Michelle Kwan (Threads Merged)

I think there were only three levels on spins and steps back in 2006, but I can't find my old scale of values.

You could repeat the heck out of difficult variations, though.

I know in her 2009 exhibitions, she did a reverse entrance to her corkscrew spin. That made me think that she was looking at doing maybe even that as her lay back for the short program. If she could have done a reverse entrance to the corkscrew, then held that for eight revs, then sneaked her free leg up the back of her supporting leg and grabbed it with her hand to do a lay back catch foot, that would have been level four, since the corkscrew was a sideways leaning position.
 
Coco said:
I think there were only three levels on spins and steps back in 2006, but I can't find my old scale of values.

You could repeat the heck out of difficult variations, though.

I know in her 2009 exhibitions, she did a reverse entrance to her corkscrew spin. That made me think that she was looking at doing maybe even that as her lay back for the short program. If she could have done a reverse entrance to the corkscrew, then held that for eight revs, then sneaked her free leg up the back of her supporting leg and grabbed it with her hand to do a lay back catch foot, that would have been level four, since the corkscrew was a sideways leaning position.
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Ooooh, I didn’t think of that variation. Would there be an issue if the caller wouldn’t have considered that a real sideways leaning position? Also, with IJS, it seems sideways spins are more of a feature to a layback than its own spin, is there a way to just do a sideways spin without the layback and have it considered a “layback” aka not get a zero in the SP for the required layback spin?

For the 2005-06 season, they introduced the level four, which is why this is the first season you saw nearly every female skater who could do a Biellman spin after their layback do it. Even Miki Ando who had a horrible actual layback position. I remember when Emily Hughes did it at Skate America at the beginning of that season and posters here were wondering what that was, why she did it, and if that was allowed. It was that novel haha.
 
They've always differentiated between an upright spin and a layback spin. One of the possible features for a layback spin is to go from sideways leaning to lay back. I know there's a definition somewhere of how much lay there has to be in the lay back and how much lean there has to be in the sideways spin, but I can't remember the criteria. If she didn't fulfill that criteria, it's possible that the callar could say that's not a lay back. Now now they would just say that's an upright spin in one position. But back then it had to be a lay back.

The trick in the short program, too, would be that she would have to hold the sideways position for at least eight revolutions before she grabbed her foot. And I don't see how anyone could go from that corkscrew position to a true lay back without grabbing the foot.

I have also fantasized that she would take the ending choreographic leap and twirl she did in 1997, and somehow make that an entrance to her corkscrew spin position. It would have counted as a difficult flying entrance because it lands on the same foot that it takes off from. There has always been a flying lay back in the scale of values, but I think it's only been attempted a few times.
 
Coco said:
They've always differentiated between an upright spin and a layback spin. One of the possible features for a layback spin is to go from sideways leaning to lay back. I know there's a definition somewhere of how much lay there has to be in the lay back and how much lean there has to be in the sideways spin, but I can't remember the criteria. The trick in the short program would be that she would have to hold the sideways position for at least eight revolutions before she grabbed her foot. And I don't see how anyone could go from that corkscrew position to a true lay back without grabbing the foot.

I have also fantasized that she would take the ending choreographic leap and twirl she did in 1997, and somehow make that an entrance to her corkscrew spin position. It would have counted as a difficult flying entrance because it lands on the same foot that it takes off from. There has always been a flying lay back in the scale of values, but I think it's only been attempted a few times.
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Looking at the technical handbook (it’s the most recent one but I’m sure the layback description and SP rules for laybacks were the same back then) this is how they described the layback/Sideways spin requirement:

Layback Spin is an upright spin in which head and shoulders are leaning backwards with the back arched. The position of the free leg is optional.
Sideways Leaning Spin is an upright spin in which head and shoulders are leaning sideways and the upper body is arched. The position of the free leg is optional.
In any spin change of edge can be counted only if done in a basic position.
Click to expand...

Unlike 2006, now women skaters don’t have to do that and can do a

sit/camel spin
without change of foot; (position different from the landing position
of the Flying spin);
Click to expand...
Which we know a camel is worth less 0.1 less than a layback and a sit spin is worth 0.2 less.

