Madonna - Is it the end?

[antmanb]

I saw Madonna live on her Reinvention Tour and I genuinely was very surprised at just how good her vocals were on that tour, but she did have a good few years post Evita where she actually got proper vocal coaching.

I had friends and diehard Madonna fans that walked out of the Sticky and Sweet Tour because not only were her vocals utter rubbish but the sound people never got it right for the whole of the UK tour and where they were they said they couldn't hear enough to bother staying, and what they could hear was bad.

The Confessions tour, apparently, were some of her worst vocals. But I think she now uses a lot more pre-recorded tracks that she sings over so I didn't hear the same complaints from friends about the Rebel Heart tour.

She's never been the strongest singer, but has always been about the show and the performance, and nowadays she really doesn't spend enough time working on her vocals to risk live vocals somewhere like Eurovision with so many people watching, and i'm sad to say she just can't move like she used to.

If she's all about empowerment for older women, then why doesn't she hire dancers (male and female) her own age to perform with? She still hires the 20 year old dancers, and she could still keep up with them until the last few years, and now it just highlights her own shortcomings.

 

[Miezekatze]

Well I think she might be able to move just fine, if she stopped wearing those melodramatic costumes that look as if they weigh 200 kilograms

But I really don't think she moves that badly, in comparison to others like Taylor or Gaga (who is hindered by the combination of having ruined hips and always wearing extreme high heels anyway).

It would be quite nice if her career was ruined enough for me to get selected in the current ticket lottery for London or Paris , since I'm in none of the 2 privileged fan groups that get tickets first

 

[genevieve]

Someone - Jenny? - posted a few years ago that Madonna got a lot of flack from fans for using pre-recorded tracks on one tour, then was lambasted for singing live on the next, saying M could not win. I think the problem is that Madonna has built a career on ever-more-elaborate, physically complicated shows. I think the only singer who can do a credible live stage show like that is Beyonce - and even she probably uses track sometimes.

I saw the Future vieo first, and other than the massive auto-tune (so mid-2000s!! ) didn't think it was a big deal. But then a saw a fan-recorded (not 'corrected') video of Like a Prayer and saw what y'all are talking about. It was bad, and ridiculous to put herself in that position for a platform such as Eurovision, but definitely not the worst performance out there. The bar has gotten really, really low

Has anyone seen Taylor Swift perform live? Her voice is worse than this every damned time. She is a recording artist, NOT a singer. I'm kind of impressed that she seems to sing live all the time anyway - but damn.

 

[Simone411]

She's a year older than me, so it was confusing for me to see her face compared to mine, though the neck never lies!

She is one month older than me. She was born in August, 1958. The day I saw her on Live with Kelly and Ryan, I nearly fainted. I know with age that we all change to some extent. I have a few more wrinkles, etc. I also believe it depends on the kind of life you lead. A lot of factors can contribute to how fast you age.

In this case, I believe Madonna looks older than me. Sharing this in case some didn't see her on the show which aired 12/8/2018.

Madonna Complete Interview with Kelly and Ryan

Then when I saw the live interview on MTV, Madonna was wearing weird attire and an eye patch. This was to portray Madame X. This is nothing unusual for Madonna, and she is 60 years old and has a son. In her music video, she was dancing with a much younger man. From his appearance, he looked young enough to be her son.

I mentioned it before, but the first thing that went through my mind when I saw that eye patch was that she must have got into a cat fight over the young man and the eye patch was the end result of that cat fight. By the way, the hula hoop was also invented in 1958. So we're both the same age as the hula hoop and it's still around.

As a matter of fact, Rhythmic Gymnasts use the hula hoop in their routines. I guess it's obvious that the hula hoop is doing something right and it will definitely outlive Madonna and myself.

 

[BittyBug]

If she's all about empowerment for older women....

If she were truly interested in empowering older women, then maybe she should stop trying to pretend that her face is somehow magically frozen in time. To move away from ageism we need to embrace that looks change as we age. Laura Dern, Frances McDormand, Meryl Streep, Maggie Smith, Judy Dench - they have owned who they are at every stage of their lives, and that is true empowerment.

