The Dance Hall 10: The Saitama Samba 2022-2023

[manhn]

No other discipline had a third component. I don’t think the skating feds wanted to spend the time and costs to run it.

 

[Bigbird]

Hmm. Miss it though. The dances have not gotten more dancey with the exception of say P/C. Instead you have smart coaches like Zhulin mastering the technical requirements to secure a win. So the dances look flat with the exception of the RD where they at least have to experiment with different styles.

 

[manhn]

I also think people tend to look at the past with rose coloured glasses, picking only the things they liked. Just rewatch the OSP competition during the 1988 Olympics and Worlds for this so-called variety.

 

[Bigbird]

I also think people tend to look at the past with rose coloured glasses, picking only the things they liked. Just rewatch the OSP competition during the 1988 Olympics and Worlds for this so-called variety.

There is that too. Plus with the slump after the OGs the pickings are slim with not much to be excited sbout in the second tier of dancers.

 

[VGThuy]

I also think people tend to look at the past with rose coloured glasses, picking only the things they liked. Just rewatch the OSP competition during the 1988 Olympics and Worlds for this so-called variety.

With pleasure.

 

[clairecloutier]

I think I've probably said this before ... But these past 2 years, I was actually just as much as, or in some cases more, interested in the second-tier teams as I was in the first tier (whom I sometimes found to be in a rut creatively). So I'm actually really enjoying this season because some of my favorites are getting closer to the top. And I am enjoying most of the programs. P.S. Plus I am finding new favorites among the up-and-coming teams, such as Demougeot/LeMercier.

 

[Dobre]

I'm sad that Lopareva & Brissaud have lost their quirkiness.

 

[thvu]

My question is though is this a sport or a beauty contest? With all other disciplines technical content increases but for dance we do the opposite? I started watching ice dance in the 90s I think. Nothing gives you the goosebumps like an impeccably performed Golden Waltz. The watered down stuff leaves me wanting. Maybe they don't have competent enough judges to evaluate?

Bourne & Kraatz won a world medal with a free dance that had tons of posing, open holds, and where the most difficult step/turn was a single twizzle. While some program pre IJS were more difficult than today’s free dances, I would say that, by and large, that’s not the case.

 

[Bigbird]

I'm sad that Lopareva & Brissaud have lost their quirkiness.

They need to train with RH consistently. They have the talent they just don't have visionaries around them.

 

[VGThuy]

Bourne & Kraatz won a world medal with a free dance that had tons of posing, open holds, and where the most difficult step/turn was a single twizzle. While some program pre IJS were more difficult than today’s free dances, I would say that, by and large, that’s not the case.

Ouch but accurate. Maybe that’s where we’re heading back to if the tech committee keeps going in this direction after every Olympics.

 

[kwanfan1818]

No other discipline had a third component. I don’t think the skating feds wanted to spend the time and costs to run it.

Except that now they've added qualification rounds to Worlds starting in the 2024-25 season, unless they rescind that at the 2024 Congress or pull whatever manuever the Council does when it wants something. (Rule 378 in the Special Regs.)

ETA: If they wanted to, they could reinstate the CD(s) instead of the quali round and drop the RD altogether.

I'd prefer that they take the RD and make it two circuits of the prescribed CD and one original pattern to the same track, and if they wanted tricks, they could let skaters pick two non-step elements -- leveled or choreographic -- and put one at the beginning and one at the end, but the CD_OSP would be done continuously. The skaters could pick their music, one continous piece, in whatever rhythm was prescribed. Although it wasn't judged, the skaters used to almost always end their CDs with a little choreo lift.

 

[sap5]

I don’t necessarily want CDs to return— the judging was always suspect and overly political in my memory. I do want the skills dancers developed in the CD to return though. There is now no incentive to put in the hard work to learn these skills.

 

[kates8]

I'm sad that Lopareva & Brissaud have lost their quirkiness.

Ya, I think a lot feel the same about Gilles & Poirier but the judges weren't rewarding them with the quirk and they only started to get better recognition in terms of placements once they played the judges game and became more "traditional - with a side of quirky!". Its sad tho for teams who try something different and then revert back to the "norm" when they don't get rewarded like they should.

 

[Dobre]

Ya, I think a lot feel the same about Gilles & Poirier but the judges weren't rewarding them with the quirk and they only started to get better recognition in terms of placements once they played the judges game and became more "traditional - with a side of quirky!".

