The Skating Lesson

[gkelly]

But isn’t that just a different coin of the same super femme presentation? Either be a bitch or be a princess; Madonna/whore crap. There is so much more women (and female skaters) could be.

To clarify, I’m not comfortable suggesting GG or her rivals/teammates are literally in b!tch face or princess mode on the ice or in their daily lives, unless they’re prone to that behavior, I suppose, but most of us genuinely do not know. I believe those words, b!tch face, and ice princess have been adopted for use in figure skating and ice dance to describe a particular skating style and not the actual person or their common characteristics.

Perhaps. I understood oleada's point to be that there are (or should be) more than two ways for female skaters to present themselves on the ice. Irrespective of what they're like in real life. More than two styles or kinds of programs.

 

[allezfred]

TSL is 100% spot-on about Tuk’s masculine aesthetic.

Well, not everyone can pull off a knock-off Oksana Baiul circa 1994 sweater. Oh wait, neither can you.

 

[bardtoob]

I am so angry about what is being said about Tuk.

 

[kappa_1]

I’d agree with that. While Jessica, Spencer and CO. Do have some sass at least they also keep some common sense.

Gymcastic, more or less, is a shining example of how to have a fun/entertaining/funny/sassy podcast about an artistic sport while still being positive and encouraging to all the athletes! Their enthusiasm is contagious, but they still manage to call out the actors in the sport that need to be called out.

 

[MK's Winter]

Holy crap, I knew Eteri did not handle the split well, but did not hear about this. She really said that??

Yes. Doug talking about what he witnessed during sessions with Brian was pretty telling also. IMO it was foolish of Eteri to write her off so quickly.

 

[Deleted member 53443]

I am so angry about what is being said about Tuk.

As a heterosexual man I find Tuk extremely attractive, masculine manners and all. And I'm pretty sure I'm not alone, so...she is just fine whatever Dave thinks.

 

[StasiyaGalustyanLove]

As a heterosexual man I find Tuk extremely attractive, masculine manners and all. And I'm pretty sure I'm not alone, so...she is just fine whatever Dave thinks.

Amen! Preach the Word!

Some times my wife become's sad when she hears that people say she is macho or man like, or even that she needs to loose weight. When that happens I all ways say to her, Bonnie you know there are many straight men including of course my-self who find that you are prettier than the prize she-hog at the Socorro County Fare and, every thing is prefect again.

No matter how many mean things get said by people about a gal, as long as that gal has real men who think she is pretty and favorable she ain't got squat to complain about in this big wild world.

 

[kirkbiggestfan]

Tuk is not fat at all, but her abs are not visible. Many years ago, I used to measure athletes body fat for a school project at MIT. I would guess that she is in the 20 to 24% body fat range. That is extremely low and healthy for most women. She is very fit..obviously she can land 3A and huge triples. However, the best women athletes are in the 15% to 20% body fat range. It is not a big difference. We are talking about 5 to 10 pounds of body fat. A lot of professional athletes are required to be in a certain body fat % range when they sign a contract. I am not shocked to hear Doug say she should lose 10 pounds. It is not the end of the world.
This is a sensitive subject and words matter since we have so many disorder eating problems in skating. I tend to think that Tuk would be even better on the ice if she were in a lower body fat % range. My high jump athletes in the lower body fat range all improved their performance when they lose the fat in a healthy way. If it was done via crash diets where they would lose their muscles, it was a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

TBH I agree that Trusova isn't artistic. But what skater her age is? I won't hold it against a junior skater if they're not as good artistically as someone like Carolina.

I agree. No one should expect juniors to skate like seniors - though many here think it should be the other way around - why don't seniors skate like juniors? I think the objection to scores like Trusova got last weekend is that she's receiving senior scores. The big jumps have lots of room for improvement. Everything else is rather ordinary. I don't think there was a straight leg in her entire FS. Doesn't have the strength to extend. Spin positions unattractive. Why are judges handing out these big numbers? There were the anomalies - Lypinski, for example. But since Russian Lyp there's been one 2 season wonder after another. The number of times people here have said so-and-so 14 yo was going to be the greatest ever.

