First time Ever Russians have no Ice Dance medal! Reform suggestions?

[judgejudy27]

Russian ice dance has been in deep decline a long time before now. It being the first Olympics they didnt medal is mainly a fluke. Domnina & Shabalin were lucky to medal at all in Vancouver, and I&K had basically their only good senior competition ever together to medal (probably also aided by home country scoring to some extent) to medal despite almost no world medals for Russia from 2010-2018. I am not sure what the problem is, but they arent producting teams of top quality anymore. A team like Bobrova & Soloviev as basically their #1 team for 8 years is pretty much a joke, with all due respect to them.

 

[Katha]

Russian ice dance has been in deep decline a long time before now. It being the first Olympics they didnt medal is mainly a fluke. Domnina & Shabalin were lucky to medal at all in Vancouver, and I&K had basically their only good senior competition ever together to medal (probably also aided by home country scoring to some extent) to medal despite almost no world medals for Russia from 2010-2018. I am not sure what the problem is, but they arent producting teams of top quality anymore. A team like Bobrova & Soloviev as basically their #1 team for 8 years is pretty much a joke, with all due respect to them.

Yeah, BobSol are a solid Russian number two team or number three team of old...good, reliable skaters who achieve respectable international results: Medals in the GPF, plenty of Euro medals, a world bronze on a good day. But the Russian ice dance program used to produce great pairs who had the potential to fight for the win. DomShabs had that IMO...then his injury and crap programs killed them. After that, no Russian pair ever got to these heights again.

The Russian ice dance program really needs to restructure itself if it wants to be competitive for gold again.

 

[judgejudy27]

Yeah in the old days BobSol would make a reliable #3 team, but never #1, let alone #1 for 8 years, LOL!

Honestly they havent produced a single truly great team like 98/99 when Gritschuk & Platov retired and Krylova & Ovsiannikov's career ended prematurely with her back problems. Lobacheva & Averbuhk, Navka & Kostomarov, and Domnina & Shabalin all won medals, N&K were even both Oly and World Champions, but none was the caliber of team Russia had as their #1, usually their #2, and sometimes their #3 always from 1970-1999. I agree Domnina & Shabalin had huge potential if it wasnt for his constant knee problems, but such was reality. Navka was stunning, one of the great Russian female dancers, but he was practically a Margalio level partner, ok not quite that bad but still. The Russian fed. probably had to politic some for those teams protection in the ranks, which was probably never needed the 3 decades previous. So the signs have been there for awhile, and for atleast 10 years they have been growing rapidly. The first dance podium with no Russian or Soviet team has been a long time coming, and it is a bit amazing it took this long, but it might be good it happened for them as they might finally make some drastic changes.

 

[Amantide]

Even when t/d took over ice dance in the early 80’s and then A/P took over in early to 2000’s Russians were right there behind hem. Even in IJS era when there was 2008 worlds and delobel and schoenfelder won gold and v/m won silver khokhlova and novitski won bronze! Even 10 years ago the second Russian team can win a bronze!!

Yes, casey, that's my point. They are called cycles (you can't dominate forever, the others will catch up with you eventually). They are called schools, support system, people who participate, grooming talents etc. One cheesy choreographer/coach won't solve the problem if you do not have a strong system and methodology to support that.

 

[caseyedwards]

Yeah, BobSol are a solid Russian number two team or number three team of old...good, reliable skaters who achieve respectable international results: Medals in the GPF, plenty of Euro medals, a world bronze on a good day. But the Russian ice dance program used to produce great pairs who had the potential to fight for the win. DomShabs had that IMO...then his injury and crap programs killed them. After that, no Russian pair ever got to these heights again.

The Russian ice dance program really needs to restructure itself if it wants to be competitive for gold again.

Yeah in the old days BobSol would make a reliable #3 team, but never #1, let alone #1 for 8 years, LOL!

