Love, Balls and Courting: Tennis V

Fan123 said:
Mary Carillo says Serena was a bully, Billie Jean King was wrong, and there's no double standard:

https://youtu.be/4HbTA-tDIaY
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Well I am sorry for Osaka....she will return beloved next year and boy does the crowd need to shower her with love after that night. Serena blew it big time. I suspect Serena has regrets though she may never admit it. No one wants to be thought of as a bully (well except for one orange-haired man.) Tidbits for thought about Ramos from "The Guardian" (apologies if you already read this):

"It’s not Ramos’s fault if he was enforcing rules that other umpires have not. But the penalties he doles out should be consistent.

Perhaps the most convincing argument in Williams’s favor is that historically, Ramos has had several heated disagreements with male tennis players — with different results. As the Guardian pointed out, Ramos has gotten into arguments with Novak Djokovic, Andy Murray, and Rafael Nadal and didn’t penalize them the way he did Serena.

For example, at Wimbledon earlier this year, Ramos issued a verbal warning to Djokovic for unsportsmanlike conduct, and it resulted in Djokovic complaining, like Williams did. But the warning was all he received:

Ramos didn’t antagonize the situation with Djokovic. In that instance, he let Djokovic release his steam and anger — the soft warning that Blake refers to in the tweet embedded above. But in Williams’s case, the penalties that Ramos issued didn’t reflect the tolerance he has shown in the past for male players.

To the Washington Post’s Sally Jenkins, Ramos’s behavior at the US Open was an example of Ramos’s sexism.

“At that moment, [after the point penalty] was up to Ramos to de-escalate the situation, to stop inserting himself into the match and to let things play out on the court,” Jenkins wrote. “All Ramos had to do was to continue to sit coolly above it, and Williams would have channeled herself back into the match. But he couldn’t take it. He wasn’t going to let a woman talk to him that way. A man, sure. Ramos has put up with worse from a man.”
 
Cachoo said:
Well I am sorry for Osaka....she will return beloved next year and boy does the crowd need to shower her with love after that night. Serena blew it big time. I suspect Serena has regrets though she may never admit it. No one wants to be thought of as a bully (well except for one orange-haired man.) Tidbits for thought about Ramos from "The Guardian" (apologies if you already read this):

"It’s not Ramos’s fault if he was enforcing rules that other umpires have not. But the penalties he doles out should be consistent.

Perhaps the most convincing argument in Williams’s favor is that historically, Ramos has had several heated disagreements with male tennis players — with different results. As the Guardian pointed out, Ramos has gotten into arguments with Novak Djokovic, Andy Murray, and Rafael Nadal and didn’t penalize them the way he did Serena.

For example, at Wimbledon earlier this year, Ramos issued a verbal warning to Djokovic for unsportsmanlike conduct, and it resulted in Djokovic complaining, like Williams did. But the warning was all he received:

Ramos didn’t antagonize the situation with Djokovic. In that instance, he let Djokovic release his steam and anger — the soft warning that Blake refers to in the tweet embedded above. But in Williams’s case, the penalties that Ramos issued didn’t reflect the tolerance he has shown in the past for male players.

To the Washington Post’s Sally Jenkins, Ramos’s behavior at the US Open was an example of Ramos’s sexism.

“At that moment, [after the point penalty] was up to Ramos to de-escalate the situation, to stop inserting himself into the match and to let things play out on the court,” Jenkins wrote. “All Ramos had to do was to continue to sit coolly above it, and Williams would have channeled herself back into the match. But he couldn’t take it. He wasn’t going to let a woman talk to him that way. A man, sure. Ramos has put up with worse from a man.”
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I think it's really important to be clear that Ramos' decisions, as the Chair Umpire, was whether to issue the code violations or not. He did not have any discretion over the punishment for each code violation, which is set out in the ITF rules. In the other examples that are being stated Ramos was issuing the first code violation, whereas Serena was now on to her third violation, and hence the game penalty.

1st Code Violation - Warning
2nd Code Violation - Point Penalty
3rd Code Violation - Game Penalty
4th Code Violation - Default.
 
skatingguy said:
I think it's really important to be clear that Ramos' decisions, as the Chair Umpire, was whether to issue the code violations or not. He did not have any discretion over the punishment for each code violation, which is set out in the ITF rules. In the other examples that are being stated Ramos was issuing the first code violation, whereas Serena was now on to her third violation, and hence the game penalty.

