Skaters report abusive training environments

[Elka]

Did the coach actually tell a skater it would be easier if they killed themselves?

Yes, as "a joke".

 

[nimi]

Did the coach actually tell a skater it would be easier if they killed themselves? Or was she telling one coach that it would be easier to kill another skater (easier than what? easier than getting them to improve?)?

Yes, she actually said "Maybe it would be easier if you killed yourself". She also messaged another skater "I'm gonna kill that [skater X] soon."
"Colorful language" indeed.

According to the IS article, the leaked report observes that the people who defended Penttinen read their statements from their notes, using near-identical language. Some of them couldn't elaborate and answer further questions.

ETA: Most of today's TV/media coverage has been about the coronavirus (the Finnish government told today that events of over 500 people are to be cancelled until the end of May), but a satirical TV program just did an extended bit about Penttinen, including a dramatical reading of some the messages she sent. So, I don't think the virus is able to kill this news story anytime soon.

 

[MacMadame]

Yes, as "a joke".

That alone is enough to ban her for life IMO.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I read all the details i could find. All i got to say is: was Mirjami Penttinen raised in a pigsty? Such fowl language used on regular basis (not just once in a while) and created a low-life atmosphere......for all present... not just the one she was yelling at.. "ugly bitch" has no place next to beautiful music and elegant moves. She should have been dismissed long time ago....... She is not exactly an eye candy herself...... looks drabby and unrefined...

https://www.easyfairs.com/fileadmin/_processed_/csm_Mirjami-Penttinen_BW_WEB_e6417f9737.png

https://is.mediadelivery.fi/img/468/5a392dc7ec7f4056938412614ed84774.jpg

 

[hanca]

That alone is enough to ban her for life IMO.

I don’t think it is right to make such statements without actually knowing the context and the cultural expressions. I have said quite a few times ‘oh my God, my parents will kill me’ and yet my parents were never abusive and never really did anything that would make me think that my life is in danger. ‘He/she will kill me!’ can be dramatic expression indicating that the person won’t be particularly happy about something.

 

[Finnice]

Well somebody who does have access to the confidential report has now leaked it to the press...

Salattu raportti paljastaa: Mirjami Penttinen haukkui luistelijan ”kusiseksi lahnaksi” – piti tutkintaa ”kiusaamiskampanjana”

Ilta-Sanomat sai haltuunsa Suomen taitoluisteluliiton kurinpitolautakunnan salatun päätöksen Mirjami Penttisen tapauksesta.

www.is.fi

I just hope that the abused do get help and this publicity does not hurt them even more.
It is very important to clear our sport from this kind of behavior, but at the same time it is so hard for the abused to hear all this belittling of the this that have happened.

 

[Finnice]

I don’t think it is right to make such statements without actually knowing the context and the cultural expressions. I have said quite a few times ‘oh my God, my parents will kill me’ and yet my parents were never abusive and never really did anything that would make me think that my life is in danger. ‘He/she will kill me!’ can be dramatic expression indicating that the person won’t be particularly happy about something.

I am afraid there is no such excuse here, even though in general you might be right. I do not think she actually meant to kill somebody, but knowing the context, this all is very abusive and threatening.

 

[MacMadame]

‘He/she will kill me!’ can be dramatic expression indicating that the person won’t be particularly happy about something.

I think there's a big difference between saying someone is going to kill you and telling another person that they should kill themselves.

You should NEVER tell another person to kill themselves even as a joke because you don't know where they are in their mental health and how they are going to take it. What if it's the last straw for that person and they go home and actually do kill themselves?

It's okay to joke about yourself. You know your own headspace. But you need to be careful with other people's headspace. And this is especially true if you have power of that person.

 

[Aceon6]

And this is especially true if you have power of that person.

Yes, using power to intimidate someone is bullying, plain and simple. If someone is so scared of the bully that they dread interactions, something needs to be done.

 

[Bellanca]

Doesn't surprise me at all - seems pretty common in the sport from what little I've personally witnessed. I am so sorry for what they are going through.

Sadly, it is. It is common in many sports. Look no further than USA gymnastics...

Also, weight abuse or any form of abuse is as common and predictable as the sun rising in the morning. Completely unacceptable. The problem is, too many people are willing to turn the other cheek. Rather than hold those responsible and accountable, they instead choose to ignore, address, or fix the problem. They make excuses, they provide lip service - they ARE part of the problem. In communist/dictatorial countries, it is nearly impossible to correct if you value your life.

 

[nimi]

Artistic Skaters posted this article in another thread but it's relevant also here: "As Telegraph Women’s Sport found through our own investigation, allegations of abuse hang over British ice skating, too. They just have not made national headlines in the sports pages before."

MeToo trailblazers expose abuse crisis engulfing skating: 'He was untouchable and I was in awe. I was terrified to speak out'

A top figure skater abused 'Sophie'when she was an under-age girl - her account bears the hallmarks of a sport where abuse was rife

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Primorskaya]

On the subject of routine, institutional abuse....
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...ne-blockers-to-become-an-ice-skating-champion

I've never heard of this young lady, and the article is pretty brief, does anyone know more? Really sick anyhow...

