U.S. Men in 2018 - articles & latest news

[caseyedwards]

Browns strategy is very clear! It already worked to win world and Olympic gold when everyone said men needed quads. Make all triples consistent with great goe. Now that goe goes to five makes more sense now to keep his quadless lysacek strategy.

 

[olympic]

I think this will be one of the easier Nationals to predict - Chen, Brown, Zhou. Past national competitions were much more unpredictable because Rippon, Aaron, Hochstein, and Miner all had some sort of shot but they have all retired.

 

[baramin]

Re: Jason Brown’s world podium potential, let’s remember that the reigning world silver medalist included a rather poorly executed 3sal-2toe in his short program. Ice is slippery, etc.

Brown is unlikely to have made a coaching change at this point in his career if he weren’t aiming specifically at improving his jumps & getting a quad. And quad aside, he’s been a clutch performer for the US (see 2017 worlds) and has finished as high as 4th at worlds. He’s had a very respectable career and his quality of movement/difficulty of transitions have been matched by very few skaters. Focusing on securing his triples & his self-confidence so that he doesn’t lose ground this season & building up to a quad sal/toe for late this year/early next season isn’t a terrible strategy.

 

[caseyedwards]

There’s no doubt he wants to improve his triples. There’s no reason to believe he’s adding a quad. One would be tried every once in a while. Like in Zagreb maybe!

 

[jiejie]

There’s no reason to believe he’s adding a quad.

Baloney. Of course he's trying to add a quad. Going to Brian Orser is enough proof of that for me. You think Brian would have taken him on if Jason's goal was only to improve his triples?

 

[Tavi]

Brian was recently interviewed on the Olympic Channel and spoke briefly about Jason. Among other things, he mentioned that he was working on quads and having “some success.”

 

[VGThuy]

I think Jason is smart and is thinking about the long game to 2022 here. Of course he knows he'll need quads to compete. If Jason was complacent, he would have stayed with Kori. Jason may be a beautiful, artistic skater who really pays attention to things most skaters do not and thus rightfully receives high GOEs and PCS, but he's also clearly a competitor and hungry for more. I said it before and I'll say it again. Jason is that rare bird who is both an American artistic skater but who is also a true competitor and does not choke under pressure. Even his less-than-stellar skates in the past all seemed to be tech/injury related rather than mental. After the past 10 years of so of having my heart broken by beautiful American male skaters who seemed fragile or scared of competition, Jason is like the experiment that finally worked.

 

[nimi]

Brian was recently interviewed on the Olympic Channel and spoke briefly about Jason. Among other things, he mentioned that he was working on quads and having “some success.”

You mean this podcast with Meryl Davis as the interviewer?
https://www.podbean.com/media/share/dir-m696b-5376cdb

The Jason bit starts around the 15 min mark. After discussing Med and coaching changes and how there are no quick fixes, Meryl asks about Jason and his quad. Brian basically says that because Jason is already in his twenties, the process of breaking down the technique and relearning it is even more challenging and and time-consuming, but he praises Jason's attitude and work ethic and says that he's "thriving" in the Cricket Club coaching environment.

 

[Colonel Green]

There’s no reason to believe he’s adding a quad.

You mean beyond that he’s openly stated he is? And has attempted it in practise, which is why his free program is choreographed the way it is?

One would be tried every once in a while. Like in Zagreb maybe!

If it’s not working, why would he try it in a competition that he wants to win? He went to Zagreb for the experience and the world standing points.

 

[Tavi]

You mean this podcast with Meryl Davis as the interviewer?
https://www.podbean.com/media/share/dir-m696b-5376cdb

The Jason bit starts around the 15 min mark. After discussing Med and coaching changes and how there are no quick fixes, Meryl asks about Jason and his quad. Brian basically says that because Jason is already in his twenties, the process of breaking down the technique and relearning it is even more challenging and and time-consuming, but he praises Jason's attitude and work ethic and says that he's "thriving" in the Cricket Club coaching environment.

