Should Transgender Women be competing in Women's sporting events?

[Jot the Dot Dot]

This news item about the British rapper Zuby (admit I never heard of him, but the issue raised is quite valid) breaking women's weightlifting records while 'identifying' as a woman for the duration of this publicity stunt made me think of starting a poll here. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-weightlifting-records-identifying-woman.html . Should genetically born men be allowed to compete in women's sports simply by announcing that they 'identify' as women? This is not to say that transgender women don't exist, but how can a person's pronouncements alter their chromosomes, their bone structure or muscle mass? If it's a chess tournament or spelling bee, that is one thing, as gender doesn't predetermine the outcome of those. But allowing biological men to compete against women in sporting events where physical strength is paramount would in most people's views make a mockery of such 'competitions'. Also, there is nothing to stop anyone from organizing their own unisex competitions, but the reason why such events have never gotten past the novelty stage - like Billie Jean King vs. Bobby Riggs - only proves my point, who would watch a match so overwhelmingly predetermined that it is a mismatch by definition? I doubt anyone of the caliber of a Roger Federer or a Rafael Nadel would pull such a stunt. But all it would take is one 'wet blanket' to demand the right to compete against biological women, and more and more, young girls will see their efforts be for naught.

ETA: I imagine the question of testosterone levels might be relevant, so I'll have the choice of a testosterone test tossed in (you try saying that 5 times in a row!).

 

[Aceon6]

I can’t pick either. I’m in favor of the testosterone threshold test as it can be applied fairly regardless of how the athlete identifies.

 

[nimi]

This news item about the British rapper Zuby (admit I never heard of him, but the issue raised is quite valid) breaking women's weightlifting records while 'identifying' as a woman for the duration of this publicity stunt made me think of starting a poll here. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-weightlifting-records-identifying-woman.html

I refuse to click because it's Daily Mail but... seriously, you're relying on info from Daily Mail? WTH? Have you even checked out the IOC guidelines re: transgender athletes? Why spread misinfo and give the impression that no testosterone suppression (which affects muscle mass etc.) is required anywhere in women's sports when it is in fact required, in Olympic sports as well as in a lot of other places?

IIRC the current IOC guidelines state that 2 years of HRT (i.e. testosterone levels below a certain threshold) is required for trans women wanting to compete against other women, plus there's a number of other requirements they must meet, so this fear-mongering about trans women coming and taking over of women's sport is largely based on misinfo, and also on a lot of unscientific assumptions about biological sex. Hint: hormonal sex is part of "biological sex", and HRT addresses that. Also: there used to be chromosomal testing in Olympics but it was abandoned because it didn't really work, not all cis women are XX and not all cis men XY, there are cases of XY women giving birth, other chromosomal constellations exist as do intersex people, there are more than 2 biological sexes, etc. etc.

So basically, I don't even know where to start with this poll/OP... Can the OP define what they mean by "biological women", for starters? Do you "only" want to exclude trans women or are you against intersex women (e.g. women with CAIS) as well?

 

[Diane Mars]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/b...emenya-testosterone-levels-female-sport-court....

Not the same as your question, but makes sense here. Decision until March 26th.....

 

[nimi]

The OP mentioned Billie Jean King and I just remembered coming across this Outsports article (which also contains useful links to various articles and studies about the issue)

What does Billie Jean King say about Martina Navratilova’s stance on trans athletes?

 

[Winnipeg]

I guess there could be 4 categories or even 5?

Women
Men
Trans Women
Trans Men
Gender neutral

 

[Winnipeg]

As an aside, I read somewhere that pairs and dance could be made up of same sex couples. Does anyone know the rule on this?

 

[allezfred]

IOC have allowed transgender people to compete at the Olympics since 2004. Anyone care to name a transgender Olympian off the top of their heads?

The question has to be asked what is the motive behind people who are trying to fix a system that is not broken....

 

[Aceon6]

The question has to be asked what is the motive behind people who are trying to fix a system that is not broken....

Old white men. It’ll come up every two years until more enlightened people form the majority in sports governing bodies. I expect to hear about it weekly if Caster Semenya runs the table in Diamond League again.

 

[caseyedwards]

Only after treatments where they have normal testosterone levels for women

 

[MacMadame]

As an aside, I read somewhere that pairs and dance could be made up of same sex couples. Does anyone know the rule on this?

This came up when Blades of Glory came out. No, Pairs and Dance disciplines can't be made up of two men or two women in the ISU. The description of the discipline specifically says a man and a woman.

 

[Winnipeg]

What if a woman or man declares they are the other or identifies as the other?

 

[Aceon6]

What if a woman or man declares they are the other or identifies as the other?

I doubt that the majority of USFS higher ups even acknowledge trans people.