There is a lot one can do to looks one's best at any age, but it is just not natural to have no wrinkles and a plump face at 61, and the message doing so sends is that it's not ok to age.

 

[antmanb]

Someone - Jenny? - posted a few years ago that Madonna got a lot of flack from fans for using pre-recorded tracks on one tour, then was lambasted for singing live on the next, saying M could not win. I think the problem is that Madonna has built a career on ever-more-elaborate, physically complicated shows. I think the only singer who can do a credible live stage show like that is Beyonce - and even she probably uses track sometimes.

Yes absolutely - I totally agree. Personally I don't mind a pre-recorded track if it's a particularly energetic part of the show and would prefer it if it means the vocals over all sound better. Also I saw Beyoncé (wow the accent autocorrected on - the power of Beyoncé is great ) live a good few years ago - the I am...Sasha Fierce era and there was plenty of backing track going on there, but she did sing the big ballads live, which is pretty much the perfect mix, for me.

The sad part is that I think Madonna gets really nervous when she has to sing live and it causes problems. When she was doing promo for Rebel Heart she sang Joan of Arc live all over Europe (and she did the proper ballad version that was originally slated for the album not the awful pop production version that it was changed to after the leak of Rebel Heart), and while she always struggled to pitch the first note, once she got going the rest was really impressive vocally.

The issue with Saturday night was that it was so stripped back with very little supporting music that she was totally exposed, but I would also be beyond amazed if she wasn't fed at least the opening note through her monitors. She seemed to start each line fine but the long notes at the end of each line were just drifting all over the place.

 

[Jenny]

Didn't see the performance in question, sounds like there's little point in seeking it out. But I will say this. She's always be a persona + performer, and that's what she's continuing to do. I have a smattering of her albums over the years, love many of her songs (practically the soundtrack of my adult life in many ways!) but can't say I was a "fan" until I happened on the Rebel Heart concert video and then immediately bought the album. Edits/overdubs/lip synching/whatever, Madonna's still got it. She's still a fierce persona and a highly entertaining performer, and that's what I think her long term fans, the ones that buy everything and continue to fill stadiums, love about her.

Anyone seen Robert De Niro's recurring turn as Robert Mueller on SNL? He's got the look and the character down, but it's a live show and even while quite obviously reading cue cards he stumbles through his handful of lines. Which he doesn't write by the way, because he's an actor, and as it turns out, despite being one of the legends with a long and much-lauded career, the man can't do it live. And yet somehow I don't think his career will be over until he decides it's over, which may be never.

Ditto Madonna.

 

[taf2002]

If she were truly interested in empowering older women, then maybe she should stop trying to pretend that her face is somehow magically frozen in time. To move away from ageism we need to embrace that looks change as we age. Laura Dern, Frances McDormand, Meryl Streep, Maggie Smith, Judy Dench - they have owned who they are at every stage of their lives, and that is true empowerment.

There is a lot one can do to looks one's best at any age, but it is just not natural to have no wrinkles and a plump face at 61, and the message doing so sends is that it's not ok to age.

What's natural? Both of my parents lived to their mid-80s. My dad had no wrinkles other than bags under his eyes & my mom had a couple of faint lines around her eyes that could be covered with make-up. I'm 72 & I have no wrinkles other than ( ) around my mouth. The truth is, you have no idea what any of these actresses have done to look their best. I've never heard any of them celebrating wrinkles.

If she's all about empowerment for older women, then why doesn't she hire dancers (male and female) her own age to perform with? She still hires the 20 year old dancers, and she could still keep up with them until the last few years, and now it just highlights her own shortcomings.

Who wants to see 60 yr olds dancing around with skimpy clothes? Have you ever seen a mature singer perform with dancers her own age? Does Tina Turner?

