U.S. Men in 2018 - articles & latest news

Status
Not open for further replies.
misskarne said:
Interesting how many people are up in arms about Jason's 3A, but barely a peep about the joke that's Rippon getting 9s in transitions for that SP.

I thought Zhou was marked too high also on the PCS. Hochstein was excellent.
Click to expand...

exactly!!!, in my opinion Grant deserved the second place, poor guy :revenge::wall:
 
Reminder for those of you alleging that the judges “overlooked” the < on Jason’s 3A: The tech panel don’t see what we see, even on replay, and in borderline cases are supposed to give the benefit of doubt to the skater. Jason did not get full credit for his 3A from the judges - he got -1.86 GOE, and even if an < had been called he still would have scored over 90.

As for body of work criteria: Sam Auxier emphasized at a recent press conference that they’re part of the selection process. Jason ticks off a lot of boxes in those criteria - far more than Ashley.

Whether Jason could knock Vincent out is an open question; even though Vincent ticks far fewer boxes in the criteria, if he skates brilliantly and Jason bombs - or if there’s a huge score differential - Vincent could very well be sent over Jason. As to Grant, in 2017 he placed 9/11 on the GP, 9 at 4CC, and his ISU PB is under 240. His best result was at Nepela, where he placed 4th. So I guess it’s unlikely he’d be sent unless maybe he won.
 
aftershocks said:
Freudian slip @tylersf. You mean Nathan Slaythan Chen. I couldn't figure Mike Weiss' insistence upon making out some kind of rivalry between Nathan and Vincent. Not since they were in juniors really has there been a rivalry. Nathan is a bit older and has better polish and maturity. Vincent is great at tackling the quads, but he still has to put it all together consistently. Sure Vincent can land the quads and rack up points, but I hope he just gets to go to 4CCs, and maybe Worlds for this season.

Oh yes, I meant to mention: Kudos for the Dick Button Effect (DBE) on display after the first group finished and Dick was honored in-between in the arena. So deserved! Thanks Uncle Dick! :respec:



Calm down @NAOTMAA. Geesh. I'll bet Grant is not worried or upset about it like you are. That's a record score for Grant and he deserves it. Of course it can be argued that Grant should be ahead of Jason, but I actually guessed 93+ for Jason and I was right. Sure the judges were lenient on Jason for the mistake on the 3-axel. Somewhat similar to how the judges were lenient on Karen Chen in placing her over a clean Angela Wang the other day, and then keeping Ashley behind Angela.

It can definitely be argued that Jason should be slightly behind Grant. But the judges are giving Jason a vote of confidence like they did Karen Chen. And Jason has even more reason than Karen to be rewarded with 3rd in the sp. In Jason's case, his charisma and superb presentation skills combined with exquisite attention to detail are what gave him the highest PCS score.
Click to expand...


And you would know that..how?
 
Men's SP recap by Lynn Rutherford (includes quotes from the top 4): http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/01/05/264307512

Hersh's article on Rippon: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/01/05/264307102
Seerek said:
Jr Worlds Team likely to be Camden, Alex K and Andrew T?
Click to expand...
Looking like it after Andrew Torgashev landed his first (I believe) 3A cleanly in competition in last night's SP! He's in 9th place (81.32), right behind Alex Krasnozhon in 8th (82.58).

Junior Men's recap article from 2 days ago -- Camden Pulkinen won the gold with dominating performances, followed by Dinh Tran (silver), Maxim Naumov (bronze) and Ryan Dunk (pewter after a strong 3rd place in FS coming back from 10th in SP): http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/01/03/264238194/meticulous-pulkinen-captures-junior-mens-title
 
Last edited:
Auxier's words notwithstanding, IMO the "body of work" criteria are listed for only two reasons - to imply that Nationals is not the sole determinant of the OLY team (which would then give the USOC control over the event), and to give USFS leeway if something freaky happens like a total meltdown of the top skaters. But aside from putting Wagner on the 2014 team, they usually go with the podium. For example, they didn't bump Mroz to name Weir to the 2009 Worlds team despite Weir being the reigning World bronze medalist and 3-time national champion.
 
BittyBug said:
Auxier's words notwithstanding, IMO the "body of work" criteria are listed for only two reasons - to imply that Nationals is not the sole determinant of the OLY team (which would then give the USOC control over the event), and to give USFS leeway if something freaky happens like a total meltdown of the top skaters. But aside from putting Wagner on the 2014 team, they usually go with the podium. For example, they didn't bump Mroz to name Weir to the 2009 Worlds team despite Weir being the reigning World bronze medalist and 3-time national champion.
Click to expand...

