ISU Skating Awards To Debut At 2020 Worlds

[VGThuy]

I think often times, the nature of figure skating competition is what adds to the tackiness. It would be one thing if someone did a Holocaust or other seriously themed skating performance just to bring some sort of awareness or statement. Even if the piece was offensive or tacky or over indulgent to the point where you are painting bloody gashes, at least the artist could attempt to explain his/her/their intentions and why they wanted to challenge sensibilities.

But if you do it in a competition setting and using that cosplay or borderline torture porn/fetishizing to win medals, there is something off about it. Like you are using the tragedy and death of others to gain more credibility and thus points with the judges while also wanting a pat on the back for caring. Also, we all know oftentimes, the skaters themselves are pretty young and sheltered and for the most part comfortable (even the ones that don’t have lots of money because they can still afford to do this sport compared to others who really cannot) people who are conditioned to just do what the coach and choreographers tell them to do so it’s not like this was their message they are expressing.

 

[overedge]

But if you do it in a competition setting and using that cosplay or borderline torture porn/fetishizing to win medals, there is something off about it. Like you are using the tragedy and death of others to gain more credibility and thus points with the judges while also wanting a pat on the back for caring.

This. It's like "if you don't like this program, you're on the wrong side of history".

 

[Aerobicidal]

But I think where the norm issue comes in is that most likely we can safely presume that Shulepov and whoever was involved didn't think/weren't aware it was culturally offensive. That doesn't mean it wasn't, but I don't think it was intended to be. Some posts are trying to make a distinction between a "good" SL program/costume and a "bad" one, but just because that distinction is clear to other people, it doesn't mean it is or was clear to the people involved in Shulepov's program.

I would also like to see less of these programs at all, even from Jewish/Israeli skaters (I am also Jewish) but it's not easy - we only want people to do them when they're good, but the people involved in the bad ones presumably think theirs are good. Perhaps this will seem like a bit of a tangent, but I often think about the Duchesney's Missing programs, which are up there with my favorite programs of all time - but if you drill down and think about it, conceptually it's a bit weird to portray such a serious subject in an ice dance program even when it's done very well.

I agree with all of this, and I think it's important to see a more nuanced discussion than what's capable of happening somewhere like Twitter (which isn't to suggest I disagree with the general response to the ISU there).

I also think that the "good" vs. "bad" categorization can be extended to anything involving representations of the Holocaust--it's all so subjective. For example, I think both Schindler's List and Life Is Beautiful are not great movies (especially the latter), and problematic in various ways. But those arguments (and arguments on other sides, which I respect) have been made ad nauseam so there's no point in rehashing them.

This discussion does make me realize that American standards of what's offensive are pretty fragile. My politics run quite far to the left, but I think some of the outrage over offensiveness and appropriation is misplaced.

 

[VGThuy]

I agree. It’s like what @Zemgirl said, I feel a lot of offense taken on behalf of others don’t necessarily actually speak for the people whose people are being portrayed.

 

[snoopy]

I agree. It’s like what @Zemgirl said, I feel a lot of offense taken on behalf of others don’t necessarily actually speak for the people whose people are being portrayed.

Oh my goodness. I agree.

 

[kwanette]

Seriously. This sounds like some 70-year-old's idea of what is hip and happening with teh kidz.

I'm 70..and trust me..I think it is all BS..

 

[caseyedwards]

I feel like "no concentration camp costumes" is a pretty easy guideline to follow. What's next, a temporary number tattoo for verisimilitude?

(I'm unhappy with the relevant skaters and their teams, not with Michalle, of course)

Why restrict artistry and expression like that? It’s awful

 

[caseyedwards]

There have been many Schindler's List programs.

If you don't get the issue here, I'm not going to explain it to you.

You can’t explain it because it doesn’t make any sense!

 

[aftershocks]

I'd rather skaters stopped using the Holocaust to make a Meaningful Artistic Statement, period.