1st Code Violation - Warning
2nd Code Violation - Point Penalty
3rd Code Violation - Game Penalty
4th Code Violation - Default.
Click to expand...

Exactly the point. The media keep stating player x only got a verbal warning for similar behaviour conveniently forgetting that Serena was already on 2 warnings by the time her rant began whereas other players were on their first. And most times after getting that 1st warning calmed down. Serena did not. Ramos had no alternative at that point to award a 3rd warning and the lose of a game.

It really riles me when the media doesn't get the rules of the game right. Ramos is fairly consistent in his awarding of code violations to say otherwise is just incorrect and unfairly flames the public's opinion against him.
 
Lorac said:
It really riles me when the media doesn't get the rules of the game right. Ramos is fairly consistent in his awarding of code violations to say otherwise is just incorrect and unfairly flames the public's opinion against him.
Click to expand...

The media -- people like Sally Jenkins -- is well aware that when Nadal and Murray got their code violations, they were on their first strike. But if you are bound and determined to write a column about sexism or another hot-button issue, you ignore the details that don't bolster your point of view.
 
nylynnr said:
The media -- people like Sally Jenkins -- is well aware that when Nadal and Murray got their code violations, they were on their first strike. But if you are bound and determined to write a column about sexism or another hot-button issue, you ignore the details that don't bolster your point of view.
Click to expand...

People like Sally Jenkins should face some sort of sanction for shoddy reporting. It's almost like they are deliberately trying to ruin Ramos' professional reputation. I also think this is why Serena needs to admit her wrong-doing sooner rather than later and also issue an apology to Ramos. Maybe it will shut some of these people up.
 
gk_891 said:
People like Sally Jenkins should face some sort of sanction for shoddy reporting. It's almost like they are deliberately trying to ruin Ramos' professional reputation. I also think this is why Serena needs to admit her wrong-doing sooner rather than later and also issue an apology to Ramos. Maybe it will shut some of these people up.
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Another great post! I just watched the interview with Katrina Adams on CBS This Morning, and to claim if Serena was a man, a male umpire would have responded differently by giving her a "soft warning" or "just to knock it off". I don't buy it because Serena has a history of going crazy in previous tournaments when the umpires were all females! I'm beginning to think there's special treatment when it comes to Serena, unlike the likes of Cornet, Halep, etc.
 
Nothing much is being said about the coaching that was going on and how Serena denied she was being coached even though the coach admitted it and there is clear video evidence of it from these so called promoters of women's equality. Instead, let's try to bury this whole thing and Ramos under sexism. The coach is also Serena's ex-boyfriend so will the next argument be that he was trying to exact revenge as a male? :rolleyes:
 
hydro said:
:rofl: at the comments in here.

Wouldn't be surprised if one of you were the ones who drew this:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...on-receives-swift-and-international-blowback/

And if you didn't draw it, that's basically what all your posts about the situation sound like. Logging out now, don't feel like engaging with bonafide...well, you get my point.
Click to expand...

I had no idea that criticizing someone's poor behaviour, regardless of what race they are, could be construed as racism. I guess she should never be called out for unprofessional behaviour or for lying on the court. She should be completely spared of that by virtue of both her race and gender so that she can get a free pass on however she behaves. She should have access to nothing but special rights, special privileges, and special concessions rather than anything fair or equal.

I mentioned before that I've been a fan of hers for a long time (since 1999 to be more specific). I cheered for her over the years and admired her amazing abilities and accomplishments. I also admit that I've cheered for her extra hard since that time because she's a minority who was dominating in a sport that has been traditionally very white for many years. I brushed off her outbursts in 2009 and 2011 because I kept telling myself that she's a super-passionate champion who hates to lose and she simply misjudged the situation and lost her cool for a moment. It happens to everyone. But Saturday was the last straw for me. Baseless and false accusations are very reprehensible. I'm deeply disappointed and I've lost a lot of respect for her. And I would've felt that way regardless of whether she was Black, White, Asian or anything else.
 
hydro said:
:rofl: at the comments in here.

Wouldn't be surprised if one of you were the ones who drew this:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...on-receives-swift-and-international-blowback/

And if you didn't draw it, that's basically what all your posts about the situation sound like. Logging out now, don't feel like engaging with bonafide...well, you get my point.
Click to expand...

