The Skating Lesson

[alchemy void]

Damn. I'm glad Tuk is responding back on twitter--TSL deserves to be called out on their bullshit.

So is Meagan going to say anything or does she only have an opinion about what Liza wears in her Instagram posts? I thought she was all about healthy attitudes toward weight and body image.

I have to admit I had the same thought too.

ETA: What a waste a time to keep up with a guy you can't stand (Dave), his FB page or his latest recap. He is what he is, and so are his guests when they're doing the TSL thing - and not likely to change. Puzzling, really, unless people just want to stay angry about someone or something - season, after season, after season, after... Maybe you should take this hostility and anger elsewhere?

I frequently see this reasoning from TSL fanboys: like it's a black or white issue, you either have to be completely boring and factual without personality, or you can be like TSL and "tell it like it is".

However, it is possible to be bitchy, gossipy, and have a sense of humor about figure skating without continuously resorting to making comments about weight, or bitching about the Knierem's social media presence... #cryinginabathroomingrenoble

TSL consciously decides to make these comments on a regular basis. It's totally possible to "keep it real" without making idiotic statements about weight.

 

[made_in_canada]

As a heterosexual man I find Tuk extremely attractive, masculine manners and all. And I'm pretty sure I'm not alone, so...she is just fine whatever Dave thinks.

It seems like you mean well but I’m so over women’s worth being defined by how attractive they are to men. Tuk is just fine the way she is period. No conditions of who or what find her attractive.

 

[Bellanca]

TSL consciously decides to make these comments on a regular basis. It's totally possible to "keep it real" without making idiotic statements about weight.

The thing is, I can't imagine this TSL group ever completely abandoning their ill-advised comments or idiotic statements regarding someone's looks or weight because they've made it clear that's not how they roll.

Even when Jenny was there, they freely discussed this topic. However, it is my belief that Jenny struggled mightily with that due to her own personal and well documented battles. I think she was a reluctant participant for the most part, but one who did take shots for the sake of the discussion. Although, I feel strongly that Jenny was completely torn and riddled with guilt about all of it later on. I do think this may have been just one of a handful of reasons why she ultimately decided to leave.

I agree w/ your fanboy example that it's not as simple as black or white, boring or bitchy, but I can't really see Dave & Co. suddenly changing their stripes because they are offending the crap out of everyone. I think it's more about their having a niche and providing an alternative view and angle, albeit controversial and polarizing to many people.

If I were that offended or ticked off, I would try to resist the offensive content, in this case, TSL's recaps especially if I found them to be that repugnant. I would figure that their targeted audience is not (aimed at) me, for example, and so I would enjoy the sport by visiting alternative sites that are available, comfortable and not so divisive - which for many, based on the reaction in this thread, is not currently being offered by TSL.

 

[bardtoob]

I can't really see Dave & Co. suddenly changing their stripes because they are offending the crap out of everyone. I think it's more about their having a niche and providing an alternative view and angle, albeit controversial and polarizing to many people.

Yeah, it's not like TLS is commercially viable. They're just amateurs, and don't resemble anything professional. I mean it is just a recording of catty comments on Skype.

 

[Bellanca]

Yeah, it's not like TLS is commercially viable. They're just amateurs, and don't resemble anything professional. I mean it is just a recording of catty comments on Skype.

? Yep, Yup, true, so true... So why continue to torture yourselves? We have posters here @ FSU who offer great skating blogs, skating alternatives and content free of charge and without the emotional distress and toxic side effects.

 

[Deleted member 53443]

It seems like you mean well but I’m so over women’s worth being defined by how attractive they are to men. Tuk is just fine the way she is period. No conditions of who or what find her attractive.

That's fine because I never said that. Not one word about her "worth". You have no idea how I value women. I'm so over with people finding pointless conflicts through their own political dogmas.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I want Tuktamysheva to win everything in sight this season.

 

[WillyElliot]

It seems like you mean well but I’m so over women’s worth being defined by how attractive they are to men. Tuk is just fine the way she is period. No conditions of who or what find her attractive.

What exactly in his statement said he defines a woman's worth by how attractive she is to him??? Come on, get real. You are far too sensitive IMO. Why should someone attractive to whomever take it as a negative that his/her looks appeal to someone? Women also find others attractive and say so, so please stop looking into a negative when a man says what he finds attractive physically in a person. JH on a hockey stick.

 

[oleada]

The thing is, I can't imagine this TSL group ever completely abandoning their ill-advised comments or idiotic statements regarding someone's looks or weight because they've made it clear that's not how they roll.

