American Women Used to Dominate in Figure Skating. What Happened?

[VGThuy]

I also feel the Men have pretty great skating skills generally speaking as well.

 

[ChiquitaBanana]

And how is edge work not a priority when the US has a strong contingent of ice dance teams?

I am not familiar with the exact training of singles skaters in the USA, I rely mostly on info on message boards and articles. However I am aware of what is going on in Canada, so my own reply was aimed more towards that idea. As for the rest, you can ask the poster whom I quoted.

That is said, great ice dancers do not equate great edgy si gles skaters, unless the ice dance coaches work with the singles skaters, like Marie-France Dubreuil, Tracy Wilson and others do in
Canada.

 

[starrynight]

I don't think it's really justifiable to run a sport where parents have to funnel in huge amounts of money, time and energy for basically no tangible gain and then not be prepared to even give the kids participation ribbons and instead seek to make the kids lives hard for not winning. Why would anyone want to even want to participate then?

The ruthless centralised systems in Russia have a steady stream of willing participates because there's funding and opportunities involved. But then whether you'd want to implement that in the US is highly questionable as demonstrated by the gymnastics program.

 

[Gazpacho]

This one I disagree with. Sure, you don't get the team life lessons unless you do synchro but there are plenty of life lessons to be learned in any sport even individual ones.

I meant team related skills. I know parents who didn't want their daughter to go into skating partly because they had the impression it encourages the kids to be self centered. I suggested synchronized skating which they had never heard of.

 

[aftershocks]

The silver lining is that it could have been worse for them, but it wasn’t.

Eh, it could have been slightly better had they all skated cleanly to their level. The only way it would have been worse was Daleman-level melt down, which was sad to witness. Realistically for U.S. ladies, it could have been 7, 8, 9, or 7,8,10 rather than 9, 10, 11. IOW, it should have been possible for all three U.S. ladies to place ahead of Choi and at least two of them ahead of Sotskova, but with Sotskova performing well and Choi being gifted in the scoring due to performing in her home country, Mirai, Bradie and Karen all needed to skate their best. Had Daleman skated the way she can, she would probably have been ahead of two or all three of the U.S. ladies. But I do not see anyone other than Daleman in the field below the U.S. ladies who are superior to them in any way. Even Choi scored better than she ever has with a tentative skate at that. The rest of the top six ladies were less likely to be upset in the standings even with minor errors. One or more would have had to make egregious errors. And possibly with landing the triple axel and everything else, Mirai had a chance to displace Carolina and Sakamoto maybe.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/owg2018/CAT002RS.HTM

Honestly, the judges were not going to do the U.S. ladies any favors.

I saw Bradie Tennel for the 1st time last night. Hummm what to say ?

Don't say anything until you check out her Skate America and U.S. Nationals performances, in order to actually see her at her best.

 

[oleada]

Honestly, the judges were not going to do the U.S. ladies any favors.

You keep saying this and I do not know what the basis for it is at all. What favors are the judges supposed to be doing? The US ladies did not skate well at all in the individual competition at all. Yet both Bradie and Karen had their PB in terms of components in the short.

Maybe they should help themselves and skate cleaner programs.

 

[aftershocks]

You keep saying this and I do not know what the basis for it is at all. What favors are the judges supposed to be doing? The US ladies did not skate well at all in the individual competition at all. Yet both Bradie and Karen had their PB in terms of components in this short.

Maybe they should help themselves and skate cleaner programs.

What I mean is that none of the U.S. ladies carried in enough reputation backed up by solid performances over enough time, and thus they all lacked political rep. IOW, with Mirai rotating the difficult 3-axel and falling (and the judges knowing she can land it), and then she skated clean the rest of her sp, she could have been scored higher than she was. I disagree with Mirai's PCS being mostly in the 7s in the sp too. Gabby faltered on her money jump in the sp, but she was given higher PCS than Mirai. I feel in some categories, they should both be on a par and thus their scores in the sp should have been even closer, with Mirai maybe edging slightly because she went for more difficulty. That was done in men's with Kolyada falling and placing consistently above Adam for the reasoning that Kolyada went for more difficulty even though he fell, a lot.