Eh, it's probably mostly the deeply engaging SL music that has attracted so many skaters to the point where the music has reached the old warhorse category. Obviously, sensitivity to the original subject matter for which the music was composed is required when deciding to tackle SL. ITA that SL is musical subject matter that should not be lightly chosen. But I doubt most skaters are choosing the music in order to make 'a Meaningful Artistic Statement.' Obviously, some skaters are not skilled enough, nor at a stage of their careers to be able to interpret the music properly or treat the subject matter with the required sensitivity. Unfortunately, such requirements are seemingly never thoughtfully considered by most skaters in the first place (for any music selection).

IMO, what got the ball rolling with SL music was the reassessment of Paul Wylie's outstanding pro performance to SL circa 1994, which some years back was posted and discussed on FSU. [I posted it again earlier in this thread]. Subsequent to FSU reviews of Wylie's long ago stellar performance, we began seeing skaters choosing to create programs to SL music. I don't know whether Jonathan Cassar was the first out of the blocks to bring the SL music back to the ice (in 2010 at U.S. Nationals). Perhaps he was the first. Sometime later, Elene Gedevanishvili performed a beautiful sp to SL music (using some parts of the score not often used). Eteri must have noticed.

Then famously at the 2014 Olympics, Eteri showcased her prize pupil, Yulia Lipnitskaya, brilliantly skating to SL on the big stage in the very first Olympics fs Team event. Sadly for Yulia, only one performance of her sp was in her (maybe because she gave it her all and then had nothing left for the singles event ). In any case, even SL film director Steven Spielberg was mesmerized by Yulia Lipnitskaya's rendition. Thus, he sat down and penned her a congratulatory letter. I think the attention Yulia received at those Olympics was overwhelming. It was all downhill for her from there.

ETA: But it set the stage for multiple figure skaters trying their hand at having their own success with SL music. That's seemingly how warhorses become warhorses in figure skating: the music has great creative potential for fs choreography and thus the music eventually achieves legendary status due to a number of skaters performing to it (some with notable success).

 

[aftershocks]

Even if the piece was offensive or tacky or over indulgent to the point where you are painting bloody gashes...

I'm not convinced that the red on Romsky's outfit is necessarily intended to explicitly portray 'bloody gashes.' As I said earlier, the red on the sides of his largely shades of gray costume seem abstract, and could be meant to reference the scene in the movie with the little girl in the red coat. Eteri skillfully used the red-coated little girl allusion for Lipnitskaya's 2014 program and costume.

The next time Romsky is interviewed, he should be asked about the genesis for the design of his costume, and what the red is intended to signify. It doesn't have to be what posters have been suggesting here.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I agree. It’s like what @Zemgirl said, I feel a lot of offense taken on behalf of others don’t necessarily actually speak for the people whose people are being portrayed.

All the jewish immigrants that i know from former USSR, and those on chats and forums who follow skating, are very touched and pleased by ANY "jewish theme" on ice, especially SL and holocaust issues. We may not like the design and geometry of a particular costume, but we like when, especially non-jews are willing to be brave and to put on "a costume that shows the horrors of our jewish history". These skaters become "one of us" or "with us" for those few minutes on ice.

For many Soviet jews to see a Russian (non-jewish) boy, like Anton Shulepov, willing to be a "jew in a camp", not hide the fact that there were uniforms and yellow stars, is very heart warming, people say they cried.

We loved Satoko's Star of David on the back of her costume. Were outraged that she was forced to remove it. This was a "removal of our symbol". Some of us even thought it is ANTI-SEMITIC to force her to hide a Star of David.

We love our symbols bad and good publicly displayed. We had to hide them for centuries in order to survive, even now you can get aggression against you in public, for wearing Star of David, because of issues with Israel.

Even the Russians (non-jews) on the russian chats and forums are not understanding what is wrong when someone portrays a true history with intent to COMMISERATE!! And we jews, agree with the russians.

Shulepov's costume may have a bad design, it's about aesthetics. But we love this Russian boy for willing to be a Jew for a few minutes.

 

[angi]

All the jewish immigrants that i know from former USSR, and those on chats and forums who follow skating, are very touched and pleased by ANY "jewish theme" on ice, especially SL and holocaust issues. We may not like the design and geometry of a particular costume, but we like when, especially non-jews are willing to be brave and to put on "a costume that shows the horrors of our jewish history". These skaters become "one of us" or "with us" for those few minutes on ice.