Even when Jenny was there, they freely discussed this topic. However, it is my belief that Jenny struggled mightily with that due to her own personal and well documented battles. I think she was a reluctant participant for the most part, but one who did take shots for the sake of the discussion. Although, I feel strongly that Jenny was completely torn and riddled with guilt about all of it later on. I do think this may have been just one of a handful of reasons why she ultimately decided to leave.

I agree w/ your fanboy example that it's not as simple as black or white, boring or bitchy, but I can't really see Dave & Co. suddenly changing their stripes because they are offending the crap out of everyone. I think it's more about their having a niche and providing an alternative view and angle, albeit controversial and polarizing to many people.

If I were that offended or ticked off, I would try to resist the offensive content, in this case, TSL's recaps especially if I found them to be that repugnant. I would figure that their targeted audience is not (aimed at) me, for example, and so I would enjoy the sport by visiting alternative sites that are available, comfortable and not so divisive - which for many, based on the reaction in this thread, is not currently being offered by TSL.

I disagree. TSL may not change but, as unprofessional an operation as they are, they still attract a lot of high profile people in the sport as guests and they definitely have rabid fanboys. If they say stupid crap like this, it should be called out IMO.

I, too, wonder if Meaghan would ya something since she associates with them, and this is a hot button issue for her.

 

[soogar]

Tuk is not fat at all, but her abs are not visible. Many years ago, I used to measure athletes body fat for a school project at MIT. I would guess that she is in the 20 to 24% body fat range. That is extremely low and healthy for most women. She is very fit..obviously she can land 3A and huge triples. However, the best women athletes are in the 15% to 20% body fat range. It is not a big difference. We are talking about 5 to 10 pounds of body fat. A lot of professional athletes are required to be in a certain body fat % range when they sign a contract. I am not shocked to hear Doug say she should lose 10 pounds. It is not the end of the world.
This is a sensitive subject and words matter since we have so many disorder eating problems in skating. I tend to think that Tuk would be even better on the ice if she were in a lower body fat % range. My high jump athletes in the lower body fat range all improved their performance when they lose the fat in a healthy way. If it was done via crash diets where they would lose their muscles, it was a disaster waiting to happen.

I don't know how anyone can guess someone's fat percentage by looking at them; especially since she wears loose clothes. Pounds does not correlate to fat percentage. There is a very interesting documentary on youtube about Mae Berenice. I believe that her weight when she stepped on the scale was 64 kilos which is substantial compared to the little Russians, however her fat percentage was 12%.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhxEljPQog&t=574s

Liza has a similar build to Irina Slutskaya who also looked "big." An apple shaped figure will look "big" around the waist even if the person weighs less.

 

[Amantide]

I have no idea what they said about Tuk, and I'm not even going to bother myself listening their bad recording. But from what I saw in the test skates, she looks fabulous.

I'm not even being nice, I am far from being a PC bull person. I a big fan of Football (soccer), a sport where fans and media are ruthless. In fact, the thing I hate about FS is the PC "culture", but criticising a person about something which is not even there, they do deserve to be called out for their nonsense and biased.

She is in great shape and I do love her SP. The only thing I don't like is those bended arms, but that's nothing new. The rest is great and she had a solid skate. Here is hoping she kicks some ass this season.

 

[giselle23]

This is just another way for the TSL to criticise Russian ladies.

Tuktamysheva shocked a lot of people by easily out-skating both Medvedeva and Zagitova (note I fully understand this was only a test skate so there's no criticism of either Alina or Evgenia from me). When her competitors fell, forgot sections of programs etc, there's not much to criticise Tukt about - so trot out the old faithful about her needing to lose weight.

It's just a blatant take down of a successful skater, probably prompted by envy. And politiks if there is a concern Tukt could be a threat.

It's just concerning to me that an active coach who works (CORRECTION - associates with (not works sorry) in a place like TCC (which I feel is boasting about being progressive compared to other camps) is the person who has started this dialogue.

But here we are, talking about this instead of her triple axel. Politicking mission accomplished.

It's just all the more ridiculous because right now Tukt is skating better than she has ever done and it's admitted that any weight loss would only be for supposed aesthetics.

Why have this conversation right after one of the best skates of Tuktamysheva's career? It doesn't make sense to then start talking about performance levels, because clearly she's doing very very well right now. Triple axels just don't happen for skaters who are not in shape.

From what I recall, all of the adult skaters who have landed triple axels have not been skating around on toothpick legs and there's probably a reason for that.

