ISU Congress

[zebobes]

Montoya wasn't too far behind Stephane Walker at Europeans, so he (or Raya) might have still snuck in to earn that 2nd berth.

On the other hand, Galustyan would have likely earned a berth at Nebelhorn.

I think for men and ladies, where there are relatively more berths, the effect won't be as huge, but it will provide greater motivation for the lower ranked skaters to prove they are ready for the Olympics.

The bigger effect will be for pairs, where there are so few berths to begin with, that spreading the wealth among countries for initial qualification will be a net positive. I also thought it was an interesting point, that in this way, there would have been three additional countries eligible for the judges draw at the Olympics, increasing the pool of possible judges.

I'm surprised so many of the delegates had trouble following this, I thought Lakernik and Bianchetti explained it quite well - and like you, my first thought was wow Australia would have benefited big time from this rule for 2018. If I've done the calculations right, this rule would have seen us qualify three disciplines at Worlds, instead of just 1.

And then maybe if this was the situation we wouldn't have had so many people whining about US pairs, as Cain/Le Duc's 7th at Nebelhorn would likely have been enough to confirm a second spot. And as this setup means smaller country pairs picking up spots at Worlds as well, it's less inherently unfair than the suggestion some US fans came up with to just allow US to win an extra spot at Nebelhorn anyway.

And what do you think about the fact that Australia would probably have qualified for the Team event instead of Israel? Considering the fact that T/T weren't eligible for Ice Dance at the Olympics, the team they sent to the Olympics was much weaker than Australia's. And A/W season would have been much less stressful, letting them focus on the JGP, instead of having to squeeze in a trip to Oberstdorf.

 

[misskarne]

And what do you think about the fact that Australia would probably have qualified for the Team event instead of Israel? Considering the fact that T/T weren't eligible for Ice Dance at the Olympics, the team they sent to the Olympics was much weaker than Australia's. And A/W season would have been much less stressful, letting them focus on the JGP, instead of having to squeeze in a trip to Oberstdorf.

True, but wouldn't T/T have qualified the spot anyway and therefore Israel proceed to the Team Event instead of us?

Katia and Harley's season would likely have been less stressful, true, but it wouldn't have mitigated some of the serious flaws in Team Event qualifying, like their Senior Worlds points overriding their Junior Worlds points (even though the JW points were higher) or the fact that JGP, GP, and GPF results all counted for TE but JGPF didn't.

 

[zebobes]

True, but wouldn't T/T have qualified the spot anyway and therefore Israel proceed to the Team Event instead of us?

Katia and Harley's season would likely have been less stressful, true, but it wouldn't have mitigated some of the serious flaws in Team Event qualifying, like their Senior Worlds points overriding their Junior Worlds points (even though the JW points were higher) or the fact that JGP, GP, and GPF results all counted for TE but JGPF didn't.

With this system, the US would likely have qualified a second pair over the Israeli pair, which means that Israel would only have had two disciplines qualified for the Olympic Games, which means they would have lost their team event spot.

 

[misskarne]

With this system, the US would likely have qualified a second pair over the Israeli pair, which means that Israel would only have had two disciplines qualified for the Olympic Games, which means they would have lost their team event spot.

Ah, right, I didn't think about that.

 

[Dobre]

And what do you think about the fact that Australia would probably have qualified for the Team event instead of Israel? Considering the fact that T/T weren't eligible for Ice Dance at the Olympics, the team they sent to the Olympics was much weaker than Australia's.

You think?

Bychenko's performance in the SP of the team event would have earned Israel 6 points over Kerry's Olympic SP score had both teams been in the team event. The Israeli & Australian dancers finished back to back at Worlds & would almost definitely have done so during the team's SD. That's 1 point for Australia. If you use both pairs' SP scores from the pairs event, they would have also been back to back in the team. 1 point for Australia. If you use Craine's Olympic SP score, it would have finished two spots above Buchanen's. 2 points. Still doesn't catch Israel.