Anyway, speaking of laybacks, I remember looking at the protocols for the 2018 Olympics ladies LP and saw how much the layback was worth in base value. Knowing that a layback is not required in the LP, I wondered why so many great spinners wasted their time for a spin that is worth a BV of 2.7 or whatever it is now when they could fulfill the single position spin requirement with a change of foot camel or sit for a 3.2. I know it’s only plus 0.5, but every little bit counts and they GOE is higher…for example a +5 GOE for a level 4 layback maxes out at 4.05 but a change of foot camel or sit is 4.80 aka 0.75…nearly a point!

For fun, I played around with the requirements for the LP and for the flying spin, I’d either try to go for a level four flying camel that would garner a 3.2 with a 4.8 max score or go for a flying change of foot combo spin that is worth a 3.5. With a max GOE, that spin is worth 5.25! Either one would meet the flying spin requirement.

*one can use the flying camel as their one position spin requirement but then they’d have to do another flying spin as well and to get the best score they should do a flying combo change of foot spin. I’m trying to minimize labor though.

Then for a combo spin, I’d try to do a level 4 change of foot combo spin that everyone does that is worth 3.5 -with a max GOE that spin is worth 5.25.

Looking at the 2021 Skate America protocols, I see what I described is what Eteri has Trusova doing, except she only got a level 3 on her flying camel.

@Coco, your idea of Kwan doing a flying layback spin would be worth a 3.2 today and could substitute in for any of the flying spins I stated above.
 
Laybacks in the short program can be in the form of traditional laybacks or sideways leaning spins - either position would satisfy the requirement, and doing both is a feature. That said I never saw Michelle do a sideways leaning position. Back laybacks are horrific, remember Fumie?! I don't think she should do one even if she could.

Michelle had said she simply couldn't do the Biellman so she would most likely have to settle for level 3 - a classic layback to dropped leg acceleration (1) and holding for 8 revs (2) to catchfoot (3) was doable for Michelle and would be a level 3.

In the FS, she should aim for a flying solo or combo spin, a flying change foot combo spin, and a change foot combo spin for max base value. Something like this:

1. Butterfly (1) back camel - FI edge (2) - sit 8 revs (3) - Y (4) for level 4
2. Flying camel - sit - Y (1) change sit - Y (2) change corkscrew (3), the 4th feature being 2 changes of foot / 4 changes of basic position
3. Camel - FO edge (1) - sit - Y (2) change cannonball sit (3) - Y (4) for level 4
 
Marco said:
Laybacks in the short program can be in the form of traditional laybacks or sideways leaning spins - either position would satisfy the requirement, and doing both is a feature. That said I never saw Michelle do a sideways leaning position. Back laybacks are horrific, remember Fumie?! I don't think she should do one even if she could.

Michelle had said she simply couldn't do the Biellman so she would most likely have to settle for level 3 - a classic layback to dropped leg acceleration (1) and holding for 8 revs (2) to catchfoot (3) was doable for Michelle and would be a level 3.

In the FS, she should aim for a flying solo or combo spin, a flying change foot combo spin, and a change foot combo spin for max base value. Something like this:

1. Butterfly (1) back camel - FI edge (2) - sit 8 revs (3) - Y (4) for level 4
2. Flying camel - sit - Y (1) change sit - Y (2) change corkscrew (3), the 4th feature being 2 changes of foot / 4 changes of basic position
3. Camel - FO edge (1) - sit - Y (2) change cannonball sit (3) - Y (4) for level 4
Click to expand...
She needed a fourth spin for the LP back in 2005-06, what would you recommend?
 
@Marco, you don't consider her corkscrew position to be sideways leaning? I think it would have been called as a sideways leaning spin.

For a forwards layback, I'm not sure she would have achieved the dropped leg/acceleration feature, callers were quite stingy about that and required lots of speed. But I think she could have pulled off a difficult entrance. Did she ever do a Charlotte on her left leg? That would have been 'her' entrance, imo.

In 2006, there were 4 spins required, but you could repeat difficult variations all day long.

Arakawa's flying camel @ 1:39 of attached video


Arakawa's camel spin @ 3:02

It's basically the same spin with different entrances, although the 2nd time around she misses the change of edge feature. Perhaps she didn't need it?

Also, because it relates to the POV thread, check out her salchows at around 1:10 and 3:30.
 
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Coco said:
@Marco, you don't consider her corkscrew position to be sideways leaning? I think it would have been called as a sideways leaning spin.