Honestly they havent produced a single truly great team like 98/99 when Gritschuk & Platov retired and Krylova & Ovsiannikov's career ended prematurely with her back problems. Lobacheva & Averbuhk, Navka & Kostomarov, and Domnina & Shabalin all won medals, N&K were even both Oly and World Champions, but none was the caliber of team Russia had as their #1, usually their #2, and sometimes their #3 always from 1970-1999. I agree Domnina & Shabalin had huge potential if it wasnt for his constant knee problems, but such was reality. Navka was stunning, one of the great Russian female dancers, but he was practically a Margalio level partner, ok not quite that bad but still. The Russian fed. probably had to politic some for those teams protection in the ranks, which was probably never needed the 3 decades previous. So the signs have been there for awhile, and for atleast 10 years they have been growing rapidly. The first dance podium with no Russian or Soviet team has been a long time coming, and it is a bit amazing it took this long, but it might be good it happened for them as they might finally make some drastic changes.

All true but what can be done?

Mens disaster band aid- keep brining back Plushenko. No ice dance team that has retired has any interest in coming back. Like a domnina/tkachenko team

Pairs disaster fix not just bandaid- import volosozhar. Who can Russia import?

Ladies disaster fix- get rid of everyone. Literally got rid of entire 2007 and 2008 nationals lineups. Age lowering. Eteri took control. Who can be dance eteri?!

 

[Katha]

Just wanted to add: At least from my side, this is in no way, shape or form a slam of B/S. Russian ice dance basically needs to thank them on their knees for their tireless efforts, respectable results and good performances. For eight years, they've been the only ones holding this thing afloat. Even if everything around them crumbled, teams left right and center imploded, they went out there and did solid. Once again at these Olys. 5th place in this strong field is a good result. For various reasons, they just aren't capable of being world beaters. But they can be proud of their career IMO.

 

[caseyedwards]

Yes, casey, that's my point. They are called cycles (you can't dominate forever, the others will catch up with you eventually). They are called schools, support system, people who participate, grooming talents etc. One cheesy choreographer/coach won't solve the problem if you do not have a strong system and methodology to support that.

But this is like to me “just accept being low right now and rebuild” but they don’t know how.

 

[caseyedwards]

Just wanted to add: At least from my side, this is in no way, shape or form a slam of B/S. Russian ice dance basically needs to thank them on their knees for their tireless efforts, respectable results and good performances. For eight years, they've been the only ones holding this thing afloat. Even if everything around them crumbled, teams left right and center imploded, they went out there and did solid. Once again at these Olys. 5th place in this strong field is a good result. For various reasons, they just aren't capable of being world beaters. But they can be proud of their career IMO.

Sure on one level they are most successful Russian ice dance team of all time with 7 titles unfortunately so much of that is the chaotic disaster unfolding all around them! The calm in the storm. The picture of character saying “what fire” in a burning room.

 

[Anyasnake]

First of all, you can't always be dominant. The US weren't always dominant in Ice Dance. If it wasn't for V/M's comeback, the canadians would have maybe lost a bit of group - and we need to actually see where they'll stand as of next season. There are eras, periods, it's one of them.

You might blame B/S for not standing on the podium ? How about I/K splitting, S/K and I/Z imploding, somehow the heirs S/B did not give any clues to why they were banned either. What you mean is thankfully B/S were there. It could have been worse.

The issue is the same one that T/M has : somebody like Meagan Duhamel who has enough guts should tell them that the programs are absolute crap sometimes. You cannot be stubborn and think that it's okay.
They also look very old fashionned, there is an issue with packaging. While S/B FD was a bit odd to listen to... they have that edginess and should run away with it.

A lot of teams trains everywhere in the world, and it's nice to pick the best tips out of every good places. New (and foreign) choreographers or vision. I'd like to see a Pasquale program on Loboda/Drozd or example. Or a Gadbois program on Popova/Mozgov. It might sound out of place but you have to test new things at some point.

 

[caseyedwards]

First of all, you can't always be dominant. The US weren't always dominant in Ice Dance. If it wasn't for V/M's comeback, the canadians would have maybe lost a bit of group - and we need to actually see where they'll stand as of next season. There are eras, periods, it's one of them.

You might blame B/S for not standing on the podium ? How about I/K splitting, S/K and I/Z imploding, somehow the heirs S/B did not give any clues to why they were banned either. What you mean is thankfully B/S were there. It could have been worse.