 

[Tinami Amori]

On the subject of routine, institutional abuse....
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...ne-blockers-to-become-an-ice-skating-champion

I've never heard of this young lady, and the article is pretty brief, does anyone know more? Really sick anyhow...

Lets start with her last name, the spelling. This could be article's mistype, but there is no Russian family name spelled "Kuprinya", there is "Kuprina". I googled both spellings in English and in Russian, in sports i get only a tennis player for "Kuprina" and nothing for "Kuprinya" (this spelling is phonetically not even usable in russian). I also tried adding an "a" "Kuprinaya" because that way it is at least a bit phonetically possible, but google diverts me to "Kuprina". It is like adding "y" to family name "Cooper"... google it and it does not come up - "Coopeyr".

Second: She says "in 2004 when I was 10, I won the Moscow Championships"...

• There are/were no Moscow competitions called exactly "Moscow Championships"... There are "Cups of Moscow xxxx", "Prize of Moscow xxxx", etc... Moscow local events usually "in the name of some famous skater or coach" - Chaikovskaya Prize, Tarasova Cup, Boutirskaya Prize, etc...
• I checked whatever records i could access for 2004 as far as Moscow local competitions and there is no such family name or close in spelling, or even first name, or in looks.
• She could have possibly won at some Moscow's rink at a "rink event", but that is no big deal at all, and such event would not be called "Championships" as a norm.
• She said she was 10 - that's novice..... novice events... and yet she says this "and I was a candidate to become a “master of sport” – a Russian title for international champions who have made valuable contributions to sport."
• No! that's not how it works! while one can be "CMS" (a candidate for a master of sport) at age of 10, it has nothing to do with Int'l issues...... (too much to explain, for example it is "International Master of Sports" that deals with int'l level)...

The girl sounds like trying to get fame and she knows somethings about Russian system, but not enough...

 

[morqet]

The Russian Dolls have transformed figure skating. But at what cost?

Critics say Russia’s teenage troika of Kostornaia, Shcherbakova and Trusovahave have turned figure skating into a jumping competition

www.theguardian.com

Interesting, balanced article, with lots of comments from Kiira Korpi on long term wellbeing:

“I know many athletes who are emotionally and physically broken because the system doesn’t care how much goes to waste as long as there are a few who make it. But what’s worrying is that those who make it are only there for a few years and then they’re broken too: they’re ‘too old’ or can’t sustain their careers.”

 

[Tinami Amori]

The Russian Dolls have transformed figure skating. But at what cost?

Critics say Russia’s teenage troika of Kostornaia, Shcherbakova and Trusovahave have turned figure skating into a jumping competition

www.theguardian.com

Interesting, balanced article, with lots of comments from Kiira Korpi on long term wellbeing:

With all the success of Russian ladies, there will always be people who'll try to bring them down... and look for "problems", or twist what's not a problem into a problem with a negative twist...

 

[ninjapirate]

The Russian Dolls have transformed figure skating. But at what cost?

Critics say Russia’s teenage troika of Kostornaia, Shcherbakova and Trusovahave have turned figure skating into a jumping competition

www.theguardian.com

Interesting, balanced article, with lots of comments from Kiira Korpi on long term wellbeing:

The article was one sided nagging... which would have been perfectly fine if they spent a second half weighing different solutions. The implied solution is to just raise the age which I think is the cheap and myopic solution though raising it to 16 would be ok. Oh, or the "properly judge PCS" pipe dream.

I would prefer either 1) there being a couple different rulesets with at least one working better for a broader set of bodytypes(focusing on jump height and maybe speed in-out of jumps could be part of it... flat out limiting jump tech could be part of it... there's a lot that could be done) 2) create special "medal winners" competitions for former top skaters.(they would probably have to be at GPF and Worlds at first to gain traction) 3) or both together with special medal winner competitions with a different ruleset

I do think it's crazy that the ISU after helping(it was always going to decline from where it was) to kill off pro skating they never properly replaced the function that pro skating provided.

Rarely does someone like Dana White of the UFC or Vince McMahon of the WWE build up a name for them to thrown out out quickly? And even if they did, those people would have other venues keep going.

 

[muffinplus]

The Russian Dolls have transformed figure skating. But at what cost?

Critics say Russia’s teenage troika of Kostornaia, Shcherbakova and Trusovahave have turned figure skating into a jumping competition

www.theguardian.com

Interesting, balanced article, with lots of comments from Kiira Korpi on long term wellbeing:

There is literally nothing balanced about this article.

 

[overedge]

@ninjapirate WWE is actually a very good parallel. Professional wrestling is built on a hierarchy of who's "in" and who isn't. If you're a wrestler and you want to succeed in WWE, you do exactly what you're told, even if it's dangerous - there are tons of stories about WWE wrestlers competing even when they knew they were hurt, or when they knew that they might hurt other wrestlers because they couldn't do moves safely. They do it because if they say "no", they get a reputation as being troublemakers, and they might never get the opportunity for that kind of match again.