For a forwards layback, I'm not sure she would have achieved the dropped leg/acceleration feature, callers were quite stingy about that and required lots of speed. But I think she could have pulled off a difficult entrance. Did she ever do a Charlotte on her left leg? That would have been 'her' entrance, imo.

In 2006, there were 4 spins required, but you could repeat difficult variations all day long.
Click to expand...
That’s how we got Irina doing like three Biellmans and Arakawa doing three donut spins.
 
VGThuy said:
She needed a fourth spin for the LP back in 2005-06, what would you recommend?
Click to expand...
I can't remember how the rule changes went but she could certainly have changed the spins around and done her camel in the other direction as a feature at some point (i'm not sure about 2005/2006) I know the rules changed so that merely spinning in the other direction no longer qualified as a feature and you had to do other things but i think working on holding it for 8 revs in the other direction would have clocked up two features then spinning in the normal direction with an edge change and one other feature could have got her to level four change foot combination spin (if it would count as such, i seem to remember there needing to be a rule clarification at some point about that being counted as one spin combination and not two separate ones).

I can't remember the footwork sequence rules at the time but she definitely attempted a counter and some rockers in her non dominant direction that I spotted on just one viewing.

To be honest watching the whole performance I thought she looked painfully slow, the spins looked really slow and laboured and the jumps lacked the pop that she could get on them before she was injured.

Even the spirals didn't look so great to me. The change edge spiral was good, but having to add the other positions and hold them for the 3 seconds the rules required looked awkward and slow....getting rid of the levelled spiral sequences was one of the best rule changes they made - it made spiral sequences unwatchable to me.
 
antmanb said:
I can't remember how the rule changes went but she could certainly have changed the spins around and done her camel in the other direction as a feature at some point (i'm not sure about 2005/2006) I know the rules changed so that merely spinning in the other direction no longer qualified as a feature and you had to do other things but i think working on holding it for 8 revs in the other direction would have clocked up two features then spinning in the normal direction with an edge change and one other feature could have got her to level four change foot combination spin (if it would count as such, i seem to remember there needing to be a rule clarification at some point about that being counted as one spin combination and not two separate ones).

I can't remember the footwork sequence rules at the time but she definitely attempted a counter and some rockers in her non dominant direction that I spotted on just one viewing.

To be honest watching the whole performance I thought she looked painfully slow, the spins looked really slow and laboured and the jumps lacked the pop that she could get on them before she was injured.

Even the spirals didn't look so great to me. The change edge spiral was good, but having to add the other positions and hold them for the 3 seconds the rules required looked awkward and slow....getting rid of the levelled spiral sequences was one of the best rule changes they made - it made spiral sequences unwatchable to me.
Click to expand...
I actually thought she was pretty blazing in the spiral sequence as it took her no time at all to reach the other end of the rink and then that last spiral - as awkwardly long as it was with that beating music - curved really well and covered a lot of ice in a really flexible position. Her footwork actually flowed and her one-foot steps had much more glide than what we were used to seeing from her with her footwork sequences. It actually looks a lot more "contemporary" than what most of the ladies were doing in Torino. Too bad she didn't develop and build on those skills two seasons prior. Imagine what she could have been like by 2005-06. I don't think she looked painfully slow either (I guess I'm comparing her to other performances and programs where she was slower) as she was moving across that ice really well and with a smoothness. She's not going to be blazing like skaters today, but I think she was catching up to Irina speed, and honestly, so many of the skaters ended up being a bit slow by Torino - in the LP I mean as I remember Irina being fast in the SP.
 
I've gone back and watched quite a lot of 6.0 skating recently and it really confirms to me that today's skaters have worked so hard on their basics in order to hit the criteria for PCS and levelling in step sequences/spins.

Watching what skaters did as footwork and spins under 6.0 is laughable compared to the skills skaters these days show....what was it the men had to do in the SP at one point - change foot camel or change foot sit and some of them would receive deductions for being short on the 6(?) revolutions required on each foot. It's rare you see an elite skater do a change foot spin with fewer than 10 revs on each foot these days.

This Kwan performance is really the performance of a 6.0 skater trying to shoe-horn themselves into the "new" scoring system. The USFSA not adopting the IJS for domestic competitions and Kwan not getting many international competitions under her belt under IJS meant this is the kind of programme skaters might have been putting out a season or two before this. She was too far behind the learning curve on IJS and needed at least one more season in addition to this one to settle into the demands of the scoring system.
 