For sure, the Israeli team was weaker than it could have been with Tobias & Tkachenko. But not so sure weaker than team Australia would have been. For sure, Bychenko could have finished a lot lower than he did in the team SP and Israel could have lost to Australia. But he finished second.

 

[Marco]

I like this new Olympic qualifer rule, which is a good balance between per country rule (which I hate and find extremely unfair) and having skaters qualifying for themselves (which I love but don't think will ever happen if it means diminishing the roles of Federations and Nationals).

 

[SamuraiK]

Montoya wasn't too far behind Stephane Walker at Europeans, so he (or Raya) might have still snuck in to earn that 2nd berth.

On the other hand, Galustyan would have likely earned a berth at Nebelhorn.

Yes but you have to take into account that with this system boht CHN and ISR would have sent Han Yan and Samohin to Nebelhorn bumping down the other skaters. MAS, BEL and SWE would have qualified directly though, so who knows.

Galustyan , Craine and even Shuran Yu who didnt even make the LP would have qualified directly from 2017 worlds since KOR, ITA and KAZ only had 1 skater in the final. Im not sure if i like feds not making the finals qualifying directly.

 

[kwanfan1818]

If I understand the Olympic qualification rules, had they been applied in Sochi:

Men:

• China, Spain, and Israel would have earned one spot each instead of two in Helsinki -- Raya was 29th, and Bychenko and Jin were the only Men from ISR and CHN -- and Belgium, Malaysia, and Sweden would have earned one each outright, instead of having to earn them at Nebelhorn.
  • China, Spain, and Israel could have earned second spots at Nebelhorn.
    • Unlikely for Spain, which would have opened up another qualifying spot at Nebelhorn.
  • Belgium, Malaysia, and Sweden all earned spots at Nebelhorn.

Ladies:

• Italy, Kazakhstan, and Korea would have earned one spot each instead of two in Helsinki -- Kostner, Tursynbaeva, and Choi were the only skaters from their countries, and each placed Top 10 -- and Armenia and Australia were the only two from the FS who didn't qualify. Armenia missed at Nebelhorn, while Australia got the spot.
  • The next one in line, Singapore, was 25th. Would that have meant 23 spots awarded at Worlds, and an extra spot to be awarded at Nebelhorn?
  • Italy, Kazakhstan, and Korea could have earned second spots at Nebelhorn.
    • Unlikely for KAZ, which would have opened up another qualifying spot at Nebelhorn.

Pairs:

• France and Germanay would have earned one spot each instead of two in Helsinki -- Hase/Seegert and Esbrat/Novoselov didn't make the FS -- and Czech Republic and North Korea would have earned one each outright.
  • France, Germany, and the US each had a Top 10 team and could have earned second spots at Nebelhorn.
    • Unlikely for FRA, which would have bumped up someone else from Nebelhorn.
  • Czech Republic and North Korea earned spots at Nebelhorn.

Dance:

• France would have earned one spot -- Lauriault/Legac missed the FD by one spot and .67 -- and Germany would have earned a spot outright, instead of having to earn it at Nebelhorn.
  • France could have earned a second spot at Nebelhorn

Team:

• KOR had safely qualified Men and Dance at Nebelhorn, and Choi had already earned a spot in Helsinki, so KOR still qualified for the TE, with three solid qualifiers, and as long as they qualified outright, in the off chance that KOR was bumped into an individual host spot at Pairs, they could have been assigned to the TE. But all things being equal -- the US earning a second spot, but France either not qualifying at Nebelhorn or Gailhauguet not sending anyone (likely because he gave back the spot early) -- KOR Pairs would still have qualified on their own.