I am sorry but bad behavior is bad behavior. I think the cartoon was out of line especially portrayal of Osaka as white but why is lack of manners k?

Manners, composure, and good sportsmanship as Osaka shows aren’t a racial thing they are a universal thing and to give her credit as Serena showed during the award ceremony when I think she finally saw the consequences.

Please don’t get me wrong I don’t think throwing racket receiving violation makes someone the most horrible sport ever but if you chose to do so you face consequences. Serena chose to continue her tirade after second violation. Fine she gets emotional but it cost her but sexism racism really?

As a woman I don’t want the right to act like a brat. I agree men shouldn’t act like it either.

And why should it be okay to abuse the umpires soon no one will want to do it. I mean the pay is nothing and they get abused like this?
 
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For those who are still interested, here's a short video on the whole coaching thing. Notice Serena's glance to her coach (in the very beginning of the video) and the immediate verbal warning that followed. The same warning also came immediately after the hand signals as shown in the video. Also shown in the video is her coach's admission and her press conference on why she thinks Ramos was sexist, simply because, "I called him a thief":

https://youtu.be/5355p4wZpzs

As you can see, Serena was lying, and a cheater. She's so much better than this, very disappointing.
 
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Fan123 said:
For those who are still interested, here's a short video on the hand signals, Serena's glance (in the very beginning of video), her coach's hand signals, his admission, and her press conference about the thief comment:

https://youtu.be/5355p4wZpzs

As you can see, Serena's lying. She kept going and going with the lie and tirate throughout the 2nd half of the match.
Click to expand...

Don't expose the truth or else people like @hydro might call you a racist.
 
gk_891 said:
Don't expose the truth or else people like @hydro might call you a racist.
Click to expand...
Ha, it's ok. I find it so odd why Serena still insists she wasn't cheating even after being caught, after her coach's own admission, and even at the press conference, blame it on the umpire, unreal! Her coach needs to be fired. He obviously didn't expect to be caught, and made excuses for his irresponsible behavior. Temporary suspension to Serena should have been the right thing to do, with an apology. Nobody acts this way after 2 other code violations, and blames it on everyone but herself.
 
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Vash01 said:
What happened to Serena was sexism, without a doubt. I am glad that some other players are calling it for what it is. Billie Jean King had already tweeted her support, condemning sexism in tennis. In this article, many male players have said that they said worse things to Ramos, but they were not penalized; just warned.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/serena...be-the-grossest-example-of-sports-sexism-yet/
Click to expand...

In reading the article it is clear players were getting warnings but as it was the 1st warning that was all it was - a warning. Serena had a first warning as well - for the coaching incident (which did occur regardless of Serena stating it didn't ). However unlike Serena the players warned calmed down. Serena didn't and escalated the situation by first smashing her racquet garnering a 2nd warning and thus the lose of a point and then verbally abusing the umpire which garnered the 3rd warning and thus the lose of a game. All perfectly valid warnings.

The article you linked - and many others like it unfortunately - just miss out the explanation of the warning system and fail to point out that in most part the players mentioned were given first warnings so no.poibts or games lost.

It wasn't sexism at all just an umpire applying the rules of the game.
 
hydro said:
:rofl: at the comments in here.

Wouldn't be surprised if one of you were the ones who drew this:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...on-receives-swift-and-international-blowback/

And if you didn't draw it, that's basically what all your posts about the situation sound like. Logging out now, don't feel like engaging with bonafide...well, you get my point.
Click to expand...

Oh @hydro , @hydro , @hydro . Pulling that one are you. Unable to put forth an argument to defend Serena' s bad behaviour you instead attack calling everyone a racist hoping we all get offended and defend ourselves thus diverting from the original issue. Good try but it isn't going to work. Feel free however to explain what your thoughts are on the behaviour exhibited by Serena in that final.
 
hydro said:
:rofl: at the comments in here.

Wouldn't be surprised if one of you were the ones who drew this:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...on-receives-swift-and-international-blowback/

And if you didn't draw it, that's basically what all your posts about the situation sound like. Logging out now, don't feel like engaging with bonafide...well, you get my point.
Click to expand...
This is an example of the racism that Naomi Osaka is facing online and part of an exchange I had on twitter.