Naw, Lopareva & Brissaud have just changed their team.

They will probably learn some important skills in this new scenario, but the quirkiness and original flavor were a plus not a hindrance. I would hope that personality will be back.

 

[Peepsquick]

I don’t necessarily want CDs to return— the judging was always suspect and overly political in my memory. I do want the skills dancers developed in the CD to return though. There is now no incentive to put in the hard work to learn these skills.

I imagine that is was also somewhat mind numbing for the skaters themselves ... Like learning your latin declensions out of context ...

 

[beebee]

Except that now they've added qualification rounds to Worlds starting in the 2024-25 season, unless they rescind that at the 2024 Congress or pull whatever manuever the Council does when it wants something. (Rule 378 in the Special Regs.)

ETA: If they wanted to, they could reinstate the CD(s) instead of the quali round and drop the RD altogether.

I'd prefer that they take the RD and make it two circuits of the prescribed CD and one original pattern to the same track, and if they wanted tricks, they could let skaters pick two non-step elements -- leveled or choreographic -- and put one at the beginning and one at the end, but the CD_OSP would be done continuously. The skaters could pick their music, one continous piece, in whatever rhythm was prescribed. Although it wasn't judged, the skaters used to almost always end their CDs with a little choreo lift.

I like the concept you lay out immensely!

I'm also not happy with the changes to the FD over the past few years. The removal of the second Step Sequence (I assume to make room for the choreographic elements, which I don't like) took a lot of the "dance" out of the FD. Watching top teams perform two beautiful Step Sequences in mostly closed hold with few breaks, was a thing of beauty and, the highlight of the FD for me. Today, the one remaining Step Sequence is judged way too leniently imo and has lost its cachet.

One last thought. Thanks to Ted Barton's coverage of the JGP, some seasons back I became aware of the fabulous Karine Arribert-Narce. Her teams' programs are some of the most creative out there. So happy to see Demougeot/Le Mercier doing well on the GP circuit. And Dupayage/Nabais' FD is my favorite of this season.

 

[~tapdancer~]

Regarding CDs, I still laugh remembering this little piece from the Lillehammer 94 Olympics, featuring Scott Hamilton

A Humorous Piece on Watching the Compulsory Dances - 1994 Lillehammer, Ice Dancing

Hamar, NORWAY - 1994 Winter Games, Ice Dancing - A humorous piece on watching the Compulsory Dances featuring Scott Hamilton

youtu.be

 

[Belsornia]

Lopareva/Brissaud's programmes aren't bad this season, but they've gone with a fairly inexperienced choreographer and I think it shows. To me it seems like Cizeron - similar to many retired skaters getting started in choreography - has really made a programme for himself and Papadakis, so it's pretty open with lots of space to appreciate the pure quality and beauty of their basic skating. And L/B have good skating skills, but they're not P/C - they need the choreography to do a bit more of the work and bring out their personality.

 

[sap5]

Regarding CDs, I still laugh remembering this little piece from the Lillehammer 94 Olympics, featuring Scott Hamilton

A Humorous Piece on Watching the Compulsory Dances - 1994 Lillehammer, Ice Dancing

Hamar, NORWAY - 1994 Winter Games, Ice Dancing - A humorous piece on watching the Compulsory Dances featuring Scott Hamilton

youtu.be

Honestly, pieces like this are so irritating. I get that not everyone will like CDs, but some people would if someone bothered to explain what to look for?? If Scott doesn’t know, he should be ashamed of himself— it’s was job to know once he became a commentator! It’s not even hard to learn!!

 

[deegee]

Lopareva/Brissaud's programmes aren't bad this season, but they've gone with a fairly inexperienced choreographer and I think it shows. To me it seems like Cizeron - similar to many retired skaters getting started in choreography - has really made a programme for himself and Papadakis, so it's pretty open with lots of space to appreciate the pure quality and beauty of their basic skating. And L/B have good skating skills, but they're not P/C - they need the choreography to do a bit more of the work and bring out their personality.

i think this is exactly right. i hope mfd & haguenauer add a few more touches to beef up cizeron's choreography. love love love his skating, but a team like l&b need more experienced choreographers to put their names on the map.

 

[Dobre]

If Scott doesn’t know, he should be ashamed of himself— it’s was job to know once he became a commentator! It’s not even hard to learn!!

