Skate Canada Changes Definition of Pairs/Ice Dance "Team" for Domestic Events to "Two Skaters"

VGThuy said:
First, I’d say culture and lack of institutional outreach to encourage those types of formations has been stopping them. There’s probably still a fear that these kinds of teams won’t do well. And right now we’re still in the traditional mindset that female skaters have to look one way and male skaters have to look another in ice dance. Look at all the comments this season and last about the short statures of Marco Fabbri, Jean-Luc Baker, and Michael Parsons.

Second, even if the rules say “lifting partner” and “lifted partner”, the rest of the handbook clearly say “woman” and “man”. The element abbreviations even say that. Plus, wasn’t it only last season where they changed the rule that forced women ice dancers to wear a skirt? Not dating men couldn’t wear dresses/skirts, but given the totality of everything, it’s still very much in the man/woman mold where the man leads the dance. Plus, I think ice dance handbook doesn’t use gender in the specific context of lifts thanks to the likes of Marina Anissina and Sinead Kerr where the woman lifted the man at times. I don’t the ISU would really allow a same-sex or perceived same-sex couple to compete in their sanctioned competitions.
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Who is making these comments? Judges? ISU officials?
 
VGThuy said:
First, I’d say culture and lack of institutional outreach to encourage those types of formations has been stopping them. There’s probably still a fear that these kinds of teams won’t do well. And right now we’re still in the traditional mindset that female skaters have to look one way and male skaters have to look another in ice dance. Look at all the comments this season and last about the short statures of Marco Fabbri, Jean-Luc Baker, and Michael Parsons.

Second, even if the rules say “lifting partner” and “lifted partner”, the rest of the handbook clearly say “woman” and “man”. The element abbreviations even say that. Plus, wasn’t it only last season where they changed the rule that forced women ice dancers to wear a skirt? Not dating men couldn’t wear dresses/skirts, but given the totality of everything, it’s still very much in the man/woman mold where the man leads the dance. Plus, I think ice dance handbook doesn’t use gender in the specific context of lifts thanks to the likes of Marina Anissina and Sinead Kerr where the woman lifted the man at times. I don’t the ISU would really allow a same-sex or perceived same-sex couple to compete in their sanctioned competitions.
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Interesting the discussion about costumes came up at the recent ISU Dance Seminar I attended. The discussion was around the word "trousers". Women are allowed to wear pants of any kind, including shorts. They just have to be "modest" and not show too much skin.
 
I think make/male pairs at the super elite level could actually be something almost worthy of the X Games.

A small man can be very strong and light. Partnered with a larger man, I think lifts and throws could be extremely acrobatic and enormous. Coupled with the sometimes brute intensity that accompanies male team sports it could be quite intense. Likely a world away from the man being the stem for his beautiful flower mould.

If Im correct, didn’t Johnny Weir manage a throw triple axel after one session of trying pairs with Rudy Galindo? That’s a move that Savchenko and Massot worked endlessly on to achieve. EDIT - Here’s the video - https://youtu.be/AzM4LM8NsbY

Honestly it didn’t even look like it was a lot of effort for them.

But anyway, I expect this will have more impact in that it will allow the big excess of girls a chance to compete ice dance and pairs together at a more grassroots level.
 
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Okay I said I would find something from the roller sports event and found this program. It is very high level skating and is kind of like a combination of Synchro and Theatre on Ice. However I just picked this randomly to watch and it is all kind of batsh*t crazy and voidy that I think FSUers would appreciate. And it does literally have fireworks. :love: :biggrinbo :lol:

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I know there will be some teams that want to do romantic programs but I also see this as an opportunity to change the mindset that any "couple" program must have romantic overtones and we will see more variety in the types of choreography and programs that the teams create. I get very tired of a man/woman team must be romantic. Ice dance, I'm looking at you as I type this.
 
USFS will be changing the partnered tests to "lead" and "follow" partner next year. Skate Canada is already going further!

I have never seen any technical reason that ice dance can't be gender neutral.

Pair skating at the lower skill levels that don't allow overhead lifts and twists can be, but by middle levels female/female teams would be at a significant disadvantage against mixed or male teams. A separate event for female/female teams, with different lift rules, would probably be welcome for purposes of creating more opportunities for girls and women to form teams.

Changing the wording of how a team is composed also allows for individuals who identify as non-binary or trans to compete with any appropriate partner without having to misgender themselves to fit into the rules. That's where we might see this change become relevant at high-level or even elite pair competition.
 