For many Soviet jews to see a Russian (non-jewish) boy, like Anton Shulepov, willing to be a "jew in a camp", not hide the fact that there were uniforms and yellow stars, is very heart warming, people say they cried.

We loved Satoko's Star of David on the back of her costume. Were outraged that she was forced to remove it. This was a "removal of our symbol". Some of us even thought it is ANTI-SEMITIC to force her to hide a Star of David.

We love our symbols bad and good publicly displayed. We had to hide them for centuries in order to survive, even now you can get aggression against you in public, for wearing Star of David, because of issues with Israel.

Even the Russians (non-jews) on the russian chats and forums are not understanding what is wrong when someone portrays a true history with intent to COMMISERATE!! And we jews, agree with the russians.

Shulepov's costume may have a bad design, it's about aesthetics. But we love this Russian boy for willing to be a Jew for a few minutes.

Congratulations on writing the most tone-deaf comment I've seen on the subject. How touching that "this Russian boy" was "willing to be a jew for a few minutes". I know quite a few Soviet jews as well and can attest that most were horrified by the costume and found it (along with Satako's star of David costume and the other two costumes that have pretend bloody gushes on them) offensive and ignorant.
To quote this very good piece "Genocide is not a fashion statement":

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/a-holocaust-costume-its-just-figure-skatings-latest-use-of-calamity-as-prop/2019/12/03/9f89411e-1611-11ea-9110-3b34ce1d92b1_story.html

 

[snoopy]

Does anyone remember the Chinese prom dress incident? Westerners including Asian westerners, via twitter, were offended that a white girl wore a Chinese dress to her prom. Mainland Chinese, via twitter, thought it was fine and even a nice homage.

We are largely reflecting what we have been taught and there is no one Truth in most of these instances and if you claim that YOU have it, I call bullocks.

 

[starrynight]

I think often times, the nature of figure skating competition is what adds to the tackiness.

Yes. I think that's partly it. It's a very different setting to something like a ballet, where the lights go down, the scene is set and there is more time to add focus onto the message.

Whereas in skating, it's all like 'can he do the quad toe?? noo... he fell!!!' then a whole lot of fist pumping and cheering at the end if it went well and then 'Scores Please'. It just breaks the mood.

And as I said before, you can probably count on one hand the number of skaters who can send a deep artistic message at the same time as skating an elite level program.

But Schindler's List has reached the point where it's like a milestone of artistry - where skaters want to do it to prove a point.

My personal issue is that I watched the film for the first time when I was 16 and it was so upsetting that I honestly think about really regularly even still. And so I don't love it as an option in figure skating. It's just such heavy content.

Perhaps this will seem like a bit of a tangent, but I often think about the Duchesney's Missing programs, which are up there with my favorite programs of all time - but if you drill down and think about it, conceptually it's a bit weird to portray such a serious subject in an ice dance program even when it's done very well.

The ballet Ghost Dances is one of my most favourite ballets ever. (Oh I wish I could find a DVD of it). Duchesnay's program borrowed very heavily from the original choreography. But I think much of the aspects which made Ghost Dances quite confronting wasn't in that program -- namely the Skeleton like White Ghosts appearing at intervals representing death. But I get what you are saying.

But I think that such a heavy program probably suited 90s ice dance better. There was more opportunity for an immersive program without a huge number of athletic elements to distract. The jump jump jump of modern singles isn't as well suited.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Congratulations on writing the most tone-deaf comment I've seen on the subject. How touching that "this Russian boy" was "willing to be a jew for a few minutes". I know quite a few Soviet jews as well and can attest that most were horrified by the costume and found it (along with Satako's star of David costume and the other two costumes that have pretend bloody gushes on them) offensive and ignorant.
To quote this very good piece "Genocide is not a fashion statement":

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/a-holocaust-costume-its-just-figure-skatings-latest-use-of-calamity-as-prop/2019/12/03/9f89411e-1611-11ea-9110-3b34ce1d92b1_story.html

Well, first of all that fact that this costume is "half-Nazi" is dead wrong. Why do people who don't know history are allowed to write articles with "conclusions" that are not historically correct. His half of costume is "civilian" not of a prison guard. There is a museum on the site where SL took place and there are actual costumes of prison guards displayed. The "civilian" part of the costume wither to portray Oskar Schindler (that's what he usual wore, jacket with shirt and tie), or a transformation of a jew, from "civilian to a prisoner".