Anyway, here's a lovely interview (with English subtitles) of Tukt and her boyfriend Andrei Lazukin talking after the test skates https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg58bdMcG5o. She seems very happy and well adjusted. Lots of respect for her remaining in the sport and keeping sane despite everything I'm sure she's had to deal with.

I'm not sure it's Russian ladies, per se. I think Dave has always been dismissive of Tuktamysheva. He made fun of her "mu-mus" in her World Championship season and has accused her of using PE drugs (reprehensible). I have always liked Liza, especially when she landed her 3A. The 3A is still the white whale of ladies skating so I am partial towards any ladies skater who can land it.

 

[Amantide]

I guess you missed the point, guys. TSL talked about weight in the aspect of components. Judges give a skater component score not for what she does but for how she looks. TSL are always cheers for eating healthy if you listen them.

That's BS though. Judges give component scores to those who are consistent, whether they deserve those scores or not.
Furthermore, Liza has been around for ages, and if anything she looked in great form and shape here.
So, to make her weight the main argument now is utterly ridiculous and done in bad faith.

 

[rhapsody]

I'm not sure it's Russian ladies, per se. I think Dave has always been dismissive of Tuktamysheva. He made fun of her "mu-mus" in her World Championship season and has accused her of using PE drugs (reprehensible). I have always liked Liza, especially when she landed her 3A. The 3A is still the white whale of ladies skating so I am partial towards any ladies skater who can land it.

It's true, though? Liza herself has admitted this. While not doping since meldonium was legal when she took it, it was still technically performance enhancing... that's why the drug was ultimately banned by WADA.

Doping, no. Performance enhancing, absolutely.

 

[made_in_canada]

That's fine because I never said that. Not one word about her "worth". You have no idea how I value women. I'm so over with people finding pointless conflicts through their own political dogmas.

Maybe worth wasn’t the best choice of word but by saying she’d be fine because you and others find her attractive is problematic. And a pretty common attitude that most people don’t actually think about. How fine she is has no bearing on who finds her attractive. That’s my point. Feel free to clarify if that’s not what you meant but that’s how I read it.

 

[Bellanca]

I disagree. TSL may not change but, as unprofessional an operation as they are, they still attract a lot of high profile people in the sport as guests and they definitely have rabid fanboys. If they say stupid crap like this, it should be called out IMO.

TSL has that catnip effect on some posters and skaters; they can’t stay away for too long. To me, it’s a waste of time expecting a different result from those who are merely doing the same thing repeatedly and unlikely to change their course any time soon if at all.

If something or someone is causing such a rift, i.e., Dave and Co, I agree that they should be (are) called out and held accountable. What I find humorous is the predictable cut and paste response from the usual suspects that are outraged and beside themselves Every. Single. Time. TSL has something to say, irrelevant as it might be. Why do you think they push buttons like they do? That’s their M.O.

And, understandably, the athletes do not appreciate a negative, unfair attack, but to engage or exchange with TSL is like traveling down the road of no return.

I’m glad that Tuk did respond to them, good for her, but I wouldn’t take the bait too often, it’s not worth it.

Regarding the sport’s TSL fans and skeptics, I guess if you’re a glutton for punishment, TSL has gotcha reliably covered.

 

[soogar]

It's true, though? Liza herself has admitted this. While not doping since meldonium was legal when she took it, it was still technically performance enhancing... that's why the drug was ultimately banned by WADA.

Doping, no. Performance enhancing, absolutely.

They actually don't know what meldonium does and whether it really does affect athletic. Many of the Russians were popping it like a vitamin. There are a lot of substances on the drug list that are in popular cold medicines and supplements that are available OTC. I would hardly call any Russian doped up solely due to meldonium.

 

[Deleted member 53443]

Maybe worth wasn’t the best choice of word but by saying she’d be fine because you and others find her attractive is problematic. And a pretty common attitude that most people don’t actually think about. How fine she is has no bearing on who finds her attractive. That’s my point. Feel free to clarify if that’s not what you meant but that’s how I read it.

In a thread discussing a girl who had been openly attacked by being called heavy and manly, I supported her by stating my opinion that I find her attractive. I was not alone by the way.

My "she will be fine" statement was an answer to many comments how terrible and sad it would be to hear those words. And yeah sure, instead we could say that she will be fine no matter how she looks, I'm all for that, but in the context it made sense to say this. For sure, Tuk will be very, very fine whatever I think.

Compared to tons of comments from the ladies here about male skaters and their looks in the Kiss and Cry, plus tons of comments about teenage girl's dresses (see my signature) I think it was an innocent comment. If I got upset and political for everytime I read about hot young guys in the Kiss and Cry I better stay away.

