The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Well I guess I may be the only one who feels Guignard/Fabbi have a really really good chance at winning the gold next week. Their programs looked really cohesive and well skated at Skate America. It will be interesting to see how Alexandra's levels will be scored in the twizzles and step sequences. I like S/B programs this season, but G/F looked much more smoother in person in my opinion.

Either way, the ice dance competition in Helsinki looks to be a really good competition.

Ugggg they would be in first place right now too without the time violation.

 

[starrynight]

I totally predict P/C will score somewhere in the late 80s near the 90s for their RD.

The score isn't the interesting thing at all... a high score is guaranteed (more so now with new judging system than ever particularly as H/D got 80 points with a level 1 TR last week). But I am interested to see how the tango romantica levels will interact with the GOE.

 

[VGThuy]

I'm not sure what you mean. I think you're curious to see if a level 1 TR can outscore a level 4 TR. I think with this GOE it's totally possible as there's only 0.50 difference between the levels for the TR. BV are level 1 is 5.35; level 2 is 5.85; level 3 is 6.35; and level 4 is 6.85. So the difference between a level 1 and a level 4 is 1.50 in BV. What made the difference for H/D is that they got 2.64 in GOE from having six +3 GOEs and three +4s with highest and lowest dropped while G/F got 2.07 from having four +2s, four +3s, and one +1. So if a team gets a level 1 but gets rewarded with +4s and +5 GOEs, then not only will it close the 1.50 gap but it can exceed it but I think a team that got a level 4 would need to get lower GOE than what G/F received for a team with a level 1 but +4 and +5 GOEs to outscore them on that element.

 

[Peepsquick]

I'm not sure what you mean. I think you're curious to see if a level 1 TR can outscore a level 4 TR. I think with this GOE it's totally possible as there's only 0.50 difference between the levels for the TR. BV are level 1 is 5.35; level 2 is 5.85; level 3 is 6.35; and level 4 is 6.85. So the difference between a level 1 and a level 4 is 1.50 in BV. What made the difference for H/D is that they got 2.64 in GOE from having six +3 GOEs and three +4s with highest and lowest dropped while G/F got 2.07 from having four +2s, four +3s, and one +1. So if a team gets a level 1 but gets rewarded with +4s and +5 GOEs, then not only will it close the 1.50 gap but it can exceed it but I think a team that got a level 4 would need to get lower GOE than what G/F received for a team with a level 1 but +4 and +5 GOEs to outscore them on that element.

That's actually scary!

 

[starrynight]

I'm not sure what you mean. I think you're curious to see if a level 1 TR can outscore a level 4 TR. I think with this GOE it's totally possible as there's only 0.50 difference between the levels for the TR. BV are level 1 is 5.35; level 2 is 5.85; level 3 is 6.35; and level 4 is 6.85. So the difference between a level 1 and a level 4 is 1.50 in BV. What made the difference for H/D is that they got 2.64 in GOE from having six +3 GOEs and three +4s with highest and lowest dropped while G/F got 2.07 from having four +2s, four +3s, and one +1. So if a team gets a level 1 but gets rewarded with +4s and +5 GOEs, then not only will it close the 1.50 gap but it can exceed it but I think a team that got a level 4 would need to get lower GOE than what G/F received for a team with a level 1 but +4 and +5 GOEs to outscore them on that element.

This is precisely what I am interested in. Thanks for such an interesting post!

We're experiencing a big shift from last quad when levels were king. When a team lost a level, they were basically dead in the water. It's very interesting to see that changing.

Also, how come Guignard/Fabbri cannot protest the 1 point deduction for the time violation when it was technological error in the rink that caused it? Seems highly unfair to me.

 

[Dobre]

On Twizzles:
Does anyone else think a lot more twizzles are dropping down to level three without obvious errors this season? (By obvious, I mean errors that don't appear to be even wobbles or hops or a dropped foot even on slow motion). I was feeling like more of the junior teams were dropping to level three without my anticipating it and now again with the seniors. I know occasionally a skater will start a set on the wrong edge or do three turns and lose levels without my seeing it, but then they usually lose more than one level. Anyway, there are times when things I don't see lead to a twizzle-level reduction. It just feels like this is happening a LOT more than last year. I was wondering if any of the rule changes are leading to this? Maybe the push for extra features is leading more teams to make mistakes, but still . . . I'd think it would lead to more obvious mistakes rather than subtle ones. So I'm curious.