 

[MacMadame]

There are plenty of rules in place about this especially for Olympic sports. You can't just declare you are a woman (or a man) and that's it. There are hoops to jump through. Since elite skating is on the Olympic-track, I assume the USOC rules are the ones that count. Could be wrong about that. But since we're talking about a handful of people or maybe even none (most figure skaters never get that far in the sport), I'm not too worried about it.

 

[nimi]

What if a woman or man declares they are the other or identifies as the other?

Search words "IOC transgender guidelines" will give you a bunch of articles that should answer your questions/concerns. For your convenience, I'll link the top 2 search results here so all you have to do is click and do a little bit of reading:

IOC Consensus Meeting on Sex Reassignment and Hyperandrogenism November 2015 (pdf)

The Guardian article about the IOC transgender guidelines and what they mean


Also, consider that when transphobic lawmakers ignore the science around sports and gender transition and make bills preventing trans athletes from competing in their lived gender, ostensibly (but not really) to promote "fairness in sports", they actually create situations where a trans boy must either give up the sport or compete agains girls. For example, a high school wrestler Mack Beggs wanted to wrestle other boys, but the Texas "birth gender" rules didn't allow that, so he ended up dominating the girls' division.

 

[allezfred]

expect to hear about it weekly if Caster Semenya runs the table in Diamond League again.

Caster Semenya isn't trans.

 

[Aceon6]

Caster Semenya isn't trans.

Yes, I know that, but she keeps getting sucked into the discussion because her gender was assigned. After all these years competing, you’d think the media would move on.

 

[ilovepaydays]

BTW, here’s an HUGE update on Semenya’s case. She lost her appeal today.

 

[barbk]

BTW, here’s an HUGE update on Semenya’s case. She lost her appeal today.

I'm glad the decision came down that way. Too much testosterone creates a materially unfair playing field for women who do not have internal testes.

 

[MacMadame]

I think the decision is outrageous and clearly aimed only at her instead of at creating a level playing field. They are demanding she take hormones in order to compete to correct a completely natural condition.

If they were really interested in being fair, this ruling would be for *every* event in track and field and not just her events. And, females with too much testosterone would have to compete with the men rather than take drugs to be able to compete. They are telling her to endanger her health, if she wants to compete. Again, that's outrageous.

 

[allezfred]

I'm glad the decision came down that way. Too much testosterone creates a materially unfair playing field for women who do not have internal testes.

Caster Semenya is a woman. Outrageous that in a sport that is supposed to be fighting against chemical alteration to make athletes better, it will now chemically alter an athlete to make her slower because naturally she is too fast. Even worse that this doesn’t apply to all female athletic events, but just the ones in which Semenya competes! Shame, shame, shame.

 

[anonymoose_au]

I agree! I feel terrible for Caster, she's been picked on since day one and her condition is natural.

Like, she's devoted her life to her sport and now she's been told she can't do it anymore without taking drugs with who knows what side effects. What is she meant to do now?

It's really unfair!

 

[ilovepaydays]

I'm glad the decision came down that way. Too much testosterone creates a materially unfair playing field for women who do not have internal testes.

Assuming that material unfairness is here - and I’m open to that idea - why did they not just ban Semenya outright? Why only certain events? That’s the weirdest thing about this ruling.

 

[allezfred]

It is a rule designed to exclude one athlete from competing. Utterly shameful.

 

[MsZem]

Here's the executive summary of the CAS decision:

https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/CAS_Executive_Summary__5794_.pdf

 

[barbk]

Assuming that material unfairness is here - and I’m open to that idea - why did they not just ban Semenya outright? Why only certain events? That’s the weirdest thing about this ruling.

From what I read, they determined that it had a significant effect in only events at certain distances.

 

[ballettmaus]

I think every decision would have been unfair. Allowing her to compete when her testosterone levels are clearly giving her an advantage is unfair. Forcing her to take hormones for something she has no control over and that is a natural condition is unfair as well. Not allowing her to compete for the same reason is also unfair.

I have no idea what a fair solution would be but I hope that someone else comes up with one.

 

[barbk]

I agree! I feel terrible for Caster, she's been picked on since day one and her condition is natural.

Like, she's devoted her life to her sport and now she's been told she can't do it anymore without taking drugs with who knows what side effects. What is she meant to do now?

It's really unfair!

Do you let a 200 pound wrestler compete against a 105 pound wrestler, even if the 200 pound wrestler is at his/her natural weight? Why not? Because it isn't fair. Skaters have to reach a certain age by a certain date before they're allowed to compete in certain ISU events. Being born one day too late keeps you from competition. Some athletes with heart defects aren't allowed to compete in their sport even if they want to compete.

Some sports (shooting, for example) don't have separate competitions for men and women. For those sports that do have separate competitions, they have them for a reason.

 

[allezfred]

One more time for the cheap seats in the back - CASTER SEMENYA IS A WOMAN!

 

[caseyedwards]

But her testosterone is too high. It’s unfair. Time to reduce it or leave! It’s not a little high. It’s man level. It’s not proper