This fluff piece is exactly why I become annoyed whenever people complain about Tanith, Charlie, Ben, Carol, etc. Because if you don't have the expert ice dance commentators, you get stuck with the singles/pairs commentators that don't know anything about ice dance. Listening to Johnny in 2018 . (I don't hate Scott or Johnny as commentators, but neither has any business doing commentary on dance).

 

[~tapdancer~]

I personally loved the Compulsory Dances, always have and always will. But wow, some of you have lost your sense of humor, I guess. I didn't take offense at that little clip at all, even when I saw it live in 1994. It was funny.

 

[vireo]

Regarding CDs, I still laugh remembering this little piece from the Lillehammer 94 Olympics, featuring Scott Hamilton

A Humorous Piece on Watching the Compulsory Dances - 1994 Lillehammer, Ice Dancing

Hamar, NORWAY - 1994 Winter Games, Ice Dancing - A humorous piece on watching the Compulsory Dances featuring Scott Hamilton

youtu.be

Thank you so much for this link. I've been looking for this particular fluff piece for ages.

 

[BittyBug]

I don’t necessarily want CDs to return— the judging was always suspect and overly political in my memory. I do want the skills dancers developed in the CD to return though. There is now no incentive to put in the hard work to learn these skills.

The same could be said for figures.

 

[kwanfan1818]

CDs are dance, and they use the whole rink. There's one couple at a time. You can see them from the nosebleed seats, rather than having to put your nose down on the ice to see the tracings. The movement in figures is viscerally different than the speed and flow of free skating,

 

[barbarafan]

i think this is exactly right. i hope mfd & haguenauer add a few more touches to beef up cizeron's choreography. love love love his skating, but a team like l&b need more experienced choreographers to put their names on the map.

I did not notice much said about their transition to IAm. It seems like they went to MTL for choreo. from Cizeron & then decided to include them to their team. This was their first competition under their tuteledge. Mfd usually delves deep into the newbies personalities to detect their spark and then builds on it while Patrice drills on perfection of movement & brilliant twizzles. Once they have totally mastered the power and speed of the basic program there are prob. several things to be added in which at this point would not be possible. I expect to be double wowed by Europeans.

 

[Nmsis]

Today, I want to thank the skate gods for an injustice being repaired. At last.

And tell a little story

Once upon a time, there was a coach, named Karine Arribert, based in a village in the mountain. Focused on creativity, she started to bring up a little duo of ice dancers (2004). They were far from being the best but they loved what they were doing. But their creativity was so out there that, when they reached the senior level, they got the wrath of an ice-dance world stuck in certain codes where you must do what others are doing. They were threatened to be excluded if they didn’t change their costumes or their music or their choreographies. They stayed 4 seasons in senior before calling it quit (2011), burnt by the experience. During that time, the French federation had a one and only top level center policy, making sure no good dancer would ever think of going there.

In France, you either train the elite or “the nobodies”. And many lesser little dancers knocked at the door . So Arribert embrassed the nobodies, took them in the mountain and started a work of many years in ice-dance and in ballet on ice where she was excelling. And there, she invented an alternative world of ice-dance. A world in which nobody skates on the same music, where a music is very rarely used twice, where the types of music are different, where the costumes are different (Arribert draws all the costumes, I have doubt for a few ones where other influences -of new coaches ?- are being felt but they are few), where the interpretation is different, where the themes are different, much closer to youngsters’ taste, where the core work is movement and the rest is worked around that, where the philosophy is not “be the best or die” (yes, you can suck and still get great choreos).

Then the French federation decided to kill its top center. Slow death. It took 7 years to finish the job (2011-2018). So top little ice-dancers didn’t know where to go. Some still tried Lyon. Some called it quit as Guillaume, the Sun King, was shining too brightly for them . A few youngsters tried Villard. But there was nothing there ready for someone aiming at high level. So step by step, Arribert (who never went to high level herself, she stopped in junior) built an environment to foster them (since 2015-2016). They started by having steadier lifts, then complex lifts, then better skating, then better presentation, then their falling rate (very high at the beginning) started to drop. She surrounded herself with people connecting to her work and very young coaches.

And now, her ice-dancers are emerging in senior. Some very good, some less so. But all very interesting. She’s just making sure (IMHO) that, unlike the first time, her dancers won’t get emotionally hurt, so there are more concessions to the current world of ice-dance. A world that has already evolved a lot thanks to her. Because many have been peeking and taken their cues from her.