 

[Deleted member 53443]

I know I am in the minority, but I think Trusova has some artistic chops, just not the one that means long, poetic edges and smooth movements a la Kostornaia. She has an edgy, kind of creative fire that draws attention to me.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Tuk is not fat at all, but her abs are not visible. Many years ago, I used to measure athletes body fat for a school project at MIT. I would guess that she is in the 20 to 24% body fat range. That is extremely low and healthy for most women. She is very fit..obviously she can land 3A and huge triples. However, the best women athletes are in the 15% to 20% body fat range. It is not a big difference. We are talking about 5 to 10 pounds of body fat. A lot of professional athletes are required to be in a certain body fat % range when they sign a contract. I am not shocked to hear Doug say she should lose 10 pounds. It is not the end of the world.
This is a sensitive subject and words matter since we have so many disorder eating problems in skating. I tend to think that Tuk would be even better on the ice if she were in a lower body fat % range. My high jump athletes in the lower body fat range all improved their performance when they lose the fat in a healthy way. If it was done via crash diets where they would lose their muscles, it was a disaster waiting to happen.

Doug Haw should be ashamed of himself. I have zero tolerance for that kind of statement.

I am reminded of Joan Ryan's book, "Littles Girls In Pretty Boxes", where one skater the author interviewed recalled how her coach thought she would look better losing ten pounds, even though the athlete herself performed better at the higher weight.

Also, the ice dancer Suzie Wynne detailed how a former trainer demanded that she lose ten pounds in a week, or else he wasn't taking her to the national championships. She did everything she could in seven days to get rid of the weight, basically eating nothing. The end result being, he weighed her, let her go, but never questioned how she did it.

I have also been a target of fat shaming, and I am not even a skater. One of my clients was an adult skater with strong ties in the local skating community. Every time we met to discuss the work I was doing for her, she would make unsolicited comments about my weight as well. I am a grown man, so I can only begin to imagine how that kind of treatment would impact a sensitive teenager girl.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I know I am in the minority, but I think Trusova has some artistic chops, just not the one that means long, poetic edges and smooth movements a la Kostornaia. She has an edgy, kind of creative fire that draws attention to me.

Having attended the JGP of Brisbane last year, Trusova was the talk of the competition. She has showmanship in spades, and really draws you into the performance. I love everything about this skater.

 

[misskarne]

I tend to think that Tuk would be even better on the ice if she were in a lower body fat % range.

Yes because obviously her speed and power and strength are suffering at point

Anybody who is telling that absolute Queen to lose weight can just fcuk right off because they clearly have shit for brains. She's strong, she's fit, she's powerful, she flies over the ice, and she can land a triple Axel. Anyone saying she needs to lose weight is just pissed she doesn't fit the anorexic waif "pretty princess" stereotype.

 

[bladesofgorey]

Tuk is not fat at all, but her abs are not visible. Many years ago, I used to measure athletes body fat for a school project at MIT. I would guess that she is in the 20 to 24% body fat range. That is extremely low and healthy for most women. She is very fit..obviously she can land 3A and huge triples. However, the best women athletes are in the 15% to 20% body fat range. It is not a big difference. We are talking about 5 to 10 pounds of body fat. A lot of professional athletes are required to be in a certain body fat % range when they sign a contract. I am not shocked to hear Doug say she should lose 10 pounds. It is not the end of the world.

I am sorry but this is such ignorant BS I just cannot even.

You can determine body fat percentage by whether or not someone has visible abs is one of the stupidest and completely wrong things I've read on this board regarding weight and that's really saying something. JFC on a pogostick. Have you ever seen competitive marathoners? They have some of the lowest body fat percentages ever calculated.

I hope you are not ever in a position to advise athletes about health/fitness because this is wingnut territory.

 

[Deleted member 53443]

KirkBF wrote a measured post about body fat percentage, which is a factor discussed in any sport. You can't compare the adult skater or people in general with world class athletes when it comes to discussing this. I thought Doug was saying it in a clumsy way, but body fat percentage is incredibly important for ANY athlete. Just as KirkBF pointed out, to try to lose weight without crazy diets but in a healthy way, eating enough and it's WHAT you eat that counts, so that you still build muscle is what hockey players, soccer players, you name it, do.

We can't just have a knee-jerk reaction that any talk about body weight means that ten thousand girls will starve themselves to death. That said, he should have expressed himself much, much more adequately and with more sensitivity (Doug, and Dave too for that matter).

 

[starrynight]

This is just another way for the TSL to criticise Russian ladies.