 

[quartz]

I’ve never considered Madonna a singer, but a performer, I certainly don’t “listen” to her music, but even as a lifelong rocker/prog chick, I would hit the dance floor back in the early 80’s if Lucky Star or Holiday came on. I would then have to do a cleanse and put on some Judas Priest or Black Sabbath afterwards tho, I can only handle a wee bit of pop at a time.

Mostly I appreciate that she is a master marketer, and the product is herself, I don’t know that there is anyone else that has re-inventerd herself so many times. She’s been wildly successful and if she wanted to retire and do nothing she certainly could, but if she wants to continue to get up on stage, more power to her. No one has to watch if they don’t want to.

As to the aging thing, well, its her face and she can do what she wants to it, but when someone obviously has had work done, I think it makes people scrutinize that much closer to see what work has all been done. I’m embracing the aging process and determined that there is no shame in either getting older, or looking older, but I also realize there are many people who are horrified at the aging process, and will do whatever to pretend its not happening.

 

[antmanb]

Who wants to see 60 yr olds dancing around with skimpy clothes?

Isn't that what critics say about Madonna performing now?

ETA: I think the main issue with Madonna's "product" nowadays is how woefully behind the curve she is. Back in the day she was the trail blazer who was ahead of the curve, taking things that were underground and making them mainstream, whereas now, she has no clue what is current let alone what is on the horizon. She used to make people's careers by bringing them along with her and now she turns to people who are already established to try to gain current credibility. From turning to Pharrell Williams after he'd already produced a hundred other pop stars' albums, to collaborations with pop stars much younger and more "now" than she is.

The whole Madame X costuming etc made me think "Didn't she already do this 20 years ago as 'Dita' in the Erotica phase?" And she did it much better then. And she has to stop wearing a grill...seriously.

 

[BittyBug]

What's natural? Both of my parents lived to their mid-80s. My dad had no wrinkles other than bags under his eyes & my mom had a couple of faint lines around her eyes that could be covered with make-up. I'm 72 & I have no wrinkles other than ( ) around my mouth. The truth is, you have no idea what any of these actresses have done to look their best. I've never heard any of them celebrating wrinkles.

But you and your parents had some lines, right? That's normal and natural. It is not normal to have NO lines or wrinkles or hollows or any sign of you having aged beyond your 20's when you are in your 60's.

And my point, which I thought was pretty clear, isn't that no one should have any work done. Dye your hair, get your teeth crowned, zap a furrow line, fill in a smile line, but keep it at least semi-real. I may not know for certain whether Frances McDormund or Laura Dern have had any work, but I can say with a very high degree of confidence that Madonna has had work. Not only because she looks plastic (literally from too much fillers) but because you can readily find photos of her from her 40's when she has visible wrinkles. And here's another thing I'm pretty sure about: those wrinkles didn't magically disappear from using her new MDNA beauty creme line.

And as for celebrating wrinkles, I think there's a difference between "celebrating" wrinkles and accepting them as a natural part of the aging process, but here you go:

https://people.com/tv/why-frances-mcdormand-hates-plastic-surgery/ (look at her beautiful face - it looks lived in)
https://www.nextavenue.org/10-great-frances-mcdormand-quotes-aging/

 

[Miezekatze]

Has anyone seen Taylor Swift perform live? Her voice is worse than this every damned time. She is a recording artist, NOT a singer. I'm kind of impressed that she seems to sing live all the time anyway - but damn.

I actually didn't find Taylor singing badly live on the stadium tour Netflix film, but my friend texted me that she'd looked into it and was really shocked, because she'd always thought Taylor was a good live singer?

Maybe I've just got a low standard being a longtime Madonna fan

But generally I think there aren't that many people where live sounds as good or better than recorded and if it's usually people like Celine Dion, Barbra, ... who mostly stand on stage and have very professional singing education. In pop I generally find it rare. Gaga is great live I think, but then I don't like her shows and the dancing, because in her case it's the other way round for me, since she doesn't dance all that well, I find the shows unnecessary and rahter like her singing ballads with the piano or jazz.