Speaking of basics, I believe it was 2001 Four Continents where Jenny Kirk was competing, and the ABC crew were commentating. I believe Terry brought up that Nobou Sato was one of Peggy's peers as he competed in the same Olympics she did (forgot if it was 1964 or 1968). Anyway, Peggy started waxing poetic about Fumie, Yoshie, and Shizuka and how much she loved the way Sato really prioritized and taught such great knee bend and deep edges. I think by the early 2000s, things were moving towards harder footwork and more emphasis on spinning and showing off better basics.

Every era of skating evolves. I think focus on the basics took a back seat for a bit once compulsories gone because every skater and their coach were rushing to get them a triple lutz consistently and try to do 7 triples. It's no shock that the era after Nagano, all the baby ballerinas came up and were out-spinning Kwan. They and their coaches were watching what that generation was lacking and they saw that it was spins.

Regarding footwork, there were some good footwork sequences in the early 2000s after Scott Hamilton was bemoaning the fact that footwork was a dying art during Ilia Kulik's 1998 Olympic SP, and then things picked up when Alexei Yagudin made Morosovian footwork famous. Skaters saw how "impressive" it was or at least how the audience reacted. Suddenly, every skater started to emote and make footwork the highlight element of their program - Daisuke's 2005-06 LP being one of my faves.

I believe even without IJS, footwork and harder spins were going to be the "next frontier" in the evolution of figure skating. IJS just sort of formalized it, gave it points, and made it much more explicit that you cannot score well anymore without working on harder spins and you won't get a level 3-4 on footwork unless you do a great number of actual and difficult steps/turns and show mastery and control over it. It sort of rushed the evolution and we had skaters uncomfortably trying to adapt to it which resulted in some truly ugly skating. I think it took 2-3 Olympic cycles to where we now have competitors who were literally born after IJS was adopted to make it seem more "natural" but boy do I wish for some good taste and much more emphasis on line, holding edges, carriage, actual personality/variety, and overall aesthetics and coherency. Maybe that's the next frontier....nah...it's quads quads and more quads.
 
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Marco said:
The few times she skated in 2005 and 2006 where she tried COP spins I felt she had it in her to do these features but just needed a lot more practice time to make them level 4 and make them work. She showed that she was capable of catchfoot layback, Y spins, camel on FI edge / FO edge, sit on FO edge, bent leg camel, tucked under sit, cannonball sit, reverse camel etc, just maybe not all together.

She already wasn't a strong spinner (and compared to Turnino medalists) and was visibly struggling to keep up with those spins. By Turino all the top ladies were doing level 4 spins and Michelle was attempting some features but all her spins were level 2 at best and let's not even go into GOEs. Even if she had the practice time I am guessing her focus would have been on jumps. At 2005 Worlds we saw how the lack of prior COP competition experience hurt her. It was going to be the same for Turino if she competed.
Click to expand...

Did Michelle ever do Biellmans? No?
 
Marco said:
Laybacks in the short program can be in the form of traditional laybacks or sideways leaning spins - either position would satisfy the requirement, and doing both is a feature. That said I never saw Michelle do a sideways leaning position. Back laybacks are horrific, remember Fumie?! I don't think she should do one even if she could.

Michelle had said she simply couldn't do the Biellman so she would most likely have to settle for level 3 - a classic layback to dropped leg acceleration (1) and holding for 8 revs (2) to catchfoot (3) was doable for Michelle and would be a level 3.

In the FS, she should aim for a flying solo or combo spin, a flying change foot combo spin, and a change foot combo spin for max base value. Something like this:

1. Butterfly (1) back camel - FI edge (2) - sit 8 revs (3) - Y (4) for level 4
2. Flying camel - sit - Y (1) change sit - Y (2) change corkscrew (3), the 4th feature being 2 changes of foot / 4 changes of basic position
3. Camel - FO edge (1) - sit - Y (2) change cannonball sit (3) - Y (4) for level 4
Click to expand...

AH, OK..I got ahead of myself. The answer is here...If I sleep more than 8 hours it take some time in the mornings to catch up here!!!!
 