Tuktamysheva shocked a lot of people by easily out-skating both Medvedeva and Zagitova (note I fully understand this was only a test skate so there's no criticism of either Alina or Evgenia from me). When her competitors fell, forgot sections of programs etc, there's not much to criticise Tukt about - so trot out the old faithful about her needing to lose weight.

It's just a blatant take down of a successful skater, probably prompted by envy. And politiks if there is a concern Tukt could be a threat.

It's just concerning to me that an active coach who works (CORRECTION - associates with (not works sorry) in a place like TCC (which I feel is boasting about being progressive compared to other camps) is the person who has started this dialogue.

But here we are, talking about this instead of her triple axel. Politicking mission accomplished.

It's just all the more ridiculous because right now Tukt is skating better than she has ever done and it's admitted that any weight loss would only be for supposed aesthetics.

Why have this conversation right after one of the best skates of Tuktamysheva's career? It doesn't make sense to then start talking about performance levels, because clearly she's doing very very well right now. Triple axels just don't happen for skaters who are not in shape.

From what I recall, all of the adult skaters who have landed triple axels have not been skating around on toothpick legs and there's probably a reason for that.

Anyway, here's a lovely interview (with English subtitles) of Tukt and her boyfriend Andrei Lazukin talking after the test skates https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg58bdMcG5o. She seems very happy and well adjusted. Lots of respect for her remaining in the sport and keeping sane despite everything I'm sure she's had to deal with.

 

[Deleted member 53443]

This is just another way for the TSL to criticise Russian ladies.

Tuktamysheva shocked a lot of people by easily out-skating both Medvedeva and Zagitova (note I fully understand this was only a test skate so there's no criticism of either Alina or Evgenia from me). When her competitors fell, forgot sections of programs etc, there's not much to criticise Tukt about - so trot out the old faithful about her needing to lose weight.

It's just concerning to me that an active coach who works in a place like TCC (which I feel is boasting about being progressive compared to other camps) is the person who has started this dialogue.

It's just all the more ridiculous because right now Tukt is skating better than she has ever done and it's admitted that any weight loss would only be for supposed aesthetics. (Personally, I actually find it distracting when a skater's boots are the widest part of their legs.)

Why have this conversation right after one of the best skates of Tuktamysheva's career? It doesn't make sense to then start talking about performance levels, because clearly she's doing very very well right now.

From what I recall, all of the adult skaters who have landed triple axels have not been skating around on toothpick legs and there's probably a reason for that.

I agree with a lot in this post. Good stuff.

 

[starrynight]

Also just for a little size reference here is Medvedeva standing next to a soccer player who is 178cm tall and of average build.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BnjTW8elhSh/?taken-by=glushak8

These skaters are all very very small people. I think in the videos and photos people lose perspective of how little they all are because the photos are taken in isolation on the ice or in the company of other very petite people.

This is Tuktamysheva standing next to Radionova and Osmond (who are also very small people) also: https://www.gettyimages.com.au/license/624353608 Which might help inform people how petite Tukt actually is.

 

[oleada]

Liza commented on it on twitter

https://twitter.com/tuktikliza/status/1039654334869516292?s=21

 

[Mrs. P]

It's just concerning to me that an active coach who works in a place like TCC (which I feel is boasting about being progressive compared to other camps) is the person who has started this dialogue.

I don't think Doug Haw works at TCC, does he? He's friends with Brian and knows the inner workings. I don't dispute that perhaps he trying to hype TCC skaters because of his connection with Brian, but should we make the distinction that he's speaking for himself and not for TCC, no?

(That said, if I was Brian, I'd tell Doug to stop talking. I'm surprised he's even allowing Doug to say this stuff).

And all that said, good for Liza for calling them out with her wit. Her tweets are awesome.

 

[starrynight]

Liza commented on it on twitter

https://twitter.com/tuktikliza/status/1039654334869516292?s=21

Amazing. But I am sad she had to see what was said. That has to be hurtful, even for someone who seems to have a thick skin like Liza.

I don't think Doug Haw works at TCC, does he? He's friends with Brian and knows the inner workings. I don't dispute that perhaps he trying to hype TCC skaters because of his connection with Brian, but should we make the distinction that he's speaking for himself and not for TCC, no?

(That said, if I was Brian, I'd tell Doug to stop talking. I'm surprised he's even allowing Doug to say this stuff).