As for the plastic surgery/botox, I'm not crazy about it, but I actually think she looks better now again than 10 years ago or so, which happens with a lot of people who use it (think Kylie). Sadly I think it's sort of become the norm (even the contestants at ESC who ARE young have this Botox/plastic surgery look to them already somehow). But then I think I'm getting used to it when people do it a long time. Cyndi Lauper does not look much different or Debbie Harry, nor does Barbra. I also prefer the natural look, but it's really become very rare, Jodie Foster is one example. Cher certainly was ahead of her time, she's set the trend 30 years ago or so

 

[Prancer]

Madonna is already in the category of stars whose existing fans will still come see them (for lots of $$$) in droves but are no longer relevant to current music charts. This isn't likely to alienate her core base, who comes for the spectacle more than the live singing anyway.

I read an article about Britney Spears the other day that said that Madonna was the voice of the 80s into the early 90s and Britney was the voice of the 90s into the early 00s, and I thought that sounded about right, so I was pretty surrpised to see the thread title.

Taylor Swift has a just-decent voice but shines as a songwriter.

If you ask me (and I know you didn't), where Taylor Swift really shines is as a businesswoman, which is not all that shocking for the daughter of two financial managers. But really--she has control over every aspect of her career and her music and always has, something few singers can say.

She isn't a very good singer, but I think she has a little voice with a small range that was better suited to her first songs--countryish ballads--than the stadium songs she is trying to do now. Pop music seems to favor high voices for both men and women and a lot of pop singers are always straining to sing at the high end of their registers, which makes them sing thin and/or flat.

That's my theory, anyway.

Katy Perry can sing but she’s so damn obnoxious.

Katy Perry once planned to be an opera singer. I find that kind of mind boggling. I don't think she's very good

Of all the current women, P!nk is far and away my favorite.

P!nk took voice lessons when she was young and it shows, but for me, what really stands out about her is that she has always had a very strong point of view about who she is and what she wants to do with music.

Has anyone seen Taylor Swift perform live? Her voice is worse than this every damned time. She is a recording artist, NOT a singer. I'm kind of impressed that she seems to sing live all the time anyway - but damn.

As Miley Cyrus once said when people criticized her for straining for high notes, at least you know she's singing live.

 

[VGThuy]

Didn't see the performance in question, sounds like there's little point in seeking it out. But I will say this. She's always be a persona + performer, and that's what she's continuing to do. I have a smattering of her albums over the years, love many of her songs (practically the soundtrack of my adult life in many ways!) but can't say I was a "fan" until I happened on the Rebel Heart concert video and then immediately bought the album. Edits/overdubs/lip synching/whatever, Madonna's still got it. She's still a fierce persona and a highly entertaining performer, and that's what I think her long term fans, the ones that buy everything and continue to fill stadiums, love about her.

Anyone seen Robert De Niro's recurring turn as Robert Mueller on SNL? He's got the look and the character down, but it's a live show and even while quite obviously reading cue cards he stumbles through his handful of lines. Which he doesn't write by the way, because he's an actor, and as it turns out, despite being one of the legends with a long and much-lauded career, the man can't do it live. And yet somehow I don't think his career will be over until he decides it's over, which may be never.

Ditto Madonna.

The fact that this thread was even made shows Madonna still means something somewhere. People forget that even though she may not be relevant in the Hot 100 charts or whatever, her songs are still showing up in dance charts and her arena tours always end up being either the most profitable tour that year or even breaking records she herself set back in the mid-2000s. Just from my observation, Madonna doesn't seem to suffer the same sort of ageist sexism and hate from fans of other pop singers in most other countries that she does in the U.S. at least not in the same degree for some reason. Regarding her age, I used to care about her being late on trends or revisiting material or whatever, but now I don't care. I just appreciate she's out there putting out product that she stands by. Contemporary criticism can turn out to be wrong, even regarding Madonna...i.e. her Erotica album which is now considered a forward-thinking classic among pop/House music aficionados.