On the rocker:
My understanding is that thvudragon is correct. If you scroll to the second half of p. 6 on this document and look at the white section under keypoints 3 & 4 of the first pattern:
https://www.isu.org/inside-single-p...ications-fs/16863-isu-communication-2148/file
Then you can see that on keypoints 3 & 4 of the first pattern the words "except rocker" have been scratched out. One assumes because the rocker is there and after the meeting at last year's worlds, it was decided that it would be included rather than excluded.

Yes, the rocker is one part of the 3rd key point of the 2nd pattern.

https://www.isu.org/inside-single-p...ications-fs/16863-isu-communication-2148/file - page 6.

Look in the white section below keypoints 3 & 4. If you still think the rocker that was originally excluded is in the second pattern, can you please tell me why. What is the abbreviation? (If it's Rk, then that is also in the 3rd & 4th keypoints for the first section and not in the 3rd keypoint of the second section. There is an Rk in the 2nd keypoint of the second section. Maybe Rk isn't the abbreviation for it at all. I'm just guessing on that. But I still think the crossed out words on the first pattern support thvudragon's answer. Why else have they been crossed out?


Dance Commentary Mini-Rant:

At the British Eurosport commentary through this entire event. Betina skids or goes off her edge at the start of the pattern on which they earn a Basic, and the commentator essentially says it's as sharp as perfection. The finale lift is ? in Hurtado & Khaliavin's RD, and the speaker says the second half is super strong. A bunch of twizzles get level 3s, all described as great. Lorraine & Quinn finish multiple points above the other teams in the RD portion of the battle for third: Carreira & Ponomarenko, Hurtado & Khaliavin, etc.; and the commentators decide to negatively compare M&C to Stepanova & Bukin? Also proclaim S&B clearly going to lead by competition's end before Guignard & Fabbri have skated, completely ignoring the fact that they were second at SA and have loads more senior experience than M&C and various World placements close to S&B. Drives me crazy when commentators miss the real stories and successes by mischaracterizing the battles in skating.

Just . . . a classic example of why I am so glad that I watched all the programs without commentary or in a language I don't understand first!

 

[cocotaffy]

Could someone actually provide a video for the rocker taking Guignard and Fabbri as they received a level 4 here to time it just when those elusive tough rockers are happening ? Yes, I am that clueless this year with this pattern

 

[casken]

Also, how come Guignard/Fabbri cannot protest the 1 point deduction for the time violation when it was technological error in the rink that caused it? Seems highly unfair to me.

This is what I want to know. If this happened to a US or CAN team, there would be pages of complaints here and a Jackie Wong article about it.

 

[starrynight]

This is what I want to know. If this happened to a US or CAN team, there would be pages of complaints here and a Jackie Wong article about it.

I feel like not a lot of people actually watched the competition. But yeah it's weird that this has just been ignored. I suspect if the reason for the deduction was mentioned when the scores were announced (and everyone knew it wasn't an extended lift like the commentators supposed there would have been a lot bigger reaction).

I think a team has 30 minutes to lodge a protest? Although I recall that didn't matter much at 2017 Europeans after Anna and Luca had to return their short dance small medal after the judges went back to the hotel and a mistake in the judging was noticed after everyone watched YouTube

Guignard/Fabbri seemed really really pleased with their score in the Kiss n Cry so perhaps they didn't think to protest. Although I imagine if the difference between 1st and 2nd after the free is less than a point it may seem different.

 

[VGThuy]

It seriously does seem unfair.

 

[manhn]

That is ridiculous. WTF?

 

[Dobre]

To me, theoretically-speaking it's a "win" in the Rhythm Dance for Guignard & Fabbri anyway. It's a GP. They finish within one point of Stepanova & Bukin based on something they couldn't control. They are in a great position to fight for the competition today and to qualify for the GPF--which is what's really important at this stage of the season for all these teams trying to make it for the first time. All great for G&F along their longer journey. (TBH, I thought she looked really nervous before the music started, and I think the delay may have helped them relax). For sure, I don't think this type of problem should ever happen to skaters. I remember when Pang & Tong took a 1 point music deduction at the Olympic Games in Vancouver. First time they had a music deduction all season as far as I recall, and it happens at the Olympics! They could easily have missed the final group for the LP. That could have been worth freaking out over. But this is a successful moment for Guignard & Fabbri.