And all that said, good for Liza for calling them out with her wit. Her tweets are awesome.

My apologies - I misunderstood the association based on what I'd read. I've corrected my post.

 

[Willin]

If anything I think it is her weight that allows Liza to do the jumps and zoom. She's more of a Meagan Duhamel, Courtney Hicks, or Gabby Daleman type who relies on muscle to do their jumps as opposed to a skinny, tiny figure. Personally I like that strength - it's really exciting to watch her big, powerful 3Lz or 3A. I also think that for many "older" skaters having that muscle is key to sustained, healthy success, so I think it really benefits her to have that body type.

KirkBF wrote a measured post about body fat percentage, which is a factor discussed in any sport. You can't compare the adult skater or people in general with world class athletes when it comes to discussing this. I thought Doug was saying it in a clumsy way, but body fat percentage is incredibly important for ANY athlete. Just as KirkBF pointed out, to try to lose weight without crazy diets but in a healthy way, eating enough and it's WHAT you eat that counts, so that you still build muscle is what hockey players, soccer players, you name it, do.

We can't just have a knee-jerk reaction that any talk about body weight means that ten thousand girls will starve themselves to death. That said, he should have expressed himself much, much more adequately and with more sensitivity (Doug, and Dave too for that matter).

What's skating about, especially in the IJS era: looking like a beautiful balletic princess or landing the jumps and landing them well? It's about landing the jumps, and Liza could land the jumps.

Yes, body fat percentage is important for athletes and important in some sports, but it's far from an end-all-be-all of athletic prowess. There are many very successful female athletes who have more body fat than Liza.

And what's to be said that any "extra weight" she has (I still don't see any fat on her) is fat? To me she just looks really fit and muscular, which is exactly what an athlete should be.

This is just another way for the TSL to criticise Russian ladies.

Tuktamysheva shocked a lot of people by easily out-skating both Medvedeva and Zagitova (note I fully understand this was only a test skate so there's no criticism of either Alina or Evgenia from me). When her competitors fell, forgot sections of programs etc, there's not much to criticise Tukt about - so trot out the old faithful about her needing to lose weight.

It's just a blatant take down of a successful skater, probably prompted by envy. And politiks if there is a concern Tukt could be a threat.

It's just concerning to me that an active coach who works (CORRECTION - associates with (not works sorry) in a place like TCC (which I feel is boasting about being progressive compared to other camps) is the person who has started this dialogue.

But here we are, talking about this instead of her triple axel. Politicking mission accomplished. Doug Haw may be hoping the judges will now think of this when marking Tukt's PCS.

It's just all the more ridiculous because right now Tukt is skating better than she has ever done and it's admitted that any weight loss would only be for supposed aesthetics.

Why have this conversation right after one of the best skates of Tuktamysheva's career? It doesn't make sense to then start talking about performance levels, because clearly she's doing very very well right now. Triple axels just don't happen for skaters who are not in shape.

From what I recall, all of the adult skaters who have landed triple axels have not been skating around on toothpick legs and there's probably a reason for that.

Anyway, here's a lovely interview (with English subtitles) of Tukt and her boyfriend Andrei Lazukin talking after the test skates https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg58bdMcG5o. She seems very happy and well adjusted. Lots of respect for her remaining in the sport and keeping sane despite everything I'm sure she's had to deal with.

Dave loves the Russian ladies. He "adopts daughters" from them every season. Yes, his favorites change every season and he gets vicious to the ones he no longer likes, but he doesn't hate the Russian ladies as a whole. If anything he likes them most because he tends to like those who win, and the Russian ladies are winning. He probably is only insulting Liza (wasn't she his or Jenny's "daughter" back in the day?) because she either looks better than his current "daughter" or because she's not been doing well in the standings lately.

As for "politiking" I don't think Doug Haw could manipulate the judges if he wanted to. I doubt many, if any, international judges watch or have even heard of TSL. Those that might have heard of it are likely American or Canadian, so a great minority of any given panel. He's also not exactly in a place to influence his national organization. While Skate Canada might be different, USFS only accepts politiking from their current favorite coaches - aka those who currently have the most successful skaters. Since Haw isn't the primary coach for any top skater, he'd have to have some mighty fine connections to have his opinion heard, and even then I don't think he'd be able to convince the judges from Skate Canada, USFS, or any other federations to carry out his supposed personal vendetta against a specific skater or country. If they want to they'll do that on their own.