The issue is the same one that T/M has : somebody like Meagan Duhamel who has enough guts should tell them that the programs are absolute crap sometimes. You cannot be stubborn and think that it's okay.
They also look very old fashionned, there is an issue with packaging. While S/B FD was a bit odd to listen to... they have that edginess and should run away with it.

A lot of teams trains everywhere in the world, and it's nice to pick the best tips out of every good places. New (and foreign) choreographers or vision. I'd like to see a Pasquale program on Loboda/Drozd or example. Or a Gadbois program on Popova/Mozgov. It might sound out of place but you have to test new things at some point.

There is not just a loss of dominance. It’s a loss of talent. What’s going on is not duchesneys beating k/p. It’s a total stiff knees and bent posture and low tech problem from top to bottom.

I say Russia must import all new talent and choreographers! Hire Megan duhamel to advise pairs. Hire camerlengo to advise dance teams. Or send them to him full time!

 

[Anyasnake]

No you hire Meagan as a life coach. And pay her well.

It starts with the basics. But technically, North America and Russia are supposed to have the same since it was Russian coaches in America... If you want the nice basic skating skills though, move to France. Or hire someone from there. Or a Christopher Dean. You'll get the posture and the knee bend very clean.

 

[caseyedwards]

No you hire Meagan as a life coach. And pay her well.

It starts with the basics. But technically, North America and Russia are supposed to have the same since it was Russian coaches in America... If you want the nice basic skating skills though, move to France. Or hire someone from there. Or a Christopher Dean. You'll get the posture and the knee bend very clean.

So how did everything in Russia get boiled down to speed and drama? That’s all they learn now? That’s crazy. Hopefully they do hire dean and maybe even basics coaches.

 

[Anyasnake]

So how did everything in Russia get boiled down to speed and drama? That’s all they learn now? That’s crazy. Hopefully they do hire dean and maybe even basics coaches.

But then, you have an Ivan Bukin. Great skater, great basics. Pavel Drozd too actually - add the presence.

 

[caseyedwards]

But then, you have an Ivan Bukin. Great skater, great basics. Pavel Drozd too actually - add the presence.

So then the Russian federation decided the women didn’t need that much talent. Is there a good woman? Seems like they were choosing a Stepanova sinitsina types of low skill level but with a Certain model look.

 

[Anyasnake]

So then the Russian federation decided the women didn’t need that much talent. Is there a good woman? Seems like they were choosing a Stepanova sinitsina types of low skill level but with a Certain model look.

Anastasia Shpilevaya is one of the best juniors out there by a mile.

 

[caseyedwards]

Anastasia Shpilevaya is one of the best juniors out there by a mile.

And of course her partner is totally injured.

 

[Anyasnake]

And of course her partner is totally injured.

Circumstances. Life and everything. They'll get over it.

 

[muffinplus]

Nina Mozer to save ice dance of course. Right Aerobicidal?

 

[Amantide]

But this is like to me “just accept being low right now and rebuild” but they don’t know how.

Yes, that's what it is basically. If they don't know how, then they will continue the road down south and be beaten.
Sad, but I am sure Russia will survive.

 

[Amantide]

Mens disaster band aid- keep brining back Plushenko. No ice dance team that has retired has any interest in coming back. Like a domnina/tkachenko team

Pairs disaster fix not just bandaid- import volosozhar. Who can Russia import?

This is BS though. They do have great pairs, and 3 out of 4 are also young ones. They just need more work and T&M better programs. Nothing that can't be fixed there.

Men are not a disaster right now. They are very young and new but they have potential. So, they do have material to work in Pairs and Men. Ice Dance is more problematic.

 

[aftershocks]

Just get over it, and deal with the situation. It's not like this scenario happened yesterday. And the world is not going to come to an end as a result. I certainly do not feel sorry for RusFed. They have young, talented skaters in all disciplines coming up, so it's not as if there's a lack of talent. Take it on the chin when you are not winning and not in the medals all the time! Also, the Russian government should not have fostered the doping madness. Deal with that too.