[B]us i am legend ( austin ujhelyi)[/B]‏ @[B]golf_fessions[/B]
FollowFollow @golf_fessions
More
Replying to @[B]daniellydford[/B] @[B]josemorgado[/B]
You only get there by rigging and bending rules yet rafas team coaches 24:7 never says anything but when black strong woman is playing he calls it out
5:51 PM - 8 Sep 2018
 
Vash01 said:
What happened to Serena was sexism, without a doubt. I am glad that some other players are calling it for what it is. Billie Jean King had already tweeted her support, condemning sexism in tennis. In this article, many male players have said that they said worse things to Ramos, but they were not penalized; just warned.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/serena...be-the-grossest-example-of-sports-sexism-yet/
Click to expand...

For the male players he warned for verbal abuse, that was their first warning unlike Serena who kept digging herself into a hole by getting a 3rd warning. You still seem to be suggesting that she should have access to nothing but special rights, special privileges, and special concessions. And you've completely ignored everything arguments that indicate that nothing sexist happened since Ramos has clearly handed out code violations to male players. You're cherry picking here.
 
gk_891 said:
For the male players he warned for verbal abuse, that was their first warning unlike Serena who kept digging herself into a hole by getting a 3rd warning. You still seem to be suggesting that she should have access to nothing but special rights, special privileges, and special concessions. And you've completely ignored everything arguments that indicate that nothing sexist happened since Ramos has clearly handed out code violations to male players. You're cherry picking here.
Click to expand...
It's clear some posters purposely ignore the facts repeatedly, and don't want to respond to them. They just want to read what they want to read.

Ramos has gotten support by many other umpires, and will be umpiring at David's Cup this weekend, so good for him. Some umpires may refuse to umpire Serena's future matches. Here's the article:

Tennis umpires consider forming union following Serena Williams storm.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...us-open-final-carlos-ramos?CMP=share_btn_link
 
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Fan123 said:
It's clear some posters purposely ignore the facts repeatedly, and don't want to respond to them. They just want to read what they want to read.

Ramos has gotten support by many other umpires, and will be umpiring at David's Cup this weekend, so good for him. Some umpires may refuse to umpire Serena's future matches. Here's the article:

Tennis umpires consider forming union following Serena Williams storm.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...us-open-final-carlos-ramos?CMP=share_btn_link
Click to expand...

Good for them. It's needed.

That being said, I do think there are some umpires out there who need to go. One example is Alves, the umpire who outrageously overruled a good winning shot from Serena in that match against Capriati years ago. And there were other blown calls in that match as well. Now that was a clear cut example of blatant unfairness.
 
gk_891 said:
Good for them. It's needed.

That being said, I do think there are some umpires out there who need to go. One example is Alves, the umpire who outrageously overruled a good winning shot from Serena in that match against Capriati years ago. And there were other blown calls in that match as well. Now that was a clear cut example of blatant unfairness.
Click to expand...
I agree, especially on the Serena and Capriati match! Some umpires need to go for sure for incompetence etc, not for sexism, etc. And don't get me started on the linesmen/lineswomen, thank goodness for hawkeye. Some of these errors are so blatant! I heard hawkeye will make all out calls, replacing linesmen in the near future.
 
Fan123 said:
I agree, especially on the Serena and Capriati match! Some umpires need to go for sure for incompetence etc, not for sexism, etc. And don't get me started on the linesmen/lineswomen, thank goodness for hawkeye. Some of these errors are so blatant! I heard hawkeye will make all out calls, replacing linesmen in the near future.
Click to expand...

It wasn't just that one bad overrule from Alves in that match though. There were multiple bad calls that went against Serena. It was a complete disgrace. I honestly think something was going on there. Just like I honestly think absolutely nothing was going on against Serena in Saturday's match.

ETA - Actually I sort of take that back. I guess I should've worded that last part as I honestly think something was maybe going on there. On the other hand, I'm sure nothing was going on against Serena in Saturday's match.
 
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Fan123 said:
Some umpires may refuse to umpire Serena's future matches.
Click to expand...
That's a good start. Too bad not all would refuse to umpire Serena's future matches. Serena's behavior deserves nothing less than the most severe penalties. If she can dish it out as childishly as she did, then she shouldn't be surprised by any umpire who’s unwilling to be her next verbal punching bag.
 
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