Yes, that’s what I was referring to. Thanks for linking it.

 

[caseyedwards]

Baloney. Of course he's trying to add a quad. Going to Brian Orser is enough proof of that for me. You think Brian would have taken him on if Jason's goal was only to improve his triples?

Yes because he’s being paid to! And it’s perfectly reasonable to believe with browns PCS and +5 goe on spins and steps that as long he did a program of all triples executed he could be world and Olympic champion. He’s in a very unique position. He’s the only one who doesn’t need quads to close to winning a GP event and he won Zagreb

You mean beyond that he’s openly stated he is? And has attempted it in practise, which is why his free program is choreographed the way it is?


If it’s not working, why would he try it in a competition that he wants to win? He went to Zagreb for the experience and the world standing points.

I never believe a man who doesn’t do quads wants to do them until they do them! It’s the whole Eldredge effect! Than Lysacek and Buttle!
You can’t learn quads if you never do them in competition

 

[Sylvia]

Cross-posting this link here and in the U.S. Ladies threads... USFS' Mitch Moyer and Justin Dillon spoke about Tomoki Hiwatashi, Camden Pulkinen and Andrew Torgashev of the Emerging Athletes Program in this reprinted article from the November issue of SKATING magazine: https://usfigureskatingfanzone.com/...-expectations-high-for-emerging-athletes.aspx

 

[Sylvia]

@olympic, Ross is the only one of the group you mentioned who has not officially retired yet (though he has not competed this season, he is still listed in USFS' Team B envelope).

 

[DreamSkates]

There’s no doubt he wants to improve his triples. There’s no reason to believe he’s adding a quad. One would be tried every once in a while. Like in Zagreb maybe!

I don't think that is Orser's plan. As he said to Brown in K & C after an early competition, "baby steps." Quad will be added when Orser believes the training has been effective enough and the time is right for Jason. Orser also has said that he needs at least 18 months with a skater before best results may be evident. We may not see a quad this year. But, winning a silver medal in France, shows you what progress Jason has made since last year.

 

[DreamSkates]

You can’t learn quads if you never do them in competition

Learning is a process. He did learn a quad, but was UR in 2 (?) past competitions. I would guess his technique was not effective so switching to Orser, he will get what he needs to learn a solid, confident, fully-rotated quad. You CAN learn quads but will not always be successful in competition. There are many examples.

There are also many examples of men who have supposedly learned quads but often fall or under-rotate them. So, have they really "learned" the quad if they can't land one fully and consistently. I would say, no.

 

[concorde]

I would say a skater has not learned a jump until they can do it fully rotatated with a good landing consistently in practice.
Doing it in competition is an even higher standard.

 

[Colonel Green]

Yes because he’s being paid to!

The list of skaters who are willing to pay Brian Orser's coaching fees is much longer than the list of skaters who actually train with Brian Orser. He picks who he wants to work with.

 

[aftershocks]

I think Jason is smart and is thinking about the long game to 2022 here. Of course he knows he'll need quads to compete. If Jason was complacent, he would have stayed with Kori. Jason may be a beautiful, artistic skater who really pays attention to things most skaters do not and thus rightfully receives high GOEs and PCS, but he's also clearly a competitor and hungry for more. I said it before and I'll say it again. Jason is that rare bird who is both an American artistic skater but who is also a true competitor and does not choke under pressure. Even his less-than-stellar skates in the past all seemed to be tech/injury related rather than mental. After the past 10 years of so of having my heart broken by beautiful American male skaters who seemed fragile or scared of competition, Jason is like the experiment that finally worked.

I agree with you 100%. But also some of that pressure has surely unavoidably involved mental/ emotional factors. That's simply the way it is for all athletes. Jason has generally been able to keep it together mentally because he was happy with his coaching situation, and he believed in himself and his team. As he began to face setbacks and too much criticism and interference from fans and US fed, etc., surely his confidence began to erode and confusion set in. We could see that in how he began to falter on his triple axels, and look uncertain on jumps he could ordinarily land with his hands tied behind his back.