I know there's a rule for newbie skaters on the international scene to draw first for skate order. But come on with Bradie having to skate first in the first group. That's rock bottom political clout. Neither Bradie, Mirai, nor Karen had any margin for error. Adam had no margin for error either, as he dropped three spots with essentially two clean performances (with minor problem on a jump in the sp, and on a jump combo in fp). The judges took every advantage to ding Adam, what with Vincent and Nathan moving up in the fp. Adam's performances were steady but he still dropped due to being heavily dinged on a slight under-rotation on one jump in the triple jumping pass. And Adam never receives proper credit for his choreo and interpretation. Kolyada's unfocused programs were scored in the same ballpark as Adam's even with Kolyada's lack of cohesion and poor performance level! This is what I'm talking about, and you don't have to agree or like what I'm saying.

Meanwhile, Kaetlyn, who in my book is better than the Russians in many aspects has often received gentle handling from judges (and light criticism from fans) for her nervous inconsistencies. Conversely, Gracie Gold was raked over coals every time she messed up.

 

[mag]

I know there's a rule for newbie skaters on the international scene to draw first for skate order. But come on with Bradie having to skate first in the first group. That's rock bottom political clout.

No, that is what you call a random draw. This has been reviewed already in a thread you have both read and replied in. There was nothing suspicious about Bradie’s draw. She could have been anywhere in the first half and just happened to draw first.

As for Adam and Kolyada, Kolyada has better Skating skills, more speed, and more one footed skating. Adam chose a strategy that would appeal to the casual American viewer who does not, it seems, like skaters to fall. By choosing that strategy he limited the total points he could receive, but at the same time backstopped how far down in the rankings he could fall. It was a good strategy for Adam given his strengths and weaknesses, but please let’s remember that was his choice.

 

[TheGirlCanSkate]

Kids learn to work cooperatively all the time - group projects, class discussions, Socratic seminars, math teams, science teams, school sports. My daughter did synchro - went to nationals and had a good time and learned more skills about caring for herself and being responsible for choosing her meals, not losing her possessions and how to represent a team (I did not travel, so she had an interesting experience). On synchro, the coaches drive change, write the programs and plan everything else - even handle conflicts. It's not like a neighborhood ball game where kids make the plays and handle differences make up and show up the next day to try again.

Skaters who are single skaters, who plug away at the sport knowing they aren't going to sectionals have to learn to count on themselves to get through tough times.

One type of athlete isn't better, they are just different.

I think the only thing wrong with skating, is the cost and maybe... the schedule.

 

[aftershocks]

No, that is what you call a random draw. This has been reviewed already in a thread you have both read and replied in. There was nothing suspicious about Bradie’s draw. She could have been anywhere in the first half and just happened to draw first.

As for Adam and Kolyada, Kolyada has better Skating skills, more speed, and more one footed skating. Adam chose a strategy that would appeal to the casual American viewer who does not, it seems, like skaters to fall. By choosing that strategy he limited the total points he could receive, but at the same time backstopped how far down in the rankings he could fall. It was a good strategy for Adam given his strengths and weaknesses, but please let’s remember that was his choice.

We see this differently. I know it was a random draw. It's really weird though how some of those draws pan out, or exactly how they are conducted for all the groups. Again, I know it's random, but the draws apparently are done within a group and however they are done, it's possible for some manipulation if it's done manually. I'm sure there are certain rules that are followed. Bradie was being respected in general by the judges since she's U.S. champion, and because she's clearly better than many of the ladies in those initial three earlier groups. It's still rotten luck, and the three U.S. ladies still had no margin for error, and less political rep backing. Every reason can be given in the book that the judges aren't favoring some skaters over others, but it's a fact that some skaters have more margin for error than others, and that politics is a huge part of the scoring, and that PCS scores are manipulated. Usually, the placements fall out reasonably except for one or more eyebrow-raising results, but always the PCS scores tend to be WTF if you examine them closely. Figure Skating 101.

Kolyada's Elvis program does not suit him, and whatever gorgeous skating skills and musicality Kolyada has was not fully on display. His mind actually seemed to be in Siberia. I do not think he deserved such high scores for his consistently poor performances at these games. I've loved Kolyada's skating since I first saw him as a junior, but please, he needs to pull himself together. Russian skaters are often given gift scores for their 'superior' potential, even with errors. Adam Rippon obviously does not have the best SS, but his composition and musical interpretation should be in the mid to high 9s and NEVER are. They've kept Adam in the high eight range on those components and that's simply not fair judging! He's worked his a$$ off trying to get the quad and he's officially landed two in competition. His programs are way more memorable than those of a slew of quadsters, and he should be rewarded for where he excels! But, it's too late now. And the sport of figure skating is bankrupt and politically corrupt. Carry on, business as usual.