Little check list
Have you already seen a Bollywood program ?
Have you already seen a Zombie program ? Or a skeleton program ? Or something close to a Halloween ambiance program ?
Have you already seen a Doomsday program (ominous music / theme) ?
Have you listened to more and more cover songs (very useful when you don’t reuse music and when you consider that any music is usable, as long as it has the right ring to it, yeah, even covers in lullaby version) ?
Has pop and pop rock music invaded ice dance ? And not mandatorily in an “Singer X program” way.
Have you heard slam poetry in ice dance ?
Have you seen hoods in competitive costumes ?
Have you seen overalls ?
Have you seen asymmetric costumes lately ?
Have you seen asymmetric sleeves lately ? like only one sleeve and a naked arm, or one short and one long ?
Have you seen naked hunky male shoulders ? with a tight cut around the shoulder ?
Have you seen leggings under a skirt ?
Have you noticed how tighter upper male costumes are nowadays, compared to the 2000’s ?
Have you seen naturalistic interpretation, without excessive faces or “artificial” faces (stuck smiles or o faces) ?
Have you noticed how movement has been taking over drama ?


Well, welcome to Villard, the one and only holistic counter-proposal to Russian ice dance that has been feeding ice-dance for 18 years.

Usually, a couple doing a one shot “oh this is a program so different of what they usually do or what is usual in ice dance” is synonym with “oh, someone had a peek at Villard”.

Oh, beautiful lift ... or is it this lift ? ... or rather this one ?

Ah that so original Davis/White Bollywood program, … 6 years after Villard started to use Bollywood music (Chamma Chamma) and 3 years after their first Bollywood OD.

Ah that so original Ramalama zombie program from McNamara/Carpenter in 2012-2013, 3 years after Blanc/Bouquet’s.

Ah that so original slam program from Papadakis/Cizeron, 11 years after Blanc/Bouquet’s.



One-offs. While those are categories of programs in Villard. Well, not slam. Villard was burnt so much for this one. I think Arribert never wanted one of her couples to go through that ever again.

So to make my point more visual, I’ve actually done a crazy thing. I’ve mapped Villard’s FDs from the last 18 years (from all the little juniors/novices she had, yep, I'm crazy like that) . With categories of programs, musics and costumes to underline how different and structured the whole thing is.

What it doesn’t show is how evolutive that is, because when a new kind of program appears, you can guess that sooner or later, a little sister program will pop up and that a branch will be developed out of it. Neither does it show that some themes have crossed the RD threshold. Like the zombie/skeleton/magical thing, the Bollywood thing or how the classics of ice-dance get pollinated by other themes to make them something else.

The good news is that Arribert now has dancers to show her work, rather than be “an inspiration” and be dismissed at the same time because she’s not into “elite”.

With Demougeot / Le Mercier in senior and Fradji / Fourneaux in junior, she is not dismissable any more.
Plus Dupayage / Nabais, plus that memorable Swan Lake program from Koch / Melnyk (still to be skated perfectly but it is sooo much fun), plus the others.

Villard all the way !

 

[VGThuy]

Today, I want to thank the skate gods for an injustice being repaired. At last.

And tell a little story

Once upon a time, there was a coach, named Karine Arribert, based in a village in the mountain. Focused on creativity, she started to bring up a little duo of ice dancers (2004). They were far from being the best but they loved what they were doing. But their creativity was so out there that, when they reached the senior level, they got the wrath of an ice-dance world stuck in certain codes where you must do what others are doing. They were threatened to be excluded if they didn’t change their costumes or their music or their choreographies. They stayed 4 seasons in senior before calling it quit (2011), burnt by the experience. During that time, the French federation had a one and only top level center policy, making sure no good dancer would ever think of going there.

In France, you either train the elite or “the nobodies”. And many lesser little dancers knocked at the door . So Arribert embrassed the nobodies, took them in the mountain and started a work of many years in ice-dance and in ballet on ice where she was excelling. And there, she invented an alternative world of ice-dance. A world in which nobody skates on the same music, where a music is very rarely used twice, where the types of music are different, where the costumes are different (Arribert draws all the costumes, I have doubt for a few ones where other influences -of new coaches ?- are being felt but they are few), where the interpretation is different, where the themes are different, much closer to youngsters’ taste, where the core work is movement and the rest is worked around that, where the philosophy is not “be the best or die” (yes, you can suck and still get great choreos).