People find other people attractive. That is a fact of life. Doesn't mean they give them higher worth as human beings.

 

[StasiyaGalustyanLove]

Compared to tons of comments from the ladies here about male skaters and their looks in the Kiss and Cry,

I just give thank's to Lord Above that it is "ladies" and not male's making such comments about the men of skating and they're bodies, if anywhere on this site male posters made sexy posts about other men my wife and me would both run faster then a dog fleeing from an Oriental restaurant!

 

[alchemy void]

prettier than the prize she-hog at the Socorro County Fare

Can I get this on a (deeeeep v neck) T-shirt please?

 

[MK's Winter]

They actually don't know what meldonium does and whether it really does affect athletic. Many of the Russians were popping it like a vitamin. There are a lot of substances on the drug list that are in popular cold medicines and supplements that are available OTC. I would hardly call any Russian doped up solely due to meldonium.

Meldonium is a heart drug. It was banned because it aids in muscle recovery:https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/309165.php

Tuk has stated she took it, although I’m sure it was given to her by a doctor- and honestly there probably wasn’t much choice in the matter for her. It wasn’t a banned drug when she took it but considering the benefits, it was certainly ethically questionable.

 

[wickedwitch]

Water is performance enhancing, too. Merely enhancing performance is not a reason to be wary and avoid something.

 

[caseyedwards]

But the otc brand everyone in Russia was buying is not really meldonium

Meldonium is a heart drug. It was banned because it aids in muscle recovery:https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/309165.php

Tuk has stated she took it, although I’m sure it was given to her by a doctor- and honestly there probably wasn’t much choice in the matter for her. It wasn’t a banned drug when she took it but considering the benefits, it was certainly ethically questionable.

It was banned because Russians were taking it in large numbers -FIRST! Then they did some research into it. They didn’t even know how long it stayed in the body because the main reason it was banned was because Russians were taking it. It doesn’t really do anything a good PED does!

 

[soogar]

Meldonium is a heart drug. It was banned because it aids in muscle recovery:https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/309165.php

They think it aids muscle recovery. There is no definitive proof that it would actually improve athletic performance.

Just a few weeks ago Ryan Lochte was banned for a trendy B vitamin IV infusion. https://swimswam.com/olympian-ryan-lochte-banned-14months-due-to-ivinfusion/

I'm in NY and it's actually an upscale fitness/wellness trend to get IV infusions of vitamins. Anyone can get it done. While Ryan has a lot of bad karma from his actions in Rio, I thought it was overkill to ban him for an infusion that gets urinated out within a day. Unless he was going to race the next day, the benefits of a vitamin infusion are a little bit more than ingesting a tablet.

 

[oleada]

I don’t know how taking a (at the time) legal supplement which may help recovery is dubious. You have to be kidding yourself if you think that athletes won’t do anything within their power to get a competitive edge. By all accounts, Tuk stopped taking it after it was banned and had never tested positive for anything.

 

[skateboy]

if anywhere on this site male posters made sexy posts about other men my wife and me would both run faster then a dog fleeing from an Oriental restaurant!

 

[WillyElliot]

Ew the s app

People find other people attractive. That is a fact of life. Doesn't mean they give them higher worth as human beings.

Don't worry about it. MIC showed how insecure she is, and that is her issue to deal with. You do not need her approval if you say something about what you find attractive in another person. MIC intentionally or not just wants to wallow in dispproval and offense. Again, not yours or anyone else's issue but hers.

 

[meggonzo]

Wow, some people have really missed the point made_in_canada made!

 

[Eeyora1]

Loving Tukt’s comeback!

I don’t know how much political clout Doug Haw has. But I actually sat in front of him at 2016 Worlds. he mentioned at some point accidentally wandering his way into the judges lounge and heard all sorts of stuff. I found him extremely knowledgeable in fact predicting almost every single score accurately . He also taught about Lutz entry’s. Interestingly enough he thought Ashley should have been second after the short program.

 

[wickedwitch]

Loving Tukt’s comeback!

I don’t know how much political clout Doug Haw has. But I actually sat in front of him at 2016 Worlds. he mentioned at some point accidentally wandering his way into the judges lounge and heard all sorts of stuff. I found him extremely knowledgeable in fact predicting almost every single score accurately . He also taught about Lutz entry’s. Interestingly enough he thought Ashley should have been second after the short program.

Being extremely knowledgeble in some regards is not inconsistent with being an idiot in others.