 

[giselle23]

The US doesn't need more girls going into skating. The path to the top is extremely narrow. More participants just means more girls who won't make it. What the US needs are a few exceptional talents and the ability to identify and support them.

 

[giselle23]

I would hazard a guess and say the elimination of figures in competitions is also a reason. In North American, it seems that once you can stand, you're taught to jump. Glide, edge control, all those are not taken as seriously as they once were in "figure" skating. You watch the old school skaters (ie. the likes of Scott H., Katia G., Kat Witt, Roz Summers, etc.), they had a great ability to move on the ice, not just jump.

You don't think jumping is the most important thing in Russia and everywhere else?

 

[OwenEvans]

I wouldn't put Lipinski on that list. I'd rather have a long constitstant career that maybe doesn't include an Olympic Gold, than a 15th and 1st at Worlds, no GP golds, only one National gold out of three tries and only one Olympic gold. Her career was that stellar in the grand scheme of things. Same with Sarah Hughes.

It's ok, but it's only on one year from Feb 97-98. I'd rather have a career that lasts 5-10+ years with more competitions and more medals. Like Michelle Kwan, she may not have an Olympic gold but in her case I'd rather have her career with bronze and silver than a gold. Much more consistent of a skater and competitor.

I nearly fell off my chair when I read these posts. Please share with us your career highlights so we can gauge your credentials to casually diss a National, World and Olympic Champion.

"Plenty" of times?? Exactly four, if I am not forgetting something major. 97 Nationals, 96-97 Champion Series final, 97 Worlds, 98 Olympics. Three of those wins were in a time span of about four months during which Kwan was struggling hardcore and Tara was carrying rolling momentum, and in only one of the four wins over Michelle did she manage to win both portions of the competition en route to the title (Champion Series final). She was second to Kwan in the SP at 97 Nationals, second to Kwan in the LP at 97 Worlds, and second to Kwan in the SP at 98 Olys. Meanwhile, in the events during the same time period that Kwan beat Lipinski, she basically trounced her in both segments of the competition and it wasn't even close (97 Skate America and 98 Nationals).

So yes, I would personally still definitely write Lipinski off, not as a "one-hit" wonder perhaps, but as pretty much a one-season wonder for sure. Hughes, to me, had a stronger career because she was able to gain success over time and showed that she had more longevity than one year.

More blah, blah, blah.

I'm sure Michelle sleeps soundly of a night knowing she has such ardent defenders of her legacy. /s

 

[giselle23]

She has two GPF golds I think that should count. She won every major comp but Four Continents and top US skaters didn't go there.

Not sure what the point is about 5 world titles. Who knows if Kwan would have stayed in that long if she had OGM.

The main thing is it would not be fair to write Tara off as one hit wonder. She beat Kwan plenty of times in her small career.

Tara won the Championship series in 1997-98 (no GPF then) when Michelle was recovering from an injury. She was essentially a one season wonder. Her only big win in 97-98 was at the Olympics. She stopped competing after that, probably because she didn't want to face Kwan again. Permanent injury was also a price she paid for her OGM. Few put her on their lists of all-time greats because of the brevity of her career.

 

[jenniferlyon]

The ruthless centralised systems in Russia have a steady stream of willing participates because there's funding and opportunities involved. But then whether you'd want to implement that in the US is highly questionable as demonstrated by the gymnastics program.

Many of the Russian skaters also grew up in poverty. In that sense, they are more akin to the typical American basketball player than the typical American skater. I don't remember the exact quote, but I remember at one time Mishin compared his skaters to hungry dogs. For a Russian skater, this sport is a ticket to the good life. During the 1990s skating boom, the Russians had to come here to make money, but now they have professional opportunities in their own country.

American figure skaters, by contrast, generally come from the upper-middle class. Instead of giving the skater and the skater's family a better life, this sport drains their finances. As others have pointed out, there are no college scholarships. In terms of professional skating opportunities, there's Stars On Ice, Disney On Ice, and cruise ships. An American skater's best bet is to cultivate a Japanese fan base and seek work over there. Of course, the uber wealthy in this country can afford the best of everything for their young skaters. But the kids with the talent and the kids with a rich daddy aren't necessarily the same ones.