In any case, Jason is mostly a positive, upbeat person, so not making the Olympics propelled him to rethink his direction. It's just too bad that there was interference from too many people telling him what he needed to do. And that was happening for a number of years too with people trying to push him to change coaches/choreographers. Because he's such a great competitor and extremely talented, Jason will be able to meet all challenges head-on. I wish him well on his journey. That was a special moment at the French GP in the sp!

 

[Lacey]

I think Jason is in a good place going into the end of the 2018 year. Compared to where he was at Skate Canada, where a very calm Brian said, "Baby Steps," Jason must have said to himself, yes, ok, that makes sense, I can do that. Somewhere along this season Jason's 3A became beautifully solid. Bingo. And look at what steady programs we have seen since. I definitely also think Jason is secretly practicing those quads we are not yet seeing in his competitive programs. He is getting them ready, they may not be in his programs until next year, but he is not sitting around playing tiddlywinks. Because he has always had so much style and finesse, I am really looking forward to the remainder of this Olympic cycle for Jason. It's all going to be a complete package. Jason is smart and he is a great skater, Brian is smart and he was a great skater, I have a feeling they are meshing, it's all good.

 

[DimaToe]

Regarding Jason Brown. Domestically at least, while he isn’t delivering consistency he is delivering quality and the depth of the U.S. men isn’t anywhere near what it was during the 2014-18 Olympic cycle. Even with his issues he is easily the U.S. #2 right now and given his history of delivering at worlds, I think his place on the world team is all but a given if he skates Semi decently at nationals, even if he ended up 4th or whatever below someone like Krasnozhon or Pulkinen I believe the selection commitee would still go with Brown. It’s the post Olympic year, he still has time to see if he can land a quad in competition. Unlike earlier in his career, Jason has the experience and a coaching team with proven technical knowledge to try and get the jump that has alluded him.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ I think you mean 'eluded.' Jason will hopefully be fine. I'm wishing for better fp music selection, choreo and costumes for him though.

Meanwhile, here's an interesting feature (probably filmed around the time leading up to the Olympics), about mastering quads, and why 5 revolutions are likely impossible in figure skating. The discussion and demo features Dinh Tran, Timothy Goebel, Nathan Chen (in clips), and Prof Jim Richardson, a kinesiologist and physiologist at the University of Delaware:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7AjF4of300

Discussion of music selection in figure skating, featuring Adam Rippon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA_P3p7MI98

 

[aftershocks]

even if he ended up 4th or whatever below someone like Krasnozhon or Pulkinen

Both Krasnozhon and Pulkinen are still developing skaters with much to learn. Neither are as polished and experienced as Jason Brown. Even should Jason make mistakes, and he's actually not prone to making mistakes, I think Jason has more bravura artistry and competitive experience and skill to prevail over the young up-and-comers. Krasnozhon is generally consistent, but he's still very rough around the edges. Pulkinen is a lovely skater, but he still needs seasoning. I also don't think Pulkinen's fp is as consistent or suited to him as his sp.

The meltdown Jason had in the fp at Nationals last season was rare and unexpected, and likely had more to do with the skating order and Adam unexpectedly faltering on his last 2 jumps and being behind Vincent. Jason and AdaRipp were actually feeding off each other, and so skating after Adam with Ross having unexpectedly been credited for landing the elusive quad was all a factor in Jason feeling some heavy pressure. So that was definitely a case of mental/emotional factors trumping Jason's usually rock solid confidence and competitiveness.

Plus, Jason had to struggle mightily the previous year with injury to win a spot on the World team, and the year before that Jason had been out with injury and was denied a bye. All told, the pressure had built for Jason to that penultimate moment of fighting for a spot to attend his second Olympics, but sans 'almighty quad.' And it didn't help that U.S. fed had been consistently whispering in his ear to split with Kori Ade, while Kori had been trying to calm Jason and to inspire and bolster his confidence.