I don't see any reason why high point lifts have to stay the same in pairs competition. They are getting to the point of being too complicated and are becoming less of an enjoyment factor for me. My biggest problem with this judging system is the need to put everything in levels and overly complicating things to the point where they are too busy for me. I do like those lifts but not every single one of them in a program. People complained about boring spins before this judging system but I actually think we had more diversity in them than we do now. They are just clutter now.
 
gkelly said:
USFS will be changing the partnered tests to "lead" and "follow" partner next year. Skate Canada is already going further!

I have never seen any technical reason that ice dance can't be gender neutral.

Pair skating at the lower skill levels that don't allow overhead lifts and twists can be, but by middle levels female/female teams would be at a significant disadvantage against mixed or male teams. A separate event for female/female teams, with different lift rules, would probably be welcome for purposes of creating more opportunities for girls and women to form teams.

Changing the wording of how a team is composed also allows for individuals who identify as non-binary or trans to compete with any appropriate partner without having to misgender themselves to fit into the rules. That's where we might see this change become relevant at high-level or even elite pair competition.
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Would they be? I'm not so sure. I feel like scoring can be adjusted in ways to make things more competitive.
 
gkelly said:
Pair skating at the lower skill levels that don't allow overhead lifts and twists can be, but by middle levels female/female teams would be at a significant disadvantage against mixed or male teams. A separate event for female/female teams, with different lift rules, would probably be welcome for purposes of creating more opportunities for girls and women to form teams.
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Alternatively, you could create competitive categories based on the degree of element difficulty teams have attained, not on the gender of their members.
 
This could inspire a Trash Can thread where posters are encouraged to present their totally re-imagined categories and scoring system, code of points (and recognized elements), and "rounds" of competition.
 
I just had a look at the Gay Games. They are not including figure skating next year but when they have they have always been open to having same gender couples competing. Found this video of Birgit Aust and Bettina Keil. It is a really good program.

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And another one with two men - Phillip Carouge and Frank Graber. Again good skaters but not so great performance.

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At the end of the day good skating is good skating.

In Australia we have artistic events that are open to duos, trios and groups which can comprise of any combination of males or females. I used to compete in Artistic with another woman and we did numbers like the Blues Brothers and Sony and Cher. It wasn't high level skating but it was fun.
 
Yes, there are opportunities for same-sex duos, and larger groups, to compete in showcase-type programs in the US as well.

There are many ways in which teams of different compositions can create captivating duets with a variety of themes and styles, featuring the skills that have.

What many, especially otherwise well-matched female-female teams, will not be able to do is overhead lifts.

I'm not talking about complex level 4 lifts. Even simple group 1 and group 2 semi-overheads would be rare for F/F teams to be able to achieve. The simple group 3, 4, and 5 lifts seen in the 1960s would be even harder to achieve.

Currently, such lifts are required elements in pair skating beginning at Novice level in Canada. (Pre-Novice can stick to groups 1 and 2.)

Skate Canada Competition Program Requirements:

Competition Program Requirements - Podium Pathway

info.skatecanada.ca info.skatecanada.ca

Also, while single twists might be possible, I don't see double twists as an option.

So where would a team of two women or older girls who are otherwise strong junior or senior level skaters fit in?

Ditto for male/male or even mixed pairs who don't an appropriate significant size difference?


Dance lifts would not be an issue, although the higher levels by IJS standard might be harder to achieve.
 
I bet Stephanie Roth (5'8" body builder, US adult champion and senior national competitor) could do overhead lifts with a female partner. I think she could be / could've been competitive in pairs at a novice level, maybe even junior.

I'm trying to think of other female skaters who might be competitive as a "lifting" pairs skater and am coming up empty. But maybe they exit the sport early because their body types are not typical for skating.
 
Louis said:
I'm trying to think of other female skaters who might be competitive as a "lifting" pairs skater and am coming up empty. But maybe they exit the sport early because their body types are not typical for skating.
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I think this is more likely. If we give them an avenue to stay in I think we could see successful female pair teams.
 
Individual women, cis and trans alike, can work to build upper body strength just as men can. And lift heavy weights above our heads. Or did I hallucinate the existence of all those female weightlifters at the Commonwealth Games? Female circus artistes, female bowlers, female cheerleaders, female construction workers, female soldiers, all cheerfully lifting and balancing and sometimes even throwing heavy weights about regularly because they've chosen to learn how to do it, the same as their male counterparts have chosen to learn how.

