ISU Congress 2021

[Orm Irian]

I call public bathrooms this way: men's room + ladies' room. Do you know anyone who refers to a public bathroom as the "women's room?"

Most people call them the women's toilets where I come from.

'Ladies' puts the focus on behaviour, class and competitors' degree of conformity to stereotypical notions of genteel femininity. 'Women' puts the focus on category of competitor. Canada got it right when they made exactly this change some years ago and it's about time the ISU caught up.

Using 'women' and 'men' for seniors and 'girls' and 'boys' for juniors and all divisions below juniors also creates a subliminal expectation in the public mind that competitors at senior level will be adults, which can only be a good thing.

 

[hanca]

I call public bathrooms this way: men's room + ladies' room. Do you know anyone who refers to a public bathroom as the "women's room?"

There are dozens, if not hundreds of stand-up comedians and linguists who have discussed the usage of "ladies" vs "women." I feel sexual connotations with the word "woman." When I hear the word "woman" my mind goes immediately to her child-bearing potential.

I have to admit, I have heard so many times men saying the word ‘woman’ with such a tone that it has much more sexist connotations than the word ‘lady’. If a female driver does something not very sensible while driving a car, a male observer would shake his head and say ‘woman’. If a female behaves anyhow emotionally in public and makes males uncomfortable, you would see them shrug the shoulders and say ‘women…’. So the word women, in certain circumstances, is used in this country like an explanation for behaving emotionally or doing stupid things. (Interestingly, I have never encountered the same use of the word in my country of origin. I was wondering whether this is something specific for the UK, or whether it is connected with English language).

 

[Lemonade20]

I have to admit, I have heard so many times men saying the word ‘woman’ with such a tone that it has much more sexist connotations than the word ‘lady’. If a female driver does something not very sensible while driving a car, a male observer would shake his head and say ‘woman’. If a female behaves anyhow emotionally in public and makes males uncomfortable, you would see them shrug the shoulders and say ‘women…’. So the word women, in certain circumstances, is used in this country like an explanation for behaving emotionally or doing stupid things. (Interestingly, I have never encountered the same use of the word in my country of origin. I was wondering whether this is something specific for the UK, or whether it is connected with English language).

I agree, but feel like it's more a culture thing. A lady is considered someone you look up to and respect, and a woman is merely the opposite of men and often treated as the lesser of the two sexes. It doesn't matter if the washroom is called women's or ladies. I still don't understand how ladies is considered offensive when men have been using "women" in even more offensive ways.

 

[Aussie Willy]

I agree, but feel like it's more a culture thing. A lady is considered someone you look up to and respect, and a woman is merely the opposite of men and often treated as the lesser of the two sexes. It doesn't matter if the washroom is called women's or ladies. I still don't understand how ladies is considered offensive when men have been using "women" in even more offensive ways.

I don't think anyone finds the word "lady" offensive. They might find it outdated or feel uncomfortable being called it.

I hate being called Miss and have done since I was 18 because of the little girl connotation. But don't call me Mrs because I am not married. Ms is my choice of title.

 

[taz'smum]

Out of curiosity, how do you address people who don't identify with either gender?

 

[mattiecat13]

I hate being called Miss and have done since I was 18 because of the little girl connotation. But don't call me Mrs because I am not married. Ms is my choice of title.

I am married and I still prefer Ms. I also didn’t change my last name to my husband’s. Speaking of which, is that just an American tradition or is a woman adopting her husband's last name common in other countries?

 

[starrynight]

Using 'women' and 'men' for seniors and 'girls' and 'boys' for juniors and all divisions below juniors also creates a subliminal expectation in the public mind that competitors at senior level will be adults, which can only be a good thing.

Are they changing the juniors to 'girls' and 'boys'?

 

[Primorskaya]

In France "Mademoiselle" thankfully disappeared from official documents a few years ago. It was pretty much only used to address young women anyway, the marital status thing died out -along with most of the old ladies who insisted on being called "Mademoiselle" and delighted in it. It nicely coincided with the moment people started calling me "Madame" rather than "Mademoiselle" anyway
It didn't stop the guy at the vegetables stall at my mum's local market to call every woman Mademoiselle, which always gets a laugh.
And there as well as in Germany, where I live now, most married women have taken their husband's name. But many of my married friends chose not to, and I wouldn't either if I did get married. So it's maybe also on the way out.

 

[screech]

I use "Ms" when filling out forms, but my students all call me "Miss". Actually, most elementary aged students tend to call their female teachers "Miss" irregardless of their teacher's marital status.