I don't know what "Russian jews" you know, maybe they are very young and brain-washed by "new western PC standards", and repeat like parrots what is "cool" today.

The issue if this costume is well designed or not, or if it is "vulgar" is a legitimate discussion. But the buzz-word is "offensive", and i am telling you "many russian jews are NOT offended". They may smirk, they may not like the proportions, think it is not executed well.. but not offended.

What many of us, former Soviet jews are offended by, is when "western youngsters" wear openly shirts with Castro, Chez Guevara, Lenin and Marx, Hugo Chavez, and praise these murderous Socialist dictators. But nobody kicks them out of schools or universities, or asking them not to wear it, claiming "freedom of expression".

Eva Peron and her husband were murderers and dictators, during their regime tenth of thousands of people were tortured, killed and went missing. It is a HISTORIC fact! as well as the FACT that Perons were Hitler and Nazi supporters!

Eva Peron (Evita), Hitler, & The Nazis: The Horrifying Truth

In June of 1947, Eva Peron, or as she is known to many, Evita, embarked on a tour of Europe fit for a movie star. The truth behind the tour, however, was much more sinister [...]

newspunch.com

We had a poster on FSU, back in 2000's who clearly spoke how offensive it is to her and to many Argentines, to see "Evita" portrayed as a "romantic hero" in films, theatre AND in skating programmes. But there is not a word about it! Nobody is stopping "Evita" programmes, even when it offends the ACTUAL VICTIMS.

 

[overedge]

We are largely reflecting what we have been taught and there is no one Truth in most of these instances and if you claim that YOU have it, I call bullocks.

Well, you can call bollocks on this if you want, but IMO it's pretty universally accepted that the Holocaust was a terrible event in history, and references to it should be respectful and appropriate.

 

[MacMadame]

I don't know what "Russian jews" you know, maybe they are very young and brain-washed by "new western PC standards", and repeat like parrots what is "cool" today.

Vs. the Russian Jews you know who are very old and brain-washed by the Soviet system and repeat like parrots what was "cool" when they were young?

 

[snoopy]

And how many posts here are debating what is respectful and appropriate? Capital T Truth is hard to nail down.

Well, you can call bollocks on this if you want, but IMO it's pretty universally accepted that the Holocaust was a terrible event in history, and references to it should be respectful and appropriate.

 

[overedge]

@snoopy Yes, there is debate over "respectful" and "appropriate", but IMO that comes out of a common recognition that it was a terrible event.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Does anyone remember the Chinese prom dress incident? Westerners including Asian westerners, via twitter, were offended that a white girl wore a Chinese dress to her prom. Mainland Chinese, via twitter, thought it was fine and even a nice homage.

And should not it be "the mainland chinese" who get to decide if a chinese dress is offensive?

This does not just ends with SL, or the chinese dress....

• Medvedeva was critiqued for "Japanese Kimono" as "cultural appropriation" - until the Japanese dress designer chimed in and explained it is correct.
• Medvedeva was critiqued for "9/11" programme, when Averbuch's (he is a jew) intent was to commiserate with the Americans and to show "we're with you/one of you/we felt the pain and want to show it".
• Kihira was critiqued for "cultural appropriation" of her Middle-Eastern programmes this year, many "PC kids" were thrown off by the word "Baghdad" and linking it to "how can you dance to a breakfast in a war-torn, bombed city". But the middle-easterners, who watched her programmes LOVED IT!
• Sinitsina, who skates her FS to the music and character of Tibetan Deity, Dakini, was attacked for "offense to the Indian rituals and religion" and "cultural appropriation" by "some dumb youngsters" who don't know the effing difference between Tibet/Nepal and India......!!!!! Yet the Indian immigrants who saw the programme loved it, and did not think it was "that Indian".

Some people are using these issues to show "how progressive they are" and do a cheap-trick "civil duty" for standing up for the "rights of the oppressed"...... But the "oppressed" have no idea what the "feck" they are talking about, other than trying to "show off"..