Twists and lifts and throw jumps are skills, not facts of biology. Male skaters have to learn how to do them and develop their upper body strength to do them safely too. How about we wait and see what indivduals can accomplish when they have opportunity and motivation, rather than making blanket statements about their capacity based on broad generalisations and assumptions about groups before any of them even get started?
 
Aussie Willy said:
Interesting the discussion about costumes came up at the recent ISU Dance Seminar I attended. The discussion was around the word "trousers". Women are allowed to wear pants of any kind, including shorts. They just have to be "modest" and not show too much skin.
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The wording of “modest” and “not show too much skin” is quite something from a sport with so many televised crotch shots and wedgies showing almost all the woman’s butt in every competition. Sigh…
 
Desperado said:
The wording of “modest” and “not show too much skin” is quite something from a sport with so many televised crotch shots and wedgies showing almost all the woman’s butt in every competition. Sigh…
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As long as you can't see a VPL :)
 
Orm Irian said:
Twists and lifts and throw jumps are skills, not facts of biology. Male skaters have to learn how to do them and develop their upper body strength to do them safely too. How about we wait and see what indivduals can accomplish when they have opportunity and motivation, rather than making blanket statements about their capacity based on broad generalisations and assumptions about groups before any of them even get started?
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Which is kind of what exists already, with pairs teams having to pass tests with increasingly difficult content to compete at different/higher levels.

Another way to make this more equitable would be to add limits as well as minimums. E.g. if a pair can do a single twist and a double twist, but the competitive test only requires a single twist, then they wouldn't be allowed to do a double twist in competition. ISI does this in some of its freeskate categories, where the skaters can do one or a few moves from the next highest test level, but no more than that.
 
Orm Irian said:
Individual women, cis and trans alike, can work to build upper body strength just as men can. And lift heavy weights above our heads. Or did I hallucinate the existence of all those female weightlifters at the Commonwealth Games?
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Definitely, but I think the women who can do this are different from the ones who have been typically successful in the sport to date (which is a great thing). Let's be real, the likes of Lipinski or Zagitova would never be a lifting pairs partner no matter how much they worked to build upper body strength :lol:.

There aren't many places for female skaters above 5'6" (and really 5'4" for outside of dance). Lifting pairs partners would probably want to be a minimum of 5'7" and ideally a bit taller. They'd want physical characteristics, like broad shoulders, that are usually detriments.

Other than the one US national competitor I mentioned, I can't think of any elite woman who could be or could've been a lifting pairs partner. Maybe this will open up new opportunities for taller, fuller women to continue longer in the sport.
 
overedge said:
Which is kind of what exists already, with pairs teams having to pass tests with increasingly difficult content to compete at different/higher levels.

Another way to make this more equitable would be to add limits as well as minimums. E.g. if a pair can do a single twist and a double twist, but the competitive test only requires a single twist, then they wouldn't be allowed to do a double twist in competition. ISI does this in some of its freeskate categories, where the skaters can do one or a few moves from the next highest test level, but no more than that.
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To pass the senior free skate test in the US, only double jumps are required. You do NOT have to do a triple jump to pass the senior test. To pass the senior pair test in the US, only double twists and jumps are required. Are you saying that Olympic level competition should be limited to just double jumps?
 
Shirene Human was relatively broad-shouldered and generally muscular. But her Wikipedia article says that she was 5'5.5", which might be too short. But given that elite skating is self-selecting for different characteristics than throwing partner, it would have to provide that opportunity before women would see it as an opportunity and figure skating as a place for them.

On Battle of the Blades, 5'7" Tessa Bonhomme was a contestant, paired with David Pelletier, who is under 6' tall. Jennifer Botterill was the tallest of the women hockey players on the show at 5'9", and the taller of Eric Radford's two partners; Amanda Kessell was the other. Hockey players have to be pretty strong, and some might want to give it a try.

I've also seen some taller and more muscular figure skaters on synchro teams.
 
Austrian Nationals just had a unified pairs event - I'd be curious to know what elements comprised the programs (required or otherwise).
 
Orm Irian said:
Twists and lifts and throw jumps are skills, not facts of biology. Male skaters have to learn how to do them and develop their upper body strength to do them safely too. How about we wait and see what indivduals can accomplish when they have opportunity and motivation, rather than making blanket statements about their capacity based on broad generalisations and assumptions about groups before any of them even get started?
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What I know as a VM fan is that a lot of lifting relies on proper technique from both partners, not brute force or strength of the lifting partner.
 
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