Personally for skating, I prefer the term "ladies" as "woman" is generally considered the term used for an adult (by age) female. Since so many of the skaters are not yet of adult age, to me "ladies" is more appropriate.

Also, I looked up 'lady' vs 'woman' and saw this, which made me chuckle "a lady is a woman, but not all women are ladies"

 

[Kateri]

Out of curiosity, how do you address people who don't identify with either gender?

It varies, so you just ask them what they prefer.

 

[euterpe]

I am married and I still prefer Ms. I also didn’t change my last name to my husband’s. Speaking of which, is that just an American tradition or is a woman adopting her husband's last name common in other countries?

I took my husband's name because I didn't much like my maiden name. I have been a widow for 13 years and prefer Ms.

 

[Aussie Willy]

I am married and I still prefer Ms. I also didn’t change my last name to my husband’s. Speaking of which, is that just an American tradition or is a woman adopting her husband's last name common in other countries?

Happens elsewhere. Individual choice.

 

[MacMadame]

I am married and I still prefer Ms. I also didn’t change my last name to my husband’s. Speaking of which, is that just an American tradition or is a woman adopting her husband's last name common in other countries?

Not all countries had a tradition of the woman adopting her husband's name to begin with. It's not common in China for example.

Personally for skating, I prefer the term "ladies" as "woman" is generally considered the term used for an adult (by age) female. Since so many of the skaters are not yet of adult age, to me "ladies" is more appropriate.

A lady is a type of woman. So this reasoning is flawed.

 

[alexikeguchi]

Out of curiosity, how do you address people who don't identify with either gender?

I found this quote in a New York Times article today:

"That is what Crista San Martin found when they left their job out of health concerns at a dog boarding facility in Cypress, Texas, which reinstated its work search requirement in November.

Mx. San Martin, 27, who uses the pronouns they and them..."

 

[RoseRed]

It just seems really obvious to me that if it's men not gentlemen, then it should be women not ladies. Just like it is for the majority of other sports.

And the argument about age seems kind of silly. If it's fine for a 15-16 year old boy to compete in the men's event, then why is it weird for a 15-16 year old girl to compete in the women's? Sure there are more teenagers in senior women vs senior men, but it's not like there aren't any in the men's event. And women doesn't feel any more adult than ladies to me so it's not even different for that.

 

[Japanfan]

I am married and I still prefer Ms. I also didn’t change my last name to my husband’s. Speaking of which, is that just an American tradition or is a woman adopting her husband's last name common in other countries?

Not all countries had a tradition of the woman adopting her husband's name to begin with. It's not common in China for example.

In my view, a woman taking her husband's name indicates that they become a team, and that by extension includes the children the two may have.

I think that when a women does not adopt her husband's name, it diminishes her according to the status quo. I'll note that I did not change my name when I got married, which I did twice. I never wanted to be Mrs. anyone. In the west, a wife taking her husband name's hasn't been status quo, although I suppose the majority of brides do.

If I'd taken my first husband's name, I would have been Mrs. Mihalakpoulos (he was greed). Somehow the idea did not appeal to. But I wasn't really into the marriage to begin with - long story.

 

[MacMadame]

In my view, a woman taking her husband's name indicates that they become a team, and that by extension includes the children the two may have.

In my view, that is the justification given for a patriarchal tradition but it doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

If the new couple wants to actually reflect that they are a team via their last names, they should take on a new name that didn't belong to either of them before. One person taking on the last name of the other person is not how teams work. That's how ownership works. So the symbolic nature of it is that the woman subsumes herself to the man. That's why it started and that's the history of it -- the woman at one time became the man's literal property.

ETA there is no reason they have to change anyone's name. You can be a team no matter what your last names are and you can change your last names and not be a team. It's symbolic, not reality.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Happens elsewhere. Individual choice.

Not true that you can just choose and have it be considered your legal anywhere. In Quebec, for example, since 1981:

Under the Civil Code of Québec, both spouses retain their respective names in marriage and exercise civil rights under those names. Consequently, if a married woman wants to adopt her spouse's surname, the Directeur de l'état civil will authorize that change of name only in an exceptional situation.

Change of name

You can apply to the Directeur de l'état civil for a change of given name or surname, on certain conditions.

www.etatcivil.gouv.qc.ca

Of course people can choose to call themselves whatever they like in social situations, and they can hope that people will conform.

 

[Aussie Willy]

Not true that you can just choose and have it be considered your legal anywhere. In Quebec, for example, since 1981:

Someone asked if it only happened in the US and my response to was to say that it does happen elsewhere. I wasn't specific about where.