 

[SamuraiK]

If I understand the Olympic qualification rules, had they been applied in Sochi:

I think you meant Pyeongchang

Men:

• China, Spain, and Israel would have earned one spot each instead of two in Helsinki -- Raya was 29th, and Bychenko and Jin were the only Men from ISR and CHN -- and Belgium, Malaysia, and Sweden would have earned one each outright, instead of having to earn them at Nebelhorn.
  • China, Spain, and Israel could have earned second spots at Nebelhorn.
    • Unlikely for Spain, which would have opened up another qualifying spot at Nebelhorn.
  • Belgium, Malaysia, and Sweden all earned spots at Nebelhorn.

All correct but there's also the USA that only had 2 skaters in the final so Phillipiness will have qualified directly and the USA could have sent someone other than Chen or Brown to Nebelhorn to get the 3rd spot.

Ladies:

• Italy, Kazakhstan, and Korea would have earned one spot each instead of two in Helsinki -- Kostner, Tursynbaeva, and Choi were the only skaters from their countries, and each placed Top 10 -- and Armenia and Australia were the only two from the FS who didn't qualify. Armenia missed at Nebelhorn, while Australia got the spot.
  • The next one in line, Singapore, was 25th. Would that have meant 23 spots awarded at Worlds, and an extra spot to be awarded at Nebelhorn?
  • Italy, Kazakhstan, and Korea could have earned second spots at Nebelhorn.
    • Unlikely for KAZ, which would have opened up another qualifying spot at Nebelhorn.

Yes, reading the proposal (N° 211 on communication 2156) the new spots available can be filled only by ISU members who had skaters qualifiying to the LP, so no Singapore.

But there's also CAN with only 2 ladies in the final so that would mean 2 extra spots for a total of 8 that could have been earned at Nebelhorn.

Pairs:

• France and Germanay would have earned one spot each instead of two in Helsinki -- Hase/Seegert and Esbrat/Novoselov didn't make the FS -- and Czech Republic and North Korea would have earned one each outright.
  • France, Germany, and the US each had a Top 10 team and could have earned second spots at Nebelhorn.
    • Unlikely for FRA, which would have bumped up someone else from Nebelhorn.
  • Czech Republic and North Korea earned spots at Nebelhorn.

CHN again only had 2 teams so they would have to send Peng/Jin to get the 3rd spot at Nebelhorn and Australia would have qualified directly.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Many thanks for the corrections, @SamuraiK!

 

[misskarne]

YES! QUAD REPETITION RULE WILL NOT PASS!

Proposal has been amended to say that one quad jump can be repeated.

Proposal was accepted with 3 nos and 2 abstentions. Japan was the notable "no".

 

[GreatLakesGal]

And my fellow Hanyu fans have already figured out the perfect layout for him.

 

[levineismine]

https://twitter.com/sywtwfs/status/1004650242178838529?s=19
20 pairs will qualify for FS from next worlds!

 

[Erin]

So now I feel dense like an ISU member - in the 2018 example, would Canada have been able to send a lady (Chartrand, presumably, based on the rankings rhen) to Nebelhorn to earn its third spot also? Or can you only second skaters to Nebelhorn to earn a second spot?

 

[danibellerika]

And my fellow Hanyu fans have already figured out the perfect layout for him.

Yeah I woke up to a few of them.

 

[SamuraiK]

So now I feel dense like an ISU member - in the 2018 example, would Canada have been able to send a lady (Chartrand, presumably, based on the rankings rhen) to Nebelhorn to earn its third spot also? Or can you only second skaters to Nebelhorn to earn a second spot?

Yes if you had 2 skaters in the final with 13 or less points You can still send someone to nebelhorn to get the 3rd Spot. Not sure it would have worked for CAN though given the poor Shape of Chartrand last season.

But If You had only one skater You can't go from 1 to 3 anymore like KOR did in ladies for Sochi.

 

[clairecloutier]

Only 1 quad may now be repeated in a program. And only 2 triple or quad repetitions total.

https://twitter.com/sywtwfs/status/1004653363873452032

I really object to this rule, as I see no reason why quad repetitions should be treated any differently than triple repetitions.