 

[jenniferlyon]

What I mean is that none of the U.S. ladies carried in enough reputation backed up by solid performances over enough time, and thus they all lacked political rep.

The U.S. has a female skater who won the silver at Worlds just two short years ago. But the judges at Nationals, in their infinite wisdom, awarded her with lower program component scores than the self-choreographed Karen Chen and an unknown 19-going-on-20-year-old who skated to Disney princess music. Thus, the one U.S. lady who would have earned rep points from an international judging panel spent the Olympics doing Toyota promotions instead of competing on the ice.

 

[Sylvia]

Time for Christine Brennan to toss in her two cents: https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...estions-what-wants-winter-olympics/369788002/

U.S. Olympic coach Audrey Weisiger, founder and president of Grassroots to Champions, a consulting company that develops young skaters, believes U.S. coaches and skaters should find a way to work together for the common good.
“We need more group training for skaters, and we need to get to them earlier,” she said in a phone interview Saturday from her home in the Washington, D.C., suburbs. “Instead of reaching the 15-16-year-olds, we should be looking at the 10-14-year-olds. They don’t have to be the ones who are winning every competition yet. You want to help them on their way. You want to start checking to see how they’re physically developing, help them with the appropriate nutrition information, encourage them to take ballet, that kind of thing. And if they all do it together, it’s a lot more fun.”

 

[starrynight]

Many of the Russian skaters also grew up in poverty.

American figure skaters, by contrast, generally come from the upper-middle class. Instead of giving the skater and the skater's family a better life, this sport drains their finances.

I think that is a pretty good assessment of the situation.

 

[Anyasnake]

The way I see it with the current US Olympian Ladies :

Karen Chen : great skating skills, technical good, big lack of consistency
Bradie Tennell : good Skating skills (I read some live reports saying that it's better than on video), very good technical, consistent but unfortunately not at this particular competition
Mirai Nagasu : great Technical, good skating skills, big lack of consistency

All of them are missing something compared to the one above them.

Carolina and Satoko have some incredible material but the skating skills and performance commitment to go with it.
Kaetlyn isn't the most consistent, but her basics are vey good (thus, will never leave her) and her jumps are huge.
Kaori and Alina have the best jumps of the field and the latter has the stamina to be strategic in both SP the FS.
Evgenia is very consistent and this year really developp into her programs - total package.

Have you noticed how well Japanese skaters skate ? Or Canadians ? There is some basics that might be overlooked by others. But the Russian Ladies compensate with monstruous technical abilities.

So I see US journalists complaining about how Russian are backloading etc, truth is none of the US Ladies today has the technical or artistry of an Evgenia or Alina, the latter being criticized for no artistry at all. Boy, hit the jumps and steps on the music notes like she does on her programs, and then we can talk. Her Swan Lake was AMAZING.

Also there is not 10 Michelle Kwan per generations. The same way Russia doesn't have 10 Grishuk/Platov and lost their all-time best nation status in Ice Dance for North America.

Also, those who have daughters that are skaters, or who know young girls skating in the US : why did they start ? Because the reason might has to do a lot with the outcome. Maybe.

 

[ChiquitaBanana]

Many of the Russian skaters also grew up in poverty. In that sense, they are more akin to the typical American basketball player than the typical American skater.

The life has changed in Russia, you read more and more that parents want to be overinvolved in their kids skating and that skating costs a lot (I guess compared to before).
However, it is not always the case. In this video https://youtu.be/YuBsOOGDL0E?t=635, you hear Zagitova crying and saying if she achieves something in the sports, it will help the family, all of this (training, suffering) won’t be in vain.

 

[sk9tingfan]

However, it is not always the case. In this video https://youtu.be/YuBsOOGDL0E?t=635, you hear Zagitova crying and saying if she achieves something in the sports, it will help the family, all of this (training, suffering) won’t be in vain.

That money may have to be plowed into her potentially not too distant future for multiple hip surgeries including a premature replacement

 

[sk9tingfan]

Also, those who have daughters that are skaters, or who know young girls skating in the US : why did they start ? Because the reason might has to do a lot with the outcome. Maybe.