 

[Lemonade20]

Choosing to take your spouse's last name is a personal decision. It doesn't mean you're giving up who you are, just starting a new chapter in your life. Some couples keep their names for professional reasons. Others for family names, like Kurt Browning's kids. Their middle name is his last name.

 

[skylark]

In the USA, the differentiation between "women" and "ladies" has an unfortunate historical meaning. In the Jim Crow/racially segregated South, "women" referred to African American females and "ladies" referred to white females. But since that pre-dated me, I always responded well to being called a lady. I think when addressing a class or children or actually any group, addressing them as ladies and gentlemen tends to raise the expectation of their behavior. It's purely semantic and cultural, but there you go.

In the World War II generation (by that I mean women and men who were young-ish adults during WWII), it was common in corporate America to call the males "men" and the females "girls." It began to be associated also with a division between the bosses and the secretaries. So, by the 1960s, many Baby Boomer women made a point of wanting to be called by the adult, more equal term of "women."

It really was a generational divide in the USA. Some older women argued that they liked being called girls, collectively or individually, and considered it a compliment.

 

[Japanfan]

In my view, that is the justification given for a patriarchal tradition but it doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

If the new couple wants to actually reflect that they are a team via their last names, they should take on a new name that didn't belong to either of them before. One person taking on the last name of the other person is not how teams work. That's how ownership works. So the symbolic nature of it is that the woman subsumes herself to the man. That's why it started and that's the history of it -- the woman at one time became the man's literal property.

ETA there is no reason they have to change anyone's name. You can be a team no matter what your last names are and you can change your last names and not be a team. It's symbolic, not reality.

I actually totally agree with you. I've thought of couples taking a new name together, actually.

Another tradition that really bothers me is fathers walking daughters down the aisle to 'give' them away. IMO the practice is based in women being property, to be 'given' from one man to another, which seriously undermines a woman's autonomy/agency. But it still goes on today, because: tradition.

 

[clairecloutier]

I think that when a women does not adopt her husband's name, it diminishes her according to the status quo.

Off topic, but I haven’t seen evidence of this assertion in current day-to-day life. I took my first husband’s name, later returned to my birth name, and did not take my second husband’s name. Have never noticed any significant difference in how I’m treated or regarded in either case. Granted, I do live in an area where this practice is fairly common. 40 years ago, it might have raised some eyebrows.

 

[Coco]

To have and to hold sounds really romantic, so you can imagine my surprise when I started working in real estate and saw that phrase in a bunch of property contracts.

 

[euterpe]

Off topic, but I haven’t seen evidence of this assertion in current day-to-day life. I took my first husband’s name, later returned to my birth name, and did not take my second husband’s name. Have never noticed any significant difference in how I’m treated or regarded in either case. Granted, I do live in an area where this practice is fairly common. 40 years ago, it might have raised some eyebrows.

My daughter did the same thing. She took her first husband's name, but after the divorce, she didn't take her 2nd husband's name. Their children (by #2) have his last name.

 

[thvu]

Another tradition that really bothers me is fathers walking daughters down the aisle to 'give' them away. IMO the practice is based in women being property, to be 'given' from one man to another, which seriously undermines a woman's autonomy/agency. But it still goes on today, because: tradition.

Or having to ask a fathers “permission” to marry his daughter. A coworker of mine said she expected any future fiancé to do this, so I asked her “do you consider yourself your father’s property?”

 

[MacMadame]

My daughter did the same thing. She took her first husband's name, but after the divorce, she didn't take her 2nd husband's name. Their children (by #2) have his last name.

My mother took her first husband's name, didn't revert back when they got divorced, and married a second man who came from a culture where women don't get their husband's name when married. So she still has her first husband's last name.

 

[Marta24]

There is a proposal of introducing an European Junior Figure Skating Championship and Four Continents Junior Figure Skating Championship. Is there any chance of this getting approved?

 

[euterpe]

When she divorced #1, my daughter reverted to her maiden name, and kept it when she remarried. One reason was that both husbands had horrible last names.

 

[screech]

I actually totally agree with you. I've thought of couples taking a new name together, actually.

Another tradition that really bothers me is fathers walking daughters down the aisle to 'give' them away. IMO the practice is based in women being property, to be 'given' from one man to another, which seriously undermines a woman's autonomy/agency. But it still goes on today, because: tradition.

One of my best friends completely flipped both marriage traditions - her mother walked her half way down the aisle (she walked the rest of the way alone). Also, she kept her maiden name, and her child is being raised with her last name (she and her husband chose to do so, as her name is easier to spell and pronounce, and they both prefer her last name).