 

[Erin]

Yes if you had 2 skaters in the final with 13 or less points You can still send someone to nebelhorn to get the 3rd Spot. Not sure it would have worked for CAN though given the poor Shape of Chartrand last season.

But If You had only one skater You can't go from 1 to 3 anymore like KOR did in ladies for Sochi.

Got it. And I agree, Chartrand probably wouldn’t have earned the spot last season. I more just wanted to understand the hypothetical.

Even though this new rule seems pretty simple in theory, I have a feeling that we will have many misunderstandings about it in 2021-22. Fans still get mixed up based on a version of the rules that were only in place for a couple of seasons in the 90s, so I have low expectations.

 

[Firedancer]

Only 1 quad may now be repeated in a program. And only 2 triple or quad repetitions total.

https://twitter.com/sywtwfs/status/1004653363873452032

I really object to this rule, as I see no reason why quad repetitions should be treated any differently than triple repetitions.

I agree. And this is going to result in programs that are just as sloppy as guys push themselves to include different types of quads, that many of them can’t do. Also, program layouts are going to look even more similar. As instead of choosing to possibly repeat two different quads, each guy (who can) is going repeat their hardest quad and 3A.

 

[kwanfan1818]

And what do you think about the fact that Australia would probably have qualified for the Team event instead of Israel?

???

The only spot ISR would have lost was the second spot in Men, but they still qualified for Men and Dance in Helsinki, and Pairs at Nebelhorn. KOR was on the cusp in Pairs, not ISR.

 

[SamuraiK]

So basically all the technical rules were voted as a whole package, that's why they had a previous discussion on them during the first day and that's why they made the ammendment to allow at least one repetition for quads, after the huge discussion on that proposal. Will this be called the Chen rule??

Other notable technical rules approved:

*Projection is now a separate bullet for the PE component.
* 10 in PCS is only for outstanding routines (Of course how you determine what is outstadning and what's not is still way subjective).
*The Grand Prix draw for the SP has been adjusted: Now the top 3 ranked skaters will draw in a sub group skating last in the final group, then the 4th-6th ranked skaters will draw in the first half of the final group and so on...
*Warm up groups for Novice dances are reduced to 3 minutes long.
*The skaters now have 20 seconds after a music malfunction to go to the referee.
*Half loops between 2 listed jumps now will be cauled Euler and will have their own SOV.
*Sequence jumps will only be considered when its a jump + Axel jump combo.
* No more requirement of the preceded steps before the solo jump in the SP.
* 20 pairs advance to the final at Worlds !!
* The solo jumps in the SP will now be predeterminated for each season (like in juniors). 18-19 : Flip, 19-20 : Loop and 20-21: Lutz. **
* The flying and change of foot spins in the SP will also be predeterminated and interchange each season: 18-19: Flying Camel and Sit CoF. 19-20: Flying sit and Camel CoF and so on..**
* Pair combination spins will be only skated in the LP and Side by Side Spins only in the SP ( I hate this one )
*Short dances are now called Rhythm Dances
* New Patttern dances: Tea Time Foxtrot, Maple Leaf March and Rhumba D'Amour (finally)
* IN Ice dance couples can not stay in the same place at the beginning or end of the program for more than 10 seconds.
* and of course men can now wear tights


ETA: (I got the junior short programs requirements mistaken, sorry )

 

[Seerek]

That

* The solo jumps in the SP will now be predeterminated for each season (like in juniors). 18-19 : Flip, 19-20 : Loop and 20-21: Lutz.

This is something that I've been hoping for in the beginning of IJS 15 years ago, however, the thought of a bazillion quad flip misses kind of scares me somewhat...

 

[SamuraiK]

???

The only spot ISR would have lost was the second spot in Men, but they still qualified for Men and Dance in Helsinki, and Pairs at Nebelhorn. KOR was on the cusp in Pairs, not ISR.