The economic analysis technique, a recursive model, comes to mind. It looks at the cyclic phenomena that occur based on rewards/demand in prior periods and gaps in available supply. The last one I looked at many years ago was one that analyzed the supply of engineers! Never thought that I would associate it with figure skating. Sorry for getting overly geeky.

Right now in the US, men's figure skating is seeing a resurgence and if more profound, ice dancing.

 

[Anyasnake]

The economic analysis technique, a recursive model, comes to mind. It looks at the cyclic phenomena that occur based on rewards/demand in prior periods and gaps in available supply. The last one I looked at many years ago was one that analyzed the supply of engineers! Never thought that I would associate it with figure skating. Sorry for getting overly geeky.

Right now in the US, men's figure skating is seeing a resurgence and if more profound, ice dancing.

While there are no gaps, perhaps too many, Ice Dancers in the US today, if we see know a resurgence in Men's figure skating, it normally takes years to make a champion. Although, Nathan and Vincent can carry it very well.

The gap in Ladies FS is noticeable though because it might take more years. And what about pairs ? Do the #2, #3, #4 ranked pairs plan on carrying on ? Because K/O and C/LD are very promising if they work hard and it's going to be painful. But rewarding.

 

[VGThuy]

The U.S. has a female skater who won the silver at Worlds just two short years ago. But the judges at Nationals, in their infinite wisdom, awarded her with lower program component scores than the self-choreographed Karen Chen and an unknown 19-going-on-20-year-old who skated to Disney princess music. Thus, the one U.S. lady who would have earned rep points from an international judging panel spent the Olympics doing Toyota promotions instead of competing on the ice.

Well, I for one am glad a big name wasn't held up for once just based on her past rep just to see her place 7th-8th at best at the Olympics. Plus now her fans can imagine her repeating her Worlds silver medal at the Olympics since she didn't compete here to actually have to compete to do it.

 

[Spun Silver]

American figure skaters, by contrast, generally come from the upper-middle class. .

Interesting generalization. It doesn't apply to Kwan, Harding, Galindo, Nagasu, Nathan Chen, Zhou, Tennell, Wagner, Starr Andrews, at least two prominent juniors at 2018 Nats with touching immigrant stories... for starters.

 

[Bellanca]

Is it really the end of the world that an American lady has not been on an Olympic podium lately? I guess so...

 

[berthesghost]

Interesting generalization. It doesn't apply to Kwan, Harding, Galindo, Nagasu, Nathan Chen, Zhou, Tennell, Wagner, Starr Andrews, at least two prominent juniors at 2018 Nats with touching immigrant stories... for starters.

It's hard to say without knowing what context Jen meant it in. Are we just talking about skaters who medal at nats, or are we talking about all those skaters who work hard for years and end up 4th at regionals? In the larger context it might actually be true because who else could afford such an expensive hobby.

Is it really the end of the world that an American lady has not been on an Olympic podium lately? I guess so...

Who's world are we talking about? Was it the end of my world when coke changed its recipe and came in second to Pepsi in sales? No, but I'm sure it mattered to coke.
The US gov spends billions on promoting oly sports, not to mention corporations who buy tv rights, advertisement, etc based on skating's popularity, so yeah, I doubt anyone at usfs slept well the night after the ladies LP.

 

[Spun Silver]

It's hard to say without knowing what context Jen meant it in. Are we just talking about skaters who medal at nats, or are we talking about all those skaters who work hard for years and end up 4th at regionals? In the larger context it might actually be true because who else could afford such an expensive hobby. Who's world are we talking about? Was it the end of my world when coke changed its recipe and came in second to Pepsi in sales? No, but I'm sure it mattered to coke.
The US gov spends billions on promoting oly sports, not to mention corporations who buy tv rights, advertisement, etc based on skating's popularity, so yeah, I doubt anyone at usfs slept well the night after the ladies LP.

Does it really matter if most are UPPER middle class if many/half/most of those who rise to the top are not?

 

[berthesghost]

I assume it only matters in the context of pool to draw from. The more people who skate, the greater the chance of finding great talent.

 

[becca]

I assume it only matters in the context of pool to draw from. The more people who skate, the greater the chance of finding great talent.

Yep. I also think skating is more popular in Russia. I remember reading on gymnastics board that artistic gymnastics is kind of like boxing there not super popular parents want daughters in skating, ballet, rhythmic gymnastics.