Also, I'm sure Barbara is or will be all over making someone's life difficult regarding that one point. No one's getting off scot-free. But I'm also sure she's really proud of her students for how they skated yesterday.

It's a winning moment for Stepanova & Bukin as well, don't get me wrong. Both these teams are having a great start to their season. They look honed & ready to go; and you can see some very definite improvements in their performance ability relative to last year.

 

[nimi]

Also, I'm sure Barbara is or will be all over making someone's life difficult regarding that one point. No one's getting off scot-free.

LOL. The commentator on my Finnish feed I was watching yesterday said that after the music mishap happened (I'm paraphrasing here) "Barbara was looking worried there... or shall I say FURIOUS" and I'm sure she wasn't any less furious about that deduction.

On the topic of music... The skatingmusicguy has interesting twitter commentary about how the music editing and mixing choices sounded like in the arena. E.g.

McNamara/Carpenter: 3rd team in a row to have music that's VERY tastefully edited but negligently mixed. Tonally dreadful in the arena, distorted like Motorhead remixed it, and one section in the second piece had surprise loud notes to make your eyes bleed.

Guignard/Fabbri: La La Land is extremely difficult to edit and mix for figure skating, so I'm very impressed that this flows really well and sounds great. My only gripe? The first note. THAT'S HALFWAY THROUGH A LINE YOU CAN'T START IT THERE AAAARGH

Too bad about the fall G/F had, but they still got their SB!

 

[GreenGan]

Finally some good FD at a GP ! (Except Gilles/Poirier's of course). I really enjoyed this competition. Stepanova/Bukin and Guignard/Fabbri fight is not decided yet. The deduction and the fall for G/F hid the fact that they should be first, not by much, but should be first now. We'll see how they fare in the GPF, if both qualifie for it.

Also Russian nationals will be very interesting. S/K have the best RD, S/B have the best FD, but Z/G are, IMO, the best skaters. I think S/B will be at worlds, but I can say who'll be there with them.
And what about Spanish nationals ?

We still haven't seen Chock/Bates, and W/P are returning for Worlds.. Podium at worlds still is unpredictable for me. I don't know how S/B and G/F will progress this season, but their program are just better than H/D's. Maybe I'm delusionnal but I'm not sure H/D is a clear second right now. And there is also G/P who are kinda forgotten because of their catastrophic RD at SkCan. Oh this is gonna be a great season

 

[MarieM]

H&D lost their silver with two badly choreographed programs. The RD is the worst. SHE should rock at tango, and instead, we have a ... loveydovey tango. And don't let me start on that stupid FD of theirs.

 

[VGThuy]

I never thought H/D were going to be clear second place finishers this season just because I knew other teams had the foundations to challenge them so long as they tapped into their potential and had good vehicles to support them. This season, it's looking like that may be happening. I do think as of right now, G/P are behind other teams in terms of SS and speed but they have such excellent vehicles that who knows what can happen. I still think H/D CAN win silver at Worlds and maybe by some way because they do have Montreal teaching them great basics that they are showing off well, but it's not a done deal.

 

[jtpc]

I think people are incorrectly equating Guignard/Fabbri's time violation deduction in the RD with the fact that there was a problem with the music initially. I'm just going by YouTube videos here, but to me, the issue is that if you start timing the program when they first start to move, and then you stop timing at their final pose, you get something around 3:03. The RD can only be a maximum of 3 minutes (2:50 plus 10 seconds). Since there is a 1 point deduction applied for every 5 seconds over the maximum time, anything in the 3:01-3:05 range would receive that deduction.

What I can't figure out is why their Helsinki RD comes up at 3:03, but their Skate America RD is only 2:58. It looks like they start moving at the same time in both (2 seconds after the music starts). Not sure how likely this is, but could the audio system in Helsinki maybe have been playing the music back at a slightly slower speed, lengthening the program a bit? It's hard to think of another explanation, since they didn't start moving 5 seconds sooner in their Helsinki performance compared to their SA performance.

 

[Deleted member 74551]

Am I misremembering or is there not a new rule about not awarding 9.0s in ice dance if there’s a fall or other serious error? G/F got quite a few 9.0s and 9.25s and 9.50s today- was that rule just a suggestion that ultimately got struck down?

ETA: Ah, misreading the communication- is it that you can’t get 10.00s if there’s a fall and 9.00s if multiple falls?