 

[SLIVER]

Krasnozhon's basics are awful, barring a total transformation I don't see him setting the world alight. Did he have a quad before he got injured last year because w/o one he's unexciting.
Where is Torgashev this year? I was hoping Dolensky would put it together sometime but looks like that's not really going to happen.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Regarding Jason Brown. Domestically at least, while he isn’t delivering consistency he is delivering quality and the depth of the U.S. men isn’t anywhere near what it was during the 2014-18 Olympic cycle. Even with his issues he is easily the U.S. #2 right now and given his history of delivering at worlds, I think his place on the world team is all but a given if he skates Semi decently at nationals, even if he ended up 4th or whatever below someone like Krasnozhon or Pulkinen I believe the selection commitee would still go with Brown. It’s the post Olympic year, he still has time to see if he can land a quad in competition. Unlike earlier in his career, Jason has the experience and a coaching team with proven technical knowledge to try and get the jump that has alluded him.

Ummmmmm Delivering at Worlds? Perhaps I am not reading correctly in 2015-2016 he placed 6 & 5.
In 2016-2017 he placed 8 & 7.

I do think he now has a great team behind him. And, the US may or may not send him (probably will), but it will take about two years for his new training to fully kick in.

 

[aftershocks]

Where is Torgashev this year?

Andrew's development and momentum has surely been hampered by the injury he sustained when he was a winning junior. He seemed to have a lot of difficulty adjusting when he came back after his injury. The switch to a new coach (other than his parents) seemed to be helpful. Andrew made the JGPF this season, but unfortunately he had to pull out of the final due to injury? And that pullout opened the door for first alternate, Canada's Stephen Gogolev, who had underperformed on the JGP this season. With his arsenal of jumps, Gogolev ended up winning the JGPF. Pulkinen was in first place after the sp, but faltered in his fp.

It was probably a good learning experience for Pulkinen who under the circumstances would have had a hard time winning against the fp score Gogolev posted (I think SG's PCS were overly high, but he deserved the win). Hopefully Pulkinen learned about the pressure of trying to calm nerves under the gun, skating last when a rival has posted a practically unbeatable score. I think Pulkinen can skate his fp well, but to me, it's not the best style/ music for him.

Krasnozohn has been very consistent, but he does need to focus on refining and polishing his moves, and continuing to find good music choices. I think Kras was marked down a bit overmuch this season in the senior ranks. But it is what it is. I believe Kras has a fairly good quad, but he's elected to focus on going clean for the moment.

 

[Marco]

I feel like perhaps the flip might be an easier quad for him? His triple was almost always perfect.

 

[aftershocks]

I feel like perhaps the flip might be an easier quad for him? His triple was almost always perfect.

Are you referencing Krasnozohn or Jason?

 

[Tavi]

Ummmmmm Delivering at Worlds? Perhaps I am not reading correctly in 2015-2016 he placed 6 & 5.
In 2016-2017 he placed 8 & 7.

I do think he now has a great team behind him. And, the US may or may not send him (probably will), but it will take about two years for his new training to fully kick in.

Are you talking about Jason at Worlds? He placed 4th in 2015, wasn’t on the team in 2016 (he was out of Nats with a back injury), placed 7th in 2017, and declined the spot in 2018 after Adam withdrew.

 

[layman]

Krasnozhon's basics are awful, barring a total transformation I don't see him setting the world alight. Did he have a quad before he got injured last year because w/o one he's unexciting.
Where is Torgashev this year? I was hoping Dolensky would put it together sometime but looks like that's not really going to happen.

Alexei has improved quite a bit. His skating seems a lot cleaner this season...the basics are improving. Perhaps his coaching change is making a difference.

He reminds me of a young Brian Boitano before Sandra Bezic got hold of him. Alexei could use the assistance of a top choreographer to get him to the next level.

 

[Dobre]

He could use some ballet.