I do think a lot of the criticisms directed at her (not all obviously because some are right on the money regarding music or performance...but I'm talking about a lot of the more knee-jerk angry ones) mimic a lot of criticisms I see from certain socially regressive corners for a multitude of reasons. I totally expect every time news comes out about her, there will be a whole wave of people saying the same tired criticisms about her and telling her to just retire and make way for someone who that person is a fan of. So just her existing and going on is pissing people off. That says a lot to me.

I think her material is there and her music got better in the 90s to mid-to-late 2000s (though maybe less catchy and less single-heavy) in terms of substance and messaging. I think once she dies, people will then rediscover her and appreciate her more. Right now, there are some Millennial or Gen Z YouTubers who are reacting to her discography and discovering that they actually really like or even love her music and her performance quality in her prime.

To me, Madonna has played a huge part in my life and spoke to me during the important developmental ages where I was discovering what I believed in and what made sense to me. I still admire her crazy work ethic, her business sense, and her dance ability. People really do sleep on her live performance skills (maybe not vocally) but compared to so many pop stars who perform live now, Madonna always put in so much effort and had a team that really put on some of the some amazing shows that other artists would later copy (including her latest tours). Madonna is probably going to have to transition to a phase in her life where she can't be as demanding on her body as she used to. Or she should talk to Chita Rivera or many older Broadway dancer-singer-actors. Rivera was performing on Broadway 8 times a week in her 80s in a show that required dancing and was nominated for a Tony for it (though I read some criticisms from some that she was way past her prime and couldn't really dance and never could really sing so what did she have to offer...which sounds familiar).

 

[taf2002]

Two pop singers who I think sound wonderful live is Lady Gaga & Demi Lovato. I don't agree about Celine Dion, I have always hated her voice, it's like nails on a blackboard for me. I still think Barbara sounds pretty good though.

BTW @BittyBug, although my dad's eyebags were pretty dark he had absolutely no lines. Neither do I. My mom had faint lines as I said above. But that's just genetics & good skin care in her & my case. My previous point was that there's no hard & fast rule about wrinkles. I had a aunt who not only had no lines, she also had no visible pores.

 

[genevieve]

Katy Perry once planned to be an opera singer. I find that kind of mind boggling. I don't think she's very good

I used to love looking on sites where vocal teachers rate contemporary singers. They all rate Katy Perry as being among the worst

Seeing Mariah Carey rated over and over again as the gold standard made me go and give her another listen. I still don't like her songs, but have a new appreciation for the utter ease and facility she had with her voice as a young woman. Go look up her performance of "Emotions" on Arsenio Hall - it is amazing.

If you want to see an example of a female singer who can still hit those notes powerfully as she has aged, check out Ann Wilson (Heart).

 

[alchemy void]

If you haven't seen Madonna's speech from the 2016 Billboard Women in Music awards, I *highly* recommend it. It's definitely well worth 10 minutes of your time. She addresses some of the points brought up in this thread, specifically aging, misogamy in the music industry, and feminism.

"People say that I'm so controversial, but I think the most controversial thing I have ever done is stick around."

ETA: I think the main issue with Madonna's "product" nowadays is how woefully behind the curve she is. Back in the day she was the trail blazer who was ahead of the curve, taking things that were underground and making them mainstream, whereas now, she has no clue what is current let alone what is on the horizon. She used to make people's careers by bringing them along with her and now she turns to people who are already established to try to gain current credibility. From turning to Pharrell Williams after he'd already produced a hundred other pop stars' albums, to collaborations with pop stars much younger and more "now" than she is.

Totally agree. And she was a trailblazer in the music industry (and pop culture) for over twenty years, from '83 to about '05, which is insane, if you think about it. But the last ten years...that's a totally different story. I do have to say I think Rebel Heart was the best thing she did since Confessions, and was looking forward to more of that direction with the new album, but from what I've heard so far of Madame X... ooof.

Having said that, like others have said, she can make whatever the hell kind of music she wants, and do whatever the hell she wants with her face. The fans (gays) will always come out full force in support on tour.