Then the French federation decided to kill its top center. Slow death. It took 7 years to finish the job (2011-2018). So top little ice-dancers didn’t know where to go. Some still tried Lyon. Some called it quit as Guillaume, the Sun King, was shining too brightly for them . A few youngsters tried Villard. But there was nothing there ready for someone aiming at high level. So step by step, Arribert (who never went to high level herself, she stopped in junior) built an environment to foster them (since 2015-2016). They started by having steadier lifts, then complex lifts, then better skating, then better presentation, then their falling rate (very high at the beginning) started to drop. She surrounded herself with people connecting to her work and very young coaches.

And now, her ice-dancers are emerging in senior. Some very good, some less so. But all very interesting. She’s just making sure (IMHO) that, unlike the first time, her dancers won’t get emotionally hurt, so there are more concessions to the current world of ice-dance. A world that has already evolved a lot thanks to her. Because many have been peeking and taken their cues from her.


Little check list
Have you already seen a Bollywood program ?
Have you already seen a Zombie program ? Or a skeleton program ? Or something close to a Halloween ambiance program ?
Have you already seen a Doomsday program (ominous music / theme) ?
Have you listened to more and more cover songs (very useful when you don’t reuse music and when you consider that any music is usable, as long as it has the right ring to it, yeah, even covers in lullaby version) ?
Has pop and pop rock music invaded ice dance ? And not mandatorily in an “Singer X program” way.
Have you heard slam poetry in ice dance ?
Have you seen hoods in competitive costumes ?
Have you seen overalls ?
Have you seen asymmetric costumes lately ?
Have you seen asymmetric sleeves lately ? like only one sleeve and a naked arm, or one short and one long ?
Have you seen naked hunky male shoulders ? with a tight cut around the shoulder ?
Have you seen leggings under a skirt ?
Have you noticed how tighter upper male costumes are nowadays, compared to the 2000’s ?
Have you seen naturalistic interpretation, without excessive faces or “artificial” faces (stuck smiles or o faces) ?
Have you noticed how movement has been taking over drama ?


Well, welcome to Villard, the one and only holistic counter-proposal to Russian ice dance that has been feeding ice-dance for 18 years.

Usually, a couple doing a one shot “oh this is a program so different of what they usually do or what is usual in ice dance” is synonym with “oh, someone had a peek at Villard”.

Oh, beautiful lift ... or is it this lift ? ... or rather this one ?

Ah that so original Davis/White Bollywood program, … 6 years after Villard started to use Bollywood music (Chamma Chamma) and 3 years after their first Bollywood OD.

Ah that so original Ramalama zombie program from McNamara/Carpenter in 2012-2013, 3 years after Blanc/Bouquet’s.

Ah that so original slam program from Papadakis/Cizeron, 11 years after Blanc/Bouquet’s.



One-offs. While those are categories of programs in Villard. Well, not slam. Villard was burnt so much for this one. I think Arribert never wanted one of her couples to go through that ever again.

So to make my point more visual, I’ve actually done a crazy thing. I’ve mapped Villard’s FDs from the last 18 years (from all the little juniors/novices she had, yep, I'm crazy like that) . With categories of programs, musics and costumes to underline how different and structured the whole thing is.

What it doesn’t show is how evolutive that is, because when a new kind of program appears, you can guess that sooner or later, a little sister program will pop up and that a branch will be developed out of it. Neither does it show that some themes have crossed the RD threshold. Like the zombie/skeleton/magical thing, the Bollywood thing or how the classics of ice-dance get pollinated by other themes to make them something else.

The good news is that Arribert now has dancers to show her work, rather than be “an inspiration” and be dismissed at the same time because she’s not into “elite”.

With Demougeot / Le Mercier in senior and Fradji / Fourneaux in junior, she is not dismissable any more.
Plus Dupayage / Nabais, plus that memorable Swan Lake program from Koch / Melnyk (still to be skated perfectly but it is sooo much fun), plus the others.

Villard all the way !

That was such an eye-opening and brilliant story for any ice dance fan to read. I highly recommend all ice dance fans (either casual or hardcore) read this.

 

[On My Own]

@Nmsis loved it!

 

[thvu]

This is awesome @Nmsis !! I had no idea about any of that. The Villard teams are the best thing about ice dance right now. I’m now extra grateful for Arribert’s genius!