 

[Tinami Amori]

Vs. the Russian Jews you know who are very old and brain-washed by the Soviet system and repeat like parrots what was "cool" when they were young?

Does not baud well, when "those you mention" not only objected to the "Soviet System", but since then lived for 30+ or 40+ years surrounded by "new western" propaganda..

... and besides, there is a basic fact, that it is "that group of jews" whose families suffered the most during WWII, we have the final word on what's "offensive" in this silly attempt "to protect our feelings"....

 

[overedge]

Some people are using these issues to show "how progressive they are" and do a cheap-trick "civil duty" for standing up for the "rights of the oppressed"...... But the "oppressed" have no idea what the "feck" they are talking about, other than trying to "show off"..

Somebody needs to "feck" off, and it's not those people.

 

[Sylvia]

Free speech!

 

[VGThuy]

Regarding mainland Chinese, we have to understand Asian-Americans have a totally different history with westerners and how we were treated and portrayed here that many native Asians may not understand or have been exposed to.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Well this is a fine mess!

Although, it does seem there's been a bit of a mistake in describing Anton as wearing half a Nazi guard uniform when it is in fact a reference to Oscar Schindler. This doesn't make the costume OK, but it as it stands people are probably thinking Anton is a Nazi sympathiser which I think is unfair.

Someone on Golden Skate mentioned that the program would be a whole lot better if Anton just wore the suit part, which I agree with. Hopefully, he and his team takes that on board before he ends up being "That Nazi cosplay skater" although it's probably too late for that.

 

[aftershocks]

It's just such heavy content.

The music is not heavy, even if the subject matter is...

 

[Aerobicidal]

If people want to complain about non-Schindler's List cultural appropriation in skating this year, there's likely no better place to start than with the song and dance "Vogue." As many of us know, Madonna appropriated vogueing from black drag queens in New York City, making millions of dollars. Paris Is Burning tells the rest better than I could do, although I should add that that documentary was also considered appropriation by many in the community.

The only other thing I have to say--more on topic as well--is that I am still extremely amused that Samarin is nominated for Most Entertaining Program. But maybe that proves my evil lefty U.S. biases.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Regarding mainland Chinese, we have to understand Asian-Americans have a totally different history with westerners and how we were treated and portrayed here that many native Asians may not understand or have been exposed to.

I respect that point, and the fact that history was different. But to what extent? The asian-western community for a long time was treated as 2nd-class citizens, but for a period of time so were the native populations in their own land by the colonizing Europeans. Both have a history of being "oppressed" by the "westerners".

It's how you look at someone who is not "of your origin" wearing or using your "cultural elements", you can see it as "theft of yours" or "a put down of yours", or you can see it as "appreciation of yours". To me, "theft" and "put-down" are quite obvious, and "appreciation/homage" is obvious as well (even if it is done clumsily).

 

[alchemy void]

And... now it's on TMZ:

FIGURE SKATER ANTON SHULEPOV RIPPED FOR HOLOCAUST COSTUME ... 'Insensitive, Offensive'

I just had to click the comments. Holy shit. Definitely the most degenerate comments section I've ever seen, and that's saying something.

The problem here isn't necessarily Shulepov's costume, it's that the ISU nominated it for costume of the year.

 

[VGThuy]

I respect that point, and the fact that history was different. But to what extent? The asian-western community for a long time was treated as 2nd-class citizens, but for a period of time so were the native populations in their own land by the colonizing Europeans. Both have a history of being "oppressed" by the "westerners".

It's how you look at someone who is not "of your origin" wearing or using your "cultural elements", you can see it as "theft of yours" or "a put down of yours", or you can see it as "appreciation of yours". To me, "theft" and "put-down" are quite obvious, and "appreciation/homage" is obvious as well (even if it is done clumsily).

That’s why it’s important to let people in the community have that discussion and decide that for themselves. Outsiders chiming in seem to do so in order to just express frustration with other people’s voices and wanting to butt in and condescendingly explain in way to further talk down and lecture people who are well aware of how their position is seen through that lecturer’s eyes.