For me, as a fan, I listen to the speech I linked above, and I just feel like she's so badass and has such a unique POV, I wish more of this made it into her music. (It used to: 1995's Human Nature is a great example, and hasn't aged a day in 20 years).

To me, Madonna has played a huge part in my life and spoke to me during the important developmental ages where I was discovering what I believed in and what made sense to me.

Same here. As a closeted gay teen in the late 90s, I was empowered by her music and videos, even if I didn't fully realize it at the time. I do remember VH1 used to occasionally run "Madonnarama" music video marathons. I would scramble to tape the marathons on VHS--and remember the excruciating decision to tape over some mid-90s Ladies Pro skating competition to capture all the videos.

 

[snoopy]

I am riffing off a comment I heard a long time ago about Madonna - her voice is ordinary but its her music that makes her songs special and popular. I think that was *her* creativity too. She wisely worked with talented people in the industry but she wrote a lot of her own stuff.

 

[Prancer]

I used to love looking on sites where vocal teachers rate contemporary singers. They all rate Katy Perry as being among the worst

Yes, and if you listen to her on YouTube with the sound stripped to just her vocals, it's usually pretty

I have read that she is actually better on tour than she is singing live on television and this is attributed to nerves. Maybe, but boy does she get off key when she's on TV. She really, really needs a voiceover track.

Seeing Mariah Carey rated over and over again as the gold standard made me go and give her another listen. I still don't like her songs, but have a new appreciation for the utter ease and facility she had with her voice as a young woman. Go look up her performance of "Emotions" on Arsenio Hall - it is amazing.

When I posted a while back that Ariana Grande is a very good singer, you said that she was pretty meh compared to Mariah at her peak, and I thought, "Well, who isn't?"

Love or hate her music, Mariah had a once-in-a-lifetime voice when she was young. It's a shame she didn't take better care of it.

If you want to see an example of a female singer who can still hit those notes powerfully as she has aged, check out Ann Wilson (Heart).

Pat Benatar also still sounds great. And not coincidentally, both of them had a lot of formal voice training and have worked to maintain their technique all these years.

OTOH, Katy Perry apparently has a voice coach, so that's not all it takes.

 

[CaliSteve]

ETA: at least Streisand originally had a legendary voice. No one will ever say that about Madonna.

Word!

 

[MacMadame]

Katy Perry once planned to be an opera singer. I find that kind of mind boggling. I don't think she's very good

This is probably why those plans didn't pan out.

 

[PRlady]

Who wants to see 60 yr olds dancing around with skimpy clothes? Have you ever seen a mature singer perform with dancers her own age? Does Tina Turner?

Tina Turner did 90 minutes a day on the treadmill into her ‘60s and her legs remained amazing. Genetics plus hard work.

If you ask me (and I know you didn't), where Taylor Swift really shines is as a businesswoman, which is not all that shocking for the daughter of two financial managers. But really--she has control over every aspect of her career and her music and always has, something few singers can say.

She’s very smart, agreed. I don’t like her pop phase either.

P!nk took voice lessons when she was young and it shows, but for me, what really stands out about her is that she has always had a very strong point of view about who she is and what she wants to do with music.

I’m Not Dead is the breakup album of all time for me. And she was a gymnast: I saw her live and she was swinging all over the arena like Tarzan. It was amazing.

.

And Ann Wilson had and still has an amazing voice, and has taken crap for her weight her entire career. Another survivor is Sade (very different genre), whose voice is as mysterious and alluring as it was thirty years ago.

 

[Miezekatze]

I do think Madonna is probably a bit out of shape at the moment, since seh performed like 3 times in the last 3 years, so it migth have been a bad idea to do something so ambitious under such difficult circumstances, but I actually sort of like that she seems to have given up on the fitness freak stuff and maybe was a bit lazy the last years in Portugal (I thought her legs looked great under the 200 kilogram costume )

I assume she'll get in better shape for the tour and I'd really like to see it, because I liked the "Tears of a clown" special she did, which also was in a more intimate setting.