 

[Colonel Green]

As far as the scoring goes, Hubbell and Donohue's big advantage right now is the rhythm dance, where they've scored over two points better than anybody else so far, even if the free dance scores for a bunch of teams are hovering around the 120 mark.

If Hawayek/Baker beat Zahorski/Guerreiro for the silver at NHK, then you've got a potentially fascinating three-way battle at IdF for the last two GPF slots (the first four going to H/D, G/F, P/C, and S/B), with Hawayek/Baker, Sinitsina/Katsalapov and Gilles/Poirier all in the hunt, and it would very much depend on what ordering they end up in. Gilles/Poirier need to be second to have a shot, the other teams could make do with a third (or, if H/B come third, they would need to be second).

Conversely, if Zahorski/Guerreiro get the NHK silver, then it's still a question of whether Gilles/Poirier can take silver or not (they still outscored Z/G at their first event, despite the RD disaster), or if Hawayek/Baker can.

 

[Sylvia]

For those who'd like to watch/listen to the post-event press conferences in Helsinki, I've cued up Skating Finland's videos to the start of each:

Rhythm Dance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8ooHCqGaIk&t=16m10s

Free Dance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm-PakuSxRg&t=42m

 

[firstflight]

Dance Commentary Mini-Rant:

At the British Eurosport commentary through this entire event. Betina skids or goes off her edge at the start of the pattern on which they earn a Basic, and the commentator essentially says it's as sharp as perfection. The finale lift is ? in Hurtado & Khaliavin's RD, and the speaker says the second half is super strong. A bunch of twizzles get level 3s, all described as great. Lorraine & Quinn finish multiple points above the other teams in the RD portion of the battle for third: Carreira & Ponomarenko, Hurtado & Khaliavin, etc.; and the commentators decide to negatively compare M&C to Stepanova & Bukin? Also proclaim S&B clearly going to lead by competition's end before Guignard & Fabbri have skated, completely ignoring the fact that they were second at SA and have loads more senior experience than M&C and various World placements close to S&B. Drives me crazy when commentators miss the real stories and successes by mischaracterizing the battles in skating.

Just . . . a classic example of why I am so glad that I watched all the programs without commentary or in a language I don't understand first!

If that held through the free dance, that's just a complete miss on the context. Instead, they should be marveling that the US's 6th ranked from 2018 Nationals, and possibly no higher than 4th in the 2019 Nationals, is winning a Grand Prix medal.

 

[VGThuy]

I haven't like the British Eurosport commentary for dance since the end of the 2015-2016 season. Before they were sort of clueless in a funny, condescendingly adorable way, but now I find them a bit hard to listen to.

 

[firstflight]

Those of you who grew up watching Sesame Street, remember that song "One of these things is not like the others?"
Stepanova/Bukins' GOE marks on their last element:
+5 +5 +5 +4 +1 +4 +5 +5 +4

 

[believed]

Those of you who grew up watching Sesame Street, remember that song "One of these things is not like the others?"
Stepanova/Bukins' GOE marks on their last element:
+5 +5 +5 +4 +1 +4 +5 +5 +4

Same with the GOE marks on their twizzles in the RD
+3 +3 +3 +4 +3 +0 +2 +2 +2

 

[starrynight]

I think this Grand Prix series is a situation where all the teams are making their case.

Things like GOE and PCS grow with reputation.

So, I think by the Grand Prix Final, the teams that have made a big mark on the GP series will be viewed in a different light by the judges.

The established 'order' is currently being shaken up. I think it was probably a mistake if Gadbois thought that Hubbell/Donohue would have enough of an assured cushion to not have to stress over their programs for this season... which I suspect is what happened. I think they probably looked at the heavily depleted field and presumed it wouldn't matter much what they skated to. Whereas they really should have been doing a 'world podium bait' program (i.e. much like 'Oscar bait' in movies).

I think it's hard entering a quad as world silver contender because you have a giant target on your back and four very long years ahead of you with everyone directly hunting you. Hubbell/Donohue had perfect timing last quad of actually rising at the very last minute so it minimised the time other teams were targeting them.

 

[topaz]

Well, as a huge Madison/Zach fan I never thought that being world silver medalist would garner them some kind of "cushion". That has not been the case in ice dance in a long time, i.e that a the world silver medalist would have a cushion going into the next quad or the year after.