We have to keep in mind that CHN would have sent a pair to Nebelhorn in this scenario so the last pair (ISR) will very likely be bumped down therefore ISR only qualifying in 2 categories and also losing the team spot.

 

[SamuraiK]

That


This is something that I've been hoping for in the beginning of IJS 15 years ago, however, the thought of a bazillion quad flip misses kind of scares me somewhat...

I think that if a skater has a more reliable quad he will definetly use it for the combo instead of risking a pop/double on a solo quad flip and ending with zero points. But who knows, skater boys are crazy these days and they love to jump and fall all the time

 

[kwanfan1818]

We have to keep in mind that CHN would have sent a pair to Nebelhorn in this scenario so the last pair (ISR) will very likely be bumped down therefore ISR only qualifying in 2 categories and also losing the team spot.

But why ISR? They weren't even on the cusp, like KOR, at Nebelhorn. Under these new rules, CZE, PRK, and AUS would have earned the FRA2, GER2, and CHN3 spots, but they all earned spots at Nebelhorn, which would have opened up three qualifying spots there. It's likely that GER, CHN, and USA would have earned those three, but it"s unlikely that FRA would have, even if Gailhaguet had sent then, and even if they did, they'd have bumped KOR, which had the minimum of three disciplines without Pairs.

 

[SamuraiK]

But why ISR? They weren't even on the cusp, like KOR, at Nebelhorn. Under these new rules, CZE, PRK, and AUS would have earned the FRA2, GER2, and CHN3 spots, but they all earned spots at Nebelhorn, which would have opened up three qualifying spots there. It's likely that GER, CHN, and USA would have earned those three, but it"s unlikely that FRA would have, even if Gailhaguet had sent then, and even if they did, they'd have bumped KOR, which had the minimum of three disciplines without Pairs.

Um let's see if we apply the new system to the Nebelhorn 2017 Pairs Results

01. RUS (already qualified)
02. GER (not competing for spots because S&M were already at 2017 worlds final)
03. AUS (already qualified)
04. AUT (wins 1 spot)
05. GER (wins 1 spot)
06. PRK (already qualified)
07. USA (wins 1 spot)
08. ISR (wins 1 spot)

However CHN would have sent Peng/Jin to compete to get their 3rd spot and I think the odds of them placing higher than Conners/Krasnopolski would be very high so ISR will likely had lost the final spot available at Nebelhorn and also losing a chance to qualify for the team event.

 

[danibellerika]

* The solo jumps in the SP will now be predeterminated for each season (like in juniors). 18-19 : Flip, 19-20 : Loop and 20-21: Lutz.

Where does it say this?

 

[Rock2]

Why this overzealous desire to strip away or remove altogether the challenge presented by attempting and succeeding at achieving difficult elements? For what reason? And to what end?

To remain legitimate as an olympic sport.

#fasterhigherstronger
not
#lovelier #pointedtoes

 

[SamuraiK]

Where does it say this?

Proposal #260

 

[Deleted member 221]

* No more requirement of the preceded steps before the solo jump in the SP.

Why?!?!?! Don't understand this at all. Is it at least a feature? We should be cncouraging more difficult entries into jumps, not taking away the one example where we do mandate it. On the other hand, the judges never seemed to impose penalties for no steps, so maybe the ISU just gave up....

* The solo jumps in the SP will now be predeterminated for each season (like in juniors). 18-19 : Flip, 19-20 : Loop and 20-21: Lutz.

Look out, flutzers and lippers! Between this and 1/4 (on the line) being called underrotated, I wonder if we'll ever see a US lady in the top 10 again . I do feel for skaters whose non-preferred jump comes up in Olympic years. I almost wonder if it should be flip, loop, lutz, free choice (Olympic season) in four-year cycles.

* The flying and change of foot spins in the SP will also be predeterminated and interchange each season: 18-19: Flying Camel and Sit CoF. 19-20: Flying sit and Camel CoF and so on..

I like this, too, as it encourages more variations in spins.