But an acquaintance of mine is in the "Legacy fan club member" fan group who gets preferential fan sale and he still didn't get into the ticket sale for London, but only on the waiting list, so I see my chance at tickets dwindling away But since they keep adding more shows and more cities, maybe there'll be a chance. I guess as long as people are willing to pay up to 2000 dollars for 1 ticket , her career is not THAT ruined yet (I'd only consider one of the lower end price tickets )

I'm not crazy about the Madame X songs, but I also don't find them that bad. I pretty much ignored the "Hard Candy" and "MDNA" albums, since that really wasn't my taste, but I thought Rebel Heart was very good and Madame X is at least not unpromising to me.

 

[VGThuy]

One thing I do like about the Madame X songs that I’ve heard is that Madonna seems to just be chilling and having fun with no grand pretensions over what music she’s making now. It’s like she relaxed in Portugal being a literal soccer mom for her son David and met up with a bunch of a different artists and jammed with them. One thing about Madonna was that she was such a fitness freak that I like that it looks like she’s just enjoying eating and drinking again.

 

[genevieve]

When I posted a while back that Ariana Grande is a very good singer, you said that she was pretty meh compared to Mariah at her peak, and I thought, "Well, who isn't?"

Love or hate her music, Mariah had a once-in-a-lifetime voice when she was young. It's a shame she didn't take better care of it.

I'm definitely at the age where I repeat myself A LOT

But I think what I meant about the Ariana vs Mariah comparison is that Ariana hits all those notes and sounds record-ready (at least in the live performances I've seen), but there's no there there. Mariah had the amazing voice and was able to just let it fly all over the place.

Perhaps I said exactly that back then

Pat Benatar also still sounds great. And not coincidentally, both of them had a lot of formal voice training and have worked to maintain their technique all these years.

YES. Pat Benatar definitely still sounds great. She trained as an opera singer so maybe not a surprise. She's one of those singers that was hugely popular over a pretty decent number of years (and Female Rock Vocalist Grammy winner 4 years in a row), but is somehow overlooked now. I don't know how or why she isn't in the Rock n Roll HOF yet. It's as if Love is a Battlefield (a very good song, but an iconic video) overshadowed her earlier, more pioneering rock output.

 

[manhn]

Ariana cannot enunciate. It drives me crazy.

Love her or hate her, but Celine takes care of her voice like no other singer.

 

[BittyBug]

Ariana cannot enunciate. It drives me crazy.

Love her or hate her, but Celine takes care of her voice like no other singer.

https://youtu.be/ss9ygQqqL2Q?t=298

 

[genevieve]

Ariana is way more fun when doing impressions of other artists than when she sings her own stuff (see also: her SNL appearance as the Spotify intern who saves the day)

 

[watchthis!!]

Well I obviously struck a nerve with you, but I'm not sure why you seem to think that in order to criticize Madonna I need to criticize others as well, male or female. Madonna can do whatever the hell she pleases, including leaving her house looking like a claymation figurine, and I can criticize her for trying to cling to a youth and talent long gone, and you can like it or not.

My point was that how often do we see women being criticized like we're seeing in this thread compared to men? Like I said, the men get a free pass while women are put under a microscope for us to pick at.

If she were truly interested in empowering older women, then maybe she should stop trying to pretend that her face is somehow magically frozen in time. To move away from ageism we need to embrace that looks change as we age. Laura Dern, Frances McDormand, Meryl Streep, Maggie Smith, Judy Dench - they have owned who they are at every stage of their lives, and that is true empowerment.

Oh. I thought true empowerment was doing what one wanted. Even while being surrounded by hordes of people shaking their fingers at you.

 

[Aussie Willy]

If there are two artists that I could sit and watch all their videos, one is Madonna and the other is Kylie.

I have been a Madonna fan since Holiday. While she doesn't have it any more, she is still an icon and been a major trailblazer for pop music.

There are certain artists while singing wise they are not great, but the music rises above that. For me New Order is one of those bands. Sh*t singer and lyrics aren't great, but the music is just brilliant.