They knew this year would like any other year, they're still growing as skaters and in confidence performing up to their potential. Neither of these two have never displayed that kind of attitude. All of this assumption that Gadbois ran out of ideas for them and they're programs are subpar(this is not my assumptions I will add) because of some arrogance is just BS.

https://www.teamusa.org/News/2018/O...ohue-Ready-For-More-Starting-At-Skate-America

The nature of the sport is that it's evolving. There are many, many teams behind us that were watching us last season, and they want to be in the same place that we were in February and in March.”
This season, they are putting their spin on a timeless piece often used in figure skating: Romeo and Juliet. Hubbell and Donohue are using music from the 1996 movie starring Leonardo DiCaprio and Claire Danes. The pair looked at different music but found this to be a selection they agreed would work for them.
“We started from a clean slate, and we generally have liked to challenge ourselves with new genres,” Hubbell said. “Looking at the list of what we have done, we have never done a classic story that people already knew, that people had already attempted on the ice.”

Madison and Zach choose their own music. Period. Madison and Zach talked about how the song "kissing me" sparked something in them and they've never skated to a traditional love song or "character driven" free dance ever.

Per Madison Hubbell

Madison Hubbell and Zachary Donohue had always thought about incorporating some elements of “Romeo and Juliet” into their ice dance routine. “I think there have been a million beautiful ‘Romeo and Juliet’ interpretations,” Hubbell said. “But I think there’s something special Zach and I can bring to this with the raw emotion and absolute intensity that goes into dying for the person you love. So we’ll see where it goes”

 

[topaz]

I think this year is an exciting year. Madi and Zach's FD is growing on me after seeing it live in Everett. The program has more impact in public I love the changes they are making too.

I have always been a fan of Guignard/Fabbi. I think they should have been Italy's #1 about 2 season ago. Their programs are excellent this season they looked so trained at Skate America. I think their PCS should be slightly lower than H/D, but they are on par with H/D in my opinion. I think they were lowballed in PCS at Skate America and GP Finland. I think their pcs overall should have been higher than Stepanova/Bukin or the pcs scores reversed with the teams( S/B pcs 53.10 and G/G pcs @54.90)

S/B have an excellent free skate this season. Their RD needs some work but that can be said of many teams this season.

I am happy for M/C's Bronze medal. I felt they should have had the bronze at Skate America. They were just slightly better in Free dance than Z/G. But Tiffany Z has the "IT" factor. She's striking on the ice and a really good skater.

 

[Dobre]

I think it's hard entering a quad as world silver contender because you have a giant target on your back and four very long years ahead of you with everyone directly hunting you.

You go after number 1. All the fans of #1 instantly turn on you and hurl venom; but you go after number 1. If you think you're going to hold onto a podium spot and you don't look like you're prepared to go above & beyond in the attempt to chase down #1, then someone else will show up and go after #1. You may or may not get there. You may have to take more risk that leads to mistakes and costs you losses to other teams along the way, but you have to go for it.

 

[VGThuy]

I think this year is an exciting year. Madi and Zach's FD is growing on me after seeing it live in Everett. The program has more impact in public I love the changes they are making too.

I have always been a fan of Guignard/Fabbi. I think they should have been Italy's #1 about 2 season ago. Their programs are excellent this season they looked so trained at Skate America. I think their PCS should be slightly lower than H/D, but they are on par with H/D in my opinion. I think they were lowballed in PCS at Skate America and GP Finland. I think their pcs overall should have been higher than Stepanova/Bukin or the pcs scores reversed with the teams( S/B pcs 53.10 and G/G pcs @54.90)

S/B have an excellent free skate this season. Their RD needs some work but that can be said of many teams this season.

I am happy for M/C's Bronze medal. I felt they should have had the bronze at Skate America. They were just slightly better in Free dance than Z/G. But Tiffany Z has the "IT" factor. She's striking on the ice and a really good skater.

I think me and you are on the same side this year with ice dance. IMO, H/D’s Romeo and Juliet is becoming a very underrated dance. I mean that whole choreographic step with Madi shows how much they love the material.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I have always been a fan of Guignard/Fabbi. I think they should have been Italy's #1 about 2 season ago

Thats what Ive been saying.. Even last year their scores were too low.

Sprinkle in a dash of Barbara Fusar-Poli and how can you not make them World Champions!!!!!!