Over the past decade in particular, RusFed made an absolutely conscious decision to focus intently on building their ladies singles discipline. A number of Russian ice dance coaches settled in the U.S. and began teaching, particularly over the past 20 years. The U.S. was not as dominant in ice dance in the past, but they do have historically noteworthy teams who medaled at Worlds and Olympics prior to the recent couple of decades. The U.S. had a wonderful ice dance team in Schwomeyer/Sladky in 1970 who absolutely wuzrobbed in favor of Russians, Pahkomova/Gorshkov (and when they first received gold at Worlds, Gorshkov was a very poor ice dancer ). Schwomeyer/Sladky were magical and got dumped on, because of Eastern-bloc politics in figure skating. One judge even had the nerve to cite a nose-in-the-air body-shaming reason for why Schwomeyer/Sladky did not deserve to win in 1970.

Things change and go in cycles. The sport has a long, complex and involved history. What goes around comes around. RusFed allowed the Morosov interference that came between his young charges awhile back. That young team's relationship and partnership eventually blew up big time. Seemingly those Russian ice dance partners were destined for greatness together, not separately.

 

[Marta24]

This is BS though. They do have great pairs, and 3 out of 4 are also young ones. They just need more work and T&M better programs. Nothing that can't be fixed there.

Men are not a disaster right now. They are very young and new but they have potential. So, they do have material to work in Pairs and Men. Ice Dance is more problematic.

Ice Dance teams also take much longer to be successful. People usually point to V/M and P/C as examples for teams who rose very quickly in the standings, but both skated over 10 years together before winning World medals. IMO, one big issue Russian ice dance has, is that the teams don`t manage to stay together.
From the junior teams, I`ve high hopes for Polishchuk/Vakhnov, because they have been skating together nearly 10 years and also have great basics. I can only hope they will stay together in the coming years. I think the fact that Stepanova/Bukin have been skating together for 12 years, is also an advantage they have over teams like S/K, Z/G or P/M.

 

[caseyedwards]

Yes, that's what it is basically. If they don't know how, then they will continue the road down south and be beaten.
Sad, but I am sure Russia will survive.

Of course Russia will survive! I just think it’s unfortunate that a previously strong program that generated great programs no longer does. Great Russian ice dancers are not meeting their potential and are being robbed by Russia of their potential success and talent when previous generations had their talent maximized!

This is BS though. They do have great pairs, and 3 out of 4 are also young ones. They just need more work and T&M better programs. Nothing that can't be fixed there.

Men are not a disaster right now. They are very young and new but they have potential. So, they do have material to work in Pairs and Men. Ice Dance is more problematic.

Well some of those were meant to be past tense and what was done at the biggest moment of crisis for the programs.

Just get over it, and deal with the situation. It's not like this scenario happened yesterday. And the world is not going to come to an end as a result. I certainly do not feel sorry for RusFed. They have young, talented skaters in all disciplines coming up, so it's not as if there's a lack of talent. Take it on the chin when you are not winning and not in the medals all the time! Also, the Russian government should not have fostered the doping madness. Deal with that too.

Over the past decade in particular, RusFed made an absolutely conscious decision to focus intently on building their ladies singles discipline. A number of Russian ice dance coaches settled in the U.S. and began teaching, particularly over the past 20 years. The U.S. was not as dominant in ice dance in the past, but they do have historically noteworthy teams who medaled at Worlds and Olympics prior to the recent couple of decades. The U.S. had a wonderful ice dance team in Schwomeyer/Sladky in 1970 who absolutely wuzrobbed in favor of Russians, Pahkomova/Gorshkov (and when they first received gold at Worlds, Gorshkov was a very poor ice dancer ). Schwomeyer/Sladky were magical and got dumped on, because of Eastern-bloc politics in figure skating. One judge even had the nerve to cite a nose-in-the-air body-shaming reason for why Schwomeyer/Sladky did not deserve to win in 1970.

Things change and go in cycles. The sport has a long, complex and involved history. What goes around comes around. RusFed allowed the Morosov interference that came between his young charges awhile back. That young team's relationship and partnership eventually blew up big time. Seemingly those Russian ice dance partners were destined for greatness together, not separately.