And if they do become seriously injured and they can't perform regularly, they're usually fired. WWE hires its talent as "independent contractors" not as employees, so it's very easy for them to let people go whenever they feel like it.

The main reason that WWE is able to keep going is that there's an endless supply of wannabe wrestlers with stars in their eyes, who aren't going to complain if they're being treated abusively or unsafely. Sound familiar?

 

[Tinami Amori]

Ugh, Korpi is such a drama queen.

Calling someone's (successful) school a child factory is borderline offensive.

"People miss watching emotionally mature women skate instead of girls. " - what is she talking about??? Kostornaia skates very maturely. Shcherbakova is very musical (who cares about her age?). Korpi is just stuck on her agenda

she is trying to be popular and a populist with "north-am/western crowd of certain lean and few russians who are so pissed of at local politics that they support everything western out of spite"... and what is more popular than to call yourself some kind of "issue/justice warrior" especially if it is against Russia in the areas where they are winning and have success.

 

[Enchanted]

Andrea Dohany has been accused of severe mental abuse by her former students. She was the founder and coach of Team Surprise.

Article in Swedish.

 

[Bellanca]

Those intending to coach must be scrutinized for mental and emotional stability (or lack thereof, i.e., personality disorders) by means of thorough vetting and firsthand investigation by anyone considering employing them. As it has become painfully obvious that many have very serious problems coupled with dysfunctional behaviors. Also, as we’ve all sadly witnessed, some are just completely off their rockers while others have uncontrollable temperament issues, meaning the last thing they should be doing is coaching children of any age group, period.

What a tragic mess. Abuse should never be allowed to happen... or, God forbid, somehow justified. No way! Parents should not have to fret leaving their children with these people. Change is necessary.

 

[Vagabond]

 

[mjb52]

That picture is at least seven weeks old?

 

[Vagabond]

That picture is at least seven weeks old?

You are right. I must have confused the time of the most recent comment with that of the post itself.

 

[Enchanted]

In Sweden an external investigation reveals major problems in figure skating: a culture of silence and authoritarian leadership. In result, there’s also a crisis inside the federation. The largest district (Stockholm) is demanding the board of the federation to resign.

Source

 

[LarrySK8]

Skaters now must, with help of their support system away from a coach, come up with proper boundaries for them and present this to the coach when deciding to sign a contract with them. Coach must agree.

Non abusive environments must be avoided via more strict contracts between student and coach. Students must place their boundaries and coaches must now accept. World wide.

It is time for everyone, even children training in elite level sports, to place security and protection on their "to do" list while also training and devoting their lives to any sport. It is now a must.

 

[synchrogirl17]

Andrea Dohany has been accused of severe mental abuse by her former students. She was the founder and coach of Team Surprise.

Article in Swedish.

When I skated synchro, we called Dohany “The Dragon Lady” because she is absolutely terrifying. Team Surprise always tried insanely hard elements, which led to a very high rate of injury and ”bad” performances. We often half-joked that if her skaters had a bad skate, they would not all survive her reaction...

 

[starrynight]

Question... why is it that Sweden, Finland etc seem to dominate synchro but aren't known as powerhouse nations for disciplines such as singles, pairs and dance?

Can't say that these draconian training environments are actually translating into broader success outside of synchro? For a discipline that isn't an Olympic sport it's an interesting hill for a Fed to die on.

 

[Willin]

@starrynight For the same reason that certain teams in every sport are perpetually bad and some perpetually good. Success breeds success. Kids want to win, so they go to sports and teams where they'll win. If they get good enough to earn a spot on one of Finland's top 2 teams they're borderline guaranteed a world medal in one of their country's most popular sports. If they get good in singles/dance/pairs in their country, based on recent results, they might make the free skate. So why focus on that?

I would imaging it's at least partially a situation like we have here in California: all the coaches in LA and SF are singles/pairs/dance coaches with maybe 1 synchro coach here and there. So unless you're lucky your coach will get you into singles and you'll stay in singles until you decide otherwise (which may be pairs or dance). That means we have a ton of very good singles skaters and very few synchro skaters - with those synchro skaters often being weaker skaters. While in Finland I'd imagine there's nearly all synchro coaches and very few singles/pairs/dance coaches around to lure in skaters.

Interestingly enough, Sweden no longer has much success post-Team Surprise. I think Boomerang also folded. Their Junior teams have never been too strong either. It's as if all their world class synchro was in one team and now that that team is longer in existence there's no more Swedish synchro scene. I doubt that's true, but it's still very surprising given that there's usually success in more than just one Senior team if that team is a constant medal threat.

 

[synchrogirl17]

@starrynight
Interestingly enough, Sweden no longer has much success post-Team Surprise. I think Boomerang also folded. Their Junior teams have never been too strong either. It's as if all their world class synchro was in one team and now that that team is longer in existence there's no more Swedish synchro scene. I doubt that's true, but it's still very surprising given that there's usually success in more than just one Senior team if that team is a constant medal threat.

Yes, both Team Boomerang and the newer Team Unity disappeared last season. Team Surprise’s club has a new Senior team for next season - Team Inspire - but I imagine they will be a work in progress.