginning of time so I'd be interested in them chiming in as to whether or not the US ever came close to Russia's dominance since the ISU existed. I'm pretty sure there were times when Russia wasn't very dominant because we're talking about hundreds of years here. And the USSR didn't participate in the Olympics until the 50s.

Please spare me your mansplaining.

I don't really think that's what mansplaining is. If you look at the way it was used when the phrase first became popular, it was some dude on the internet telling the author of a paper that she didn't understand the paper. So the woman in question was an expert and the man was explaining the concept she was an expert on as if she didn't know anything about the subject and not only that but he got the explanation was wrong.

So if a man on FSU was explaining the judging rules to a female judge as if she had no idea what the rules were and got some of the rules wrong, that would be mansplaining. Nothing about this discussion has anything to do with expertise. It's just opinions about past history.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I cannot believe I'm doing this, because I really don't like watching most of the female skaters coming out of Tutberidze's camp -- I can't say all teenagers, because, Mao Freaking Shimada, for example -- but I am thinking about something Tinami Amori said about how they get their moment in the sun when they are young, and then they can go to university with their peers and be productive in their adult lives outside of skating.

 

[tony]

Ever? I swear in the dark ages that the US was pretty dominant in both Mens and Womens skating. And there was a time when North America dominated dance.

I know there are people on here who remember every winner in every Worlds since the beginning of time so I'd be interested in them chiming in as to whether or not the US ever came close to Russia's dominance since the ISU existed. I'm pretty sure there were times when Russia wasn't very dominant because we're talking about hundreds of years here. And the USSR didn't participate in the Olympics until the 50s.

If we are talking about modern-day skating, which I guess you could start with 1973 and the introduction of the short program, the US had all three medalists at 1991 Worlds-- a very clear top three domestically at that point. But beyond them, there wasn't a tremendous depth of serious contenders. You could even start the 'modern era' with 1991 and the compulsories going away, I suppose. Take Russian Nationals for the last Olympic cycle or a little bit before that, you have skaters landing 6 triples fighting to get into the top 10. Even when Kwan was dominating, you had Kwiatkowski, Nikodinov (pre-transformation), and Kirk making World teams, and the latter two outside the top 10 at least once. Even in 1993 and 1994, right after that strong trio, Kwiatkowski didn't get out of qualifying in 1993 and Bobek couldn't do it in 1994.

As I mentioned, Russia had a massive dark age for a few seasons following Slutskaya's retirement. Sokolova and Volchkova were shadows of their previous selves, and the National Champion (Doronina) couldn't even get out of the Europeans short program. I'm sure people here also remember Nina Petushkova, as well.. But now, there are women who would likely finish in the top 7 or 8 or so at US Nationals who can't even qualify to their own Nationals. So, even if the US was stacked in skaters who were super proficient at compulsories, I don't think there's ever been a comparable level to what we have now. The USSR was never a serious powerhouse in women's skating until the mid-90's-- as they only had occasional moments of greatness coming from Vodorezova, Ivanova, and Kondrashova.

 

[airgelaal]

Ukraine announce will boycott Paris 2024 qualifying events where Russians are participating​

Ukraine will boycott Paris 2024 qualifying events where Russians participated

Ukraine's Government has officially announced that athletes from the country will not participate in any qualifying events for next year's Olympic Gam...

www.insidethegames.biz

 

[Trillian]

But now, there are women who would likely finish in the top 7 or 8 or so at US Nationals who can't even qualify to their own Nationals. So, even if the US was stacked in skaters who were super proficient at compulsories, I don't think there's ever been a comparable level to what we have now.

I can think of a few cases when countries had exceptional depth at the national level, in the sense that even skaters who finished relatively low at the national level are competitive with the top skaters from most other countries in the world. There’s definitely a case to be made that the U.S. is there right now in ice dancing. But there are usually complicated reasons that happens and usually the really extreme period of depth doesn’t last that long.

But I can’t think of another case where the “depth” consists of a huge number of skaters being able to perform high level technical tricks that very few other skaters anywhere in the world can seem to master with the same degree of consistency, even after years of trying. Even without the ages involved, the abuse, the injury rates, that would still be red flaggy AF.

 

[Firedancer]

Ukraine announce will boycott Paris 2024 qualifying events where Russians are participating​

Ukraine will boycott Paris 2024 qualifying events where Russians participated

Ukraine's Government has officially announced that athletes from the country will not participate in any qualifying events for next year's Olympic Gam...

www.insidethegames.biz

So sad and wrong that Ukrainians are the ones who will miss out on the Olympics because the IOC can never stand up to Russia