LOl doping, morozov, eastern block judging! A greatest hits that says “Russia deserve it! Ha ha losers! You robbed Americans in 1970!” BUT sure the doping lead to the ban of Bukin sure. By not firing morozov for his sexual abuse statutory rape I/k split. True! But not to say there aren’t real structural problems.

Ice Dance teams also take much longer to be successful. People usually point to V/M and P/C as examples for teams who rose very quickly in the standings, but both skated over 10 years together before winning World medals. IMO, one big issue Russian ice dance has, is that the teams don`t manage to stay together.
From the junior teams, I`ve high hopes for Polishchuk/Vakhnov, because they have been skating together nearly 10 years and also have great basics. I can only hope they will stay together in the coming years. I think the fact that Stepanova/Bukin have been skating together for 12 years, is also an advantage they have over teams like S/K, Z/G or P/M.

But 10 years and no improvement of Stepanova knee bend. That’s not going to survive scrutiny of the belbins! Just like bobrova posture didn’t survive scrutiny of the belbins. You can’t win big medals with big flaws like Stepanova knee bend problems.

 

[coppertop1]

Why have the Russian Ice Dancing failed to adapt to the IJS? It's not a new system. With over ten years, there plenty of time to do so, but they haven't. Athletes have to adjust and keep up with the standards or they fall behind and no country is dominant forever. This was inevitable, June lithe American ladies aren't winning Olympic medals and the Canadian Men are hit and miss when it comes to the Olympic Podium.

 

[ChelleC]

I think it's important to remember, when talking of the great Russian/Soviet pairs and dance teams of the past, that the Soviet system pushed the best skaters into pairs and dance. The skaters who are coming up now, they've likely had the freedom to choose for themselves what discpline they will skate.

The breakup of the Soviet Union is still be felt in Russian figure skating, imo.

 

[caseyedwards]

Why have the Russian Ice Dancing failed to adapt to the IJS? It's not a new system. With over ten years, there plenty of time to do so, but they haven't. Athletes have to adjust and keep up with the standards or they fall behind and no country is dominant forever. This was inevitable, June lithe American ladies aren't winning Olympic medals and the Canadian Men are hit and miss when it comes to the Olympic Podium.

They don’t want to change the whole conception of ice dance so much! They want big sweeping movements across the ice at great speed most of the time. All the demands for constant complex steps and transitions in and out of all elements is just too much!! Where is the room just to be like portraying drama or letting a dominant skater show their stuff?! At some points it’s right to be amazed at how long Russian ice dance held on when they had to spend so much time on technical Elements the coaches and choreographers all hate but tried to adapt to Russian ice dance style.

I think it's important to remember, when talking of the great Russian/Soviet pairs and dance teams of the past, that the Soviet system pushed the best skaters into pairs and dance. The skaters who are coming up now, they've likely had the freedom to choose for themselves what discpline they will skate.

The breakup of the Soviet Union is still be felt in Russian figure skating, imo.

So the most talented can do whatver they like with less interference to switch to dance or pairs. So the skaters who still love ice dance as a number one choice are actually less talented than someone who may like it less than ladies or men’s because if they didn’t do what they are told it meant no skating at all!

 

[Aerobicidal]

Nina Mozer to save ice dance of course. Right Aerobicidal?

The only way Nina Mozer could save Russian ice dance would be if all the top non-Russian teams left their coaches and went to her. I'd be okay with that for the FSU meltdown factor and the snark factor. Mozer style icon forever!!!

 

[Bellanca]

Yes, casey, that's my point. They are called cycles (you can't dominate forever, the others will catch up with you eventually).

First of all, you can't always be dominant.

These two quotes pretty much sum it up.

 

[muffinplus]

The only way Nina Mozer could save Russian ice dance would be if all the top non-Russian teams left their coaches and went to her. I'd be okay with that for the FSU meltdown factor and the snark factor. Mozer style icon forever!!!

How could she top Candyman?

 

[laviemn]

But 10 years and no improvement of Stepanova knee bend. That’s not going to survive scrutiny of the belbins! Just like bobrova posture didn’t survive scrutiny of the belbins. You can’t win big medals with big flaws like Stepanova knee bend problems.

Tanith already said S/B have improved enormously in the last year and should be challenging for World medals very soon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUXBCeAhwkM