POV for Assessing Jump Rotation

[SkateFanBerlin]

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at other than the half loop (Euler) being a bit smoother In Ashley's case. There's still a connecting Euler in between the jumps as @skatingguy has explained just above me. I think you're trying to say that the Euler needs to be done in a certain kind of way and not the Chartrand or Pogorilaya way, if I have it correct.

Also, no offense, but Wagner's 3T on the end of her combos and her 3S on the end of an Euler was always pretty underrotated and therefore shouldn't get the same points as anyone doing a 3+3 true combo or a 3+Euler+3 combo clean anyways

I sort of screwed up my explanation. She does the 3Lo, then the 1/2 loop. She takes off direcctly from the landing of 1/2 loop to perform the 3S. There's no swooping around with 2 feet on the ground getting up steam for the 3S. I think it must be easier to do the combination this second way.

Yes, like many ladies Ashley had trouble getting full credit for both parts of the 3-3. However on this occasion her 3Lo3S got the HIGHEST score of any element in the ladies' free skate.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Wagner did 3Lo+1Lo+3S at the 2016 World Championships not 3Lo+3S. Taking your time between jumps in a combo is not a reason to penalize the skater as long as the flow & speed are maintained between the jumps.

It's not taking the time that's a problem; I hate rushed jumps. It's putting two feet on the ground, swooping around to get steam up for the 2nd jump that's the problem.

 

[MacMadame]

It's putting two feet on the ground,

I doubt most skaters are putting two feet on the ground. I know that the salchow looks like that for a lot of skaters but they don't actually touch the ice. It's just the angle we are seeing it from that makes it seem that way.

 

[gkelly]

I doubt most skaters are putting two feet on the ground. I know that the salchow looks like that for a lot of skaters but they don't actually touch the ice. It's just the angle we are seeing it from that makes it seem that way.

If they did put the other foot on the ice, and if the tech panel saw that, they would call the element as first jump + COMBO + last jump (or first jump + 1Eu + COMBO + last jump) and anything after the +COMBO designation would be asterisked.

If they don't call it that way, that means they didn't see the skater ever having two feet on the ice. If there are any rotation (or edge) calls on the element, we know they reviewed it. If not, but if the Euler or other part of the combination was especially messy looking, they probably reviewed it.

 

[VGThuy]

All I know is that when I see a 3-jump combo containing an Euler, I want to see a real Euler that pops, not some wimpy one that actually looks like the skater took a step in-between the two triples.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

I doubt most skaters are putting two feet on the ground. I know that the salchow looks like that for a lot of skaters but they don't actually touch the ice. It's just the angle we are seeing it from that makes it seem that way.

Well...

There is an older technique for Salchows that does involve very mildly "scraping" the free foot on the ice during the set-up. I was originally taught this method, but wound up later learning the version where the free leg stays up. When I get tired, I have a bad tendency to revert to The Scrape, LOL.

But to your point: The scraping foot isn't being used to do the rotation, push up into the jump, etc. It's not possible, speaking from personal experience. It is purely about controlling the positioning of the free leg in the set-up, especially for skaters who have a tendency to rush through the entry or swing too wide, ultimately throwing their bodies outside the circle.

 

[On My Own]

Well...

There is an older technique for Salchows that does involves very mildly "scraping" the free foot on the ice during the set-up. I was originally taught this method, but wound up later learning the version where the free leg stays up. When I get tired, I have a bad tendency to revert to The Scrape, LOL.

But to your point: The scraping foot isn't being used to do the rotation, push up into the jump, etc. It's not possible, speaking from personal experience. It is purely about controlling the positioning of the free leg in the set-up, especially for skaters who have a tendency to rush through the entry or swing too wide, ultimately throwing their bodies outside the circle.

Are there video examples for what you're talking about? It reminds me more of Yuna Kim's salchow vs Mao Asada's earlier in her career. (same position on legs, but Yuna mildly scrapes... and Mao switched to mildly scraping later in her career)

There's a current "two-foot" technique used by Eteri girls and some others, that isn't "mild" in scraping but I guess technically a salchow. https://youtu.be/k6QfUe-bVH0?t=66 (also later with the 4T+Eu+3S)

Anna Shcherbakova: https://youtu.be/CnzIqmfV4JA?t=190

 

[Sylvia]

Well...

There is an older technique for Salchows that does involve very mildly "scraping" the free foot on the ice during the set-up.

A la Tim Goebel?

 

[On My Own]

A la Tim Goebel?

Tim Goebel's seems like the other kind, too https://youtu.be/zQXiiknXAH8?t=79

So I'm curious. I thought this wasn't "older", rather newer that was made to jump quad sals more easily.

ETA: Alexander Abt https://youtu.be/utDVV4eN3rU?t=166

 

[robinhood]

Great thread!
I was wondering these days about the quad toes of Maiia Kromykh of Russia. They look odd for some reason and I can't figure out why exactly, specially compared to the ones of Valieva or the men. Could anybody give me a clue?
thanks, and I don't want to offend anyone, just sinceresly asking for info

 

[skatingguy]

Great thread!
I was wondering these days about the quad toes of Maiia Kromykh of Russia. They look odd for some reason and I can't figure out why exactly, specially compared to the ones of Valieva or the men. Could anybody give me a clue?
thanks, and I don't want to offend anyone, just sinceresly asking for info

The only thing that I see with Kromykh's quad toe that is a little unusual is that she goes around the corner while setting up the jump instead of doing it in a straight line.

 

[bladesofgorey]

There is definitely a two foot salchow takeoff being taught by many coaches, including coaches in the US. The technique is that the free foot rests on the ice and helps guide and then deepen the take-off edge, kicking through and upward once the skater has pivoted to forward. Some coaches even teach the free foot staying on the ice and sliding through with the heel leaving the ice last, similar to a toeloop. (I think this technique is ugly but it's seen as valid)

 

[VGThuy]

Yuka Sato almost always landed her Triple Salchows and it looks like she was a scraper:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AoWHcHhxag

 

[antmanb]

I think the Euler used between triples is a very different jump than the Euler done for choreographic purposes on its own.

For one a large number of skater land the first triple and take the free leg back like an ordinary jump landing or as if they are drawing back to pick for a toe-loop and then keep the actual jump of the Euler small (low and long) and twisting into the free leg, as opposed to keeping the free leg checked in front and jumping as if it was a loop jump.

 

[On My Own]

Some coaches even teach the free foot staying on the ice and sliding through with the heel leaving the ice last, similar to a toeloop. (I think this technique is ugly but it's seen as valid)

Yes, this one! Ugly for sure, and confusing as to where the line is between the toe loop and the salchow. Some blur the line even further and make it look like a loop by putting excessive weight on the RBO (... and then have that loop-like technique for the lutz and flip, too, lol, basically doing 4 loops and one toe loop and... one salchow that they call an axel).

There is definitely a two foot salchow takeoff being taught by many coaches, including coaches in the US. The technique is that the free foot rests on the ice and helps guide and then deepen the take-off edge, kicking through and upward once the skater has pivoted to forward.

This is the one we see with skaters like Hanyu and Fernandez, I think.

 

[On My Own]

All I know is that when I see a 3-jump combo containing an Euler, I want to see a real Euler that pops, not some wimpy one that actually looks like the skater took a step in-between the two triples.

https://youtu.be/WXhaJJFnNus?t=195 ???

 

[On My Own]

I was wondering these days about the quad toes of Maiia Kromykh of Russia. They look odd for some reason and I can't figure out why exactly, specially compared to the ones of Valieva or the men. Could anybody give me a clue?

She swings her free leg far too wide compared to the men: https://youtu.be/MdfnfGjReEg?t=63 (go frame by frame at 1:04 and you'll notice it). Doesn't get good vault as a result, and has too little rotation overall... How it's done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvYh9T52foY or https://youtu.be/MhU2yiWBUwc?t=71

Sorry for multiple posting.

 

[VGThuy]

https://youtu.be/WXhaJJFnNus?t=195 ???

YES!

Look at Nathan Chen as well. He jumps into the third jump. Heck, even Tara Lipinski, who some fans note had small elevation on her jumps, actually jumped the Euler in her 3Toe/Euler/3Salchow combo (and at the very end!).

https://youtu.be/mRHzAt2fwqs?t=248

I think this is what the drafters had in mind when they decided to change the rules to make 3/1/3s actual combos and not sequences like they had before (which hurt their overall point total).

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Are there video examples for what you're talking about? It reminds me more of Yuna Kim's salchow vs Mao Asada's earlier in her career. (same position on legs, but Yuna mildly scrapes... and Mao switched to mildly scraping later in her career)

There's a current "two-foot" technique used by Eteri girls and some others, that isn't "mild" in scraping but I guess technically a salchow. https://youtu.be/k6QfUe-bVH0?t=66 (also later with the 4T+Eu+3S)

Anna Shcherbakova: https://youtu.be/CnzIqmfV4JA?t=190

Thanks for the Shcherbakova. That's exactly what I've seen. The landing of the Euler, both feet planted on the ice, booth feet user to lift the Salchow. ISU needs to clarify this post Oly's.

 

[antmanb]

Some blur the line even further and make it look like a loop by putting excessive weight on the RBO

Do you have an example of this, because it makes no sense to me from a jump technique point of view. The mechanics of the salchow work by driving the free leg from extended behind and driving it through like a pendulum. Scraping the inside edge of the free foot across the ice for stability is one thing. I don't really buy the idea that putting a lot of weight on the free leg as it's coming through would really help the mechanics of the jump but I guess it might (Tim Goebel did seem to get some push off the inside edge of the free skate).

The outside edge of the free leg getting involved would require the free leg to remain behind the skater and basically in a loop set up position, or if it was next to or in front of the skater (which is the path it needs to take to execute the salchow) the foot would have to be leaning in the wrong direction for the salchow. For any multi-revolution version of the jump you want the toe to point in the direction you are going to rotate which would preclude a skater from having any part of the outside edge on the ice.