AngieNikodinovLove said:
She had FAB sit spins and FAB camels..but not so much on laybacks... After her visits to the spin doctor they were better.

Is it all about lumbar flexibility?
Click to expand...
I think so. I also think had she been born like four years later or something, she would have been taught better spins. Kwan's back bend was always pretty good actually - she just couldn't do the extreme arch on it or have a deep back bend with a raised leg. Kwan also said she had to work really hard on her flexibility as a kid as it wasn't as natural for her. She did it to compete with the likes of Bobek and her spirals. Boy, I'm glad Kwan worked on her stretch. Wish she didn't stop there though haha. On her Instagram, when she shows off yoga or pilates poses, she sure is more flexible now than she was back then.
 
VGThuy said:
Regarding footwork, there were some good footwork sequences in the early 2000s after Scott Hamilton was bemoaning the fact that footwork was a dying art during Ilia Kulik's 1998 Olympic SP, and then things picked up when Alexei Yagudin made Morosovian footwork famous.
Click to expand...
Yagudin's Winter and Man in the Iron Mask are two programmes that have not held up well over the years to me....the steps in Winter look kind of ridiculous now.

I will say that (especially for the time) Kwan's steps into her 3T solo jump in the 90s were substantial and notable in as much as they would have passed for a straightline step sequence at the time if they went end to end, and they weren't far from being end to end. Also Kwan's 90s and early 00s programmes held up pretty well unlike Yags.
 
antmanb said:
Yagudin's Winter and Man in the Iron Mask are two programmes that have not held up well over the years to me....the steps in Winter look kind of ridiculous now.

I will say that (especially for the time) Kwan's steps into her 3T solo jump in the 90s were substantial and notable in as much as they would have passed for a straightline step sequence at the time if they went end to end, and they weren't far from being end to end. Also Kwan's 90s and early 00s programmes held up pretty well unlike Yags.
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I totally agree with you regarding Yags, but someone had to start the footwork trend somewhere haha. Although the actual steps have moved away from Morosov-style toe-picking, the sort of showmanship and upper-body emphasis is still seen in the footwork sequences of today - if dialed down a bit as the skaters now save the overwrought expressions for the choreo sequence (if there is an actual choreo sequence to be seen despite what the callers say).
 
Michelle also was skating during the post-whack boom. Not only did she have the usual "big 5" each year (2 GP events, GPF, Nats and Worlds) for the bulk of her career, but she also had tours of over 60+ plus shows, and cheesefests/pro-ams. Her body took an unusual amount of pounding.
 
attyfan said:
Michelle also was skating during the post-whack boom. Not only did she have the usual "big 5" each year (2 GP events, GPF, Nats and Worlds) for the bulk of her career, but she also had tours of over 60+ plus shows, and cheesefests/pro-ams. Her body took an unusual amount of pounding.
Click to expand...
Seriously. She may not have done 4CC but she did do a lot of competitions and specials during her prime. During her 1995-96 season, didn't she do a tour in-between Nationals and Worlds?
 
VGThuy said:
She needed a fourth spin for the LP back in 2005-06, what would you recommend?
Click to expand...
That's right. A fourth spin is a mandatory single position spin, for her I think the best choice is upright. Back entry (1) to Y (2) change Y (3) change upright would do, with a 4th feature being the second foot of foot.
 
Coco said:
@Marco, you don't consider her corkscrew position to be sideways leaning? I think it would have been called as a sideways leaning spin.

For a forwards layback, I'm not sure she would have achieved the dropped leg/acceleration feature, callers were quite stingy about that and required lots of speed. But I think she could have pulled off a difficult entrance. Did she ever do a Charlotte on her left leg? That would have been 'her' entrance, imo.
Click to expand...
I don't think back layback was a 'thing' in 2006 yet. It's permissible but why?! Look at the few that were done between 2007 and 2010. Eww.

I am more inclined to call her corkscrew position a difficult upright variation instead of a layback variation but I haven't studied the definitions.

For the layback feature, just look at the way she did the layback in 2000 (turned out foot but slow) and then 2001 (dropped foot but fast) - if she did both I am pretty much that can satisfy the acceleration feature - or I should probably say it's easier for her to focus on achieving this feature than to do a Charlotte entrance. :p I don't even know if a difficult entrance is a feature for the layback.

Let's not kid ourselves with these spin features for Michelle :P
 
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