I would also argue that Liza does have things to work on. While her jumps are a thing of beauty her artistry and PCS is still a work in progress. Any low marks she gets there won't be due to politics. She generally minimizes this weakness well with music choices that fit her skating style (TBH that's one of my favorite parts of her skating - that she turns that weakness into a strength), but that doesn't mean the judges don't recognize it's a weakness.

Liza commented on it on twitter

https://twitter.com/tuktikliza/status/1039654334869516292?s=21

As much as I love her clapback, I think she should stay away from them. They love to double down on hating someone that dares call them out. I don't think we'll get a "crying in a bathroom in Grenoble" this year about Liza, but I expect they'll be a lot nastier to her from here on out.

 

[misskarne]

Liza commented on it on twitter

https://twitter.com/tuktikliza/status/1039654334869516292?s=21

QUEEN.

 

[barbarafan]

I don't think Doug Haw works at TCC, does he? He's friends with Brian and knows the inner workings. I don't dispute that perhaps he trying to hype TCC skaters because of his connection with Brian, but should we make the distinction that he's speaking for himself and not for TCC, no?

(That said, if I was Brian, I'd tell Doug to stop talking. I'm surprised he's even allowing Doug to say this stuff).

And all that said, good for Liza for calling them out with her wit. Her tweets are awesome.

It might have been better if Doug did not...especially as Brian is doing his best to smooth things over for Med in Russia and to make sure she has support there at all times Dave is feeding the trolls. All I have heard is what Eteri said...that she was texting Evgenia as it was time for her to get to the rink and start working on new season and was not getting answers. Evgenia it seems went right to the top..let them know what happened and then she wanted to continue still so was going elsewhere. She was very classy. Certainly Eteri would not have got answers from me either.

 

[zebraswan]

So is Meagan going to say anything or does she only have an opinion about what Liza wears in her Instagram posts? I thought she was all about healthy attitudes toward weight and body image. What a hypocrite she is to keep doing this ridiculous show with these sad middle aged men joking and gossiping about young girls. And do they think Meagan needed to lose 10 lbs and act more feminine, because she wasn't exactly willowesque, either...

 

[tony]

I don’t know about everyone else, but I actually prefer the muscles and legs that skaters like Tuktamysheva, Osmond, Daleman, Higuchi, and even Kwan had in her day. Liza doesn’t underrotate, she can do a 3A, and her 3Lz is absolutely glorious. There’s no reason for her to lose weight and maybe lose some of that muscle that helps her. I love that she clapped back— she’s in great shape.

IIRC, Jenny and Dave once went to town about Kaetlyn Osmond being out of shape and needing to lose weight in an early or pre-season video. They conveniently edited those parts out at a later date.

Anyways, Dave had the opportunity to edit this comment out after they finished filming and he chose to keep it.

 

[starrynight]

Dave actually steered the whole conversation in this direction. Initially, Doug was providing glowing feedback on Liza's lutz and you could tell by Dave's face that he wasn't going to stand for that kind of positivity for too long LOL

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I don’t know about everyone else, but I actually prefer the muscles and legs that skaters like Tuktamysheva, Osmond, Daleman, Higuchi, and even Kwan had in her day. Liza doesn’t underrotate, she can do a 3A, and her 3Lz is absolutely glorious. There’s no reason for her to lose weight and maybe lose some of that muscle that helps her. I love that she clapped back— she’s in great shape.

IIRC, Jenny and Dave once went to town about Kaetlyn Osmond being out of shape and needing to lose weight in an early or pre-season video. They conveniently edited those parts out at a later date.

Anyways, Dave had the opportunity to edit this comment out after they finished filming and he chose to keep it.

What made their claims even more ridiculous, was that the incorrect aspect ratio from that video stream made everyone from the event look really squat.

I agree with you about skaters who look really defined and powerful. Perhaps that is why I always had a soft spot for the likes of Mary Lou Retton. Crazy to think she was a Karoli student, but that's a story for another day.

 

[overedge]

I don’t know about everyone else, but I actually prefer the muscles and legs that skaters like Tuktamysheva, Osmond, Daleman, Higuchi, and even Kwan had in her day.

I prefer whatever muscle shape/size lets a skater do what she can do best. Please, let's not get into deciding which muscle or leg shape is preferable.

 

[bardtoob]

.