 

[antmanb]

Thanks for the Shcherbakova. That's exactly what I've seen. The landing of the Euler, both feet planted on the ice, booth feet user to lift the Salchow. ISU needs to clarify this post Oly's.

Is that what you see in that clip? I've watched it over and over on 0.25 speed and see she clearly lands the Euler on one foot with the free leg extended back. The salchow jump is coming completely from the skating leg, she brings the free leg in and through in a more straightline arc than round, the blade of the free foot might scrape the ice briefly coming through but there is no weight transfer onto the blade. From the angle it's hard to tell but it doesn't seem that there is any ice sprayed up which would indicate there is any significant weight on the free foot.

 

[On My Own]

Do you have an example of this, because it makes no sense to me from a jump technique point of view.

I think it was in the junior levels of Russian women I'd seen someone do this (last season). It looked like a loop to me and a friend, but it turned out to be a salchow. I don't think I've had such a confusion with senior skaters.

Maybe it was Samodelkina we were talking about in one of her worse attempts at this jump: https://youtu.be/bbn4Wtutdy8?t=18

 

[antmanb]

I think it was in the junior levels of Russian women I'd seen someone do this (last season). It looked like a loop to me and a friend, but it turned out to be a salchow. I don't think I've had such a confusion with senior skaters.

Maybe it was Samodelkina we were talking about in one of her worse attempts at this jump: https://youtu.be/bbn4Wtutdy8?t=18

That doesn't look like a loop to me at all - the free leg comes next to and through - it's very similar to Scherbakova's salchow - I don't watch the juniors - is this a Tutberdize skater too?

 

[On My Own]

Is that what you see in that clip? I've watched it over and over on 0.25 speed and see she clearly lands the Euler on one foot with the free leg extended back. The salchow jump is coming completely from the skating leg, she brings the free leg in and through in a more straightline arc than round, the blade of the free foot might scrape the ice briefly coming through but there is no weight transfer onto the blade. From the angle it's hard to tell but it doesn't seem that there is any ice sprayed up which would indicate there is any significant weight on the free foot.

Shcherbakova's Salchow is very confusing to me - I agree most of the power comes from the left leg/skating leg. But sometimes it does look like some of the power is coming from the right leg/free leg on the ice. https://youtu.be/uGCgJlDbZ4M?t=181 This is earlier from her career, so not a direct comparison anymore. I do think there's no significant weight transfer onto her right skate.

That doesn't look like a loop to me at all - the free leg comes next to and through - it's very similar to Scherbakova's salchow - I don't watch the juniors - is this a Tutberdize skater too?

No, she's from some other camp. I agree that one wasn't that bad. Probably it was someone else, or it was one of her worse attempts.

 

[antmanb]

Shcherbakova's Salchow is very confusing to me - I agree most of the power comes from the left leg/skating leg. But sometimes it does look like some of the power is coming from the right leg/free leg on the ice. https://youtu.be/uGCgJlDbZ4M?t=181 This is earlier from her career, so not a direct comparison anymore. I do think there's no significant weight transfer onto her right skate.

Yes i see what you mean more on that clip - to me it looks like she's slower driving the free leg through, the timing of the jump is much slower than it is now - there is almost a pause once the free leg is past the skating leg while she aligns her body correctly and gets the weight on the right part of the skating blade and strongly checks to take off and execute the jump.

Looking at her skating now - everything about the timing has gotten better/faster and there is a much smaller pause to check the take off.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

I promise to let the 3Lo3S go. Here is the best example I could find. Ashley got a 12.2 for this, the highest element score of any lady in the 2016 Worlds.

https://youtu.be/4h8Tv5wY_9o?t=157

She does the Euler and lifts up immediately for the 3S. The free leg may touch the ice but surely there is no weight it. In the examples posted earlier both feet are on the ice. People say there is no snow and no weight on the foot. But, can you really tell? Surely, the more the second foot is involved the easier the combination.

In a 3-3 toe jump a 3 turn eases the setup of the second jump and is a deduction. I think these 3Lo3S's with a lot of "second foot" involved makes the jump easier and should likewise be dinged.

 

[MacMadame]

In the examples posted earlier both feet are on the ice. People say there is no snow and no weight on the foot. But, can you really tell?

Yes because if there were weight on the foot the way you say there is, it would throw off the jump.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

Yes, this one! Ugly for sure, and confusing as to where the line is between the toe loop and the salchow. Some blur the line even further and make it look like a loop by putting excessive weight on the RBO (... and then have that loop-like technique for the lutz and flip, too, lol, basically doing 4 loops and one toe loop and... one salchow that they call an axel).

Toeloop - RBO
Salchow - LFI

There is no blurring of the line here. Different feet and edges for takeoff.

 

[On My Own]

Toeloop - RBO
Salchow - LFI


There is no blurring of the line here. Different feet and edges for takeoff.

But as @bladesofgorey mentioned, there are some salchow techniques that do look like toe loops. Of course, they're not really toe loops. But they look like it nonetheless.

And yeah, I'm aware of the take off edges for the jumps

 

[bladesofgorey]

I can't see the video here, but the description for this tutorial outlines some of the various techniques we are discussing:

Salchow (Jeremy Allen)

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