You may well be right, but we don’t really know, do we? Auxier didn’t specify when/how those criteria would come into play. And I think it’s important to note that he wasn’t President in 2009 or 2014, and it’s possible that thinking on team selection has changed since then. He did say that skaters are all aware of the criteria, that it’s published in the member’s section of the website, and that USFS is working with NBC to make sure they get the word out to the public.

I would guess if Jason bombs, body of work won’t save him no matter how many criteria he fills. But who knows.
 
CoolGuy said:
.... I thought Torgashev had good speed during the footwork, especially considering how deep his edges were and the amount of directional changes there are.
https://youtu.be/_BqpbxHgIz8?t=107
Click to expand...
I was thinking more about the section at the end of the footwork. If he'd maintained speed he easily could've covered 1/3 of the ice on that section (it was a circleish pattern), but he maybe covered 1/6. In footwork, you need to maintain speed, not just start with it.

I think Jason's body of work would definitely put him above Grant, but with Vincent it might be a bit closer. Hopefully we won't have to find out and Jason will end up on the podium... I think Vincent, if clean, can get a much higher score than Jason due to the quads. But he tends to UR and fall quite a bit so who knows if he'll actually be clean.
 
BittyBug said:
Auxier's words notwithstanding, IMO the "body of work" criteria are listed for only two reasons - to imply that Nationals is not the sole determinant of the OLY team (which would then give the USOC control over the event), and to give USFS leeway if something freaky happens like a total meltdown of the top skaters. But aside from putting Wagner on the 2014 team, they usually go with the podium. For example, they didn't bump Mroz to name Weir to the 2009 Worlds team despite Weir being the reigning World bronze medalist and 3-time national champion.
Click to expand...

Examples from pre-2014 don't have much relevance now. The culture of international selections at USFS has changed. Since 2014, the committee has deviated from national results.

Committee chose Brown (S3) over Zhou (S2) for worlds in 2017
Committee chose Cain/LeDuc (S3) over Castelli/Tran (S2) for 4CC/1st alt for worlds in 2017
Committee placed Hawayek/Baker (S5) as 1st alt for worlds over Pogebrinsky/Benoit (S4) in 2017

USFS is also beginning to deviate from national results for junior assignments as well. Skaters are leapfrogging people who beat them at nationals to get JGP assignments, e.g., Harrell (N6 2017) being chosen while Kalyan (N3 2017) was not. Novice skaters who haven't even skated junior are being selected because of their potential (Endo and Hsieh). This is not the same approach that was used five years ago.
 
Last edited:
...and with a Nikolai Morozov program no less.
Maybe the ISU should have assigned Hip-Hop for the short dance for the Olympic Season (but then again, it wasn't as if any of the teams really went all-out with the theme last season).

Tavi said:
Whether Jason could knock Vincent out is an open question; even though Vincent ticks far fewer boxes in the criteria, if he skates brilliantly and Jason bombs - or if there’s a huge score differential - Vincent could very well be sent over Jason. As to Grant, in 2017 he placed 9/11 on the GP, 9 at 4CC, and his ISU PB is under 240. His best result was at Nepela, where he placed 4th. So I guess it’s unlikely he’d be sent unless maybe he won.
Click to expand...

I don't mind if Jason gets the Olympics berth even he doesn't place Top 3 overall at US Nationals, but IMO, Grant or Vincent should unconditionally be awarded a Worlds berth if either places Top 3 overall after Saturday.
 
kwanette said:
And you would know that..how?
Click to expand...

Of course I do not know how Grant feels about it @kwanette. I said 'I bet,' not 'I know.' I only said that because Grant and Jason seemingly are good friends, at least from what I've seen of their interaction, they appear to be very friendly. I could be very wrong, and so I probably shouldn't have said that. Still, I don't think it's right for Jason to be slammed by the poster I was responding to. My initial feeling was that Jason might be placed behind Grant, because Grant landed a quad-triple and he skated clean. That would have seemed a fairer result to many fans most likely. It was such a great skate by Grant, and it was so wonderful to see him rise to the occasion -- his final Nationals competition. I was so happy for him. I thought Jason would either be placed slightly behind Grant, or just in front, and that's why I guessed 93+ for Jason, which is what happened. Jason gets a lot of flack from some quarters, but I think he should be respected for his superb talent and superior achievements in the sport. He's trying very hard to get a quad. Grant also worked very hard for all that he's accomplished. Plus, landing the quad consistently is never easy, so when Grant does perform as well as this with a quad, it's something to celebrate. He was definitely well rewarded, but still off the top podium positions. So it may in fact not be giving him a good feeling after how well he skated.

Honestly, it's the same that happened to Angela Wang vs Karen Chen in the ladies event: Angela skated better than Karen, but Karen was put in third ahead of Angela. I guess we have to question the judges' motivations. But I think it's due in Karen's case to the judges giving her a chance since she came in 4th at 2017 Worlds, and because she's the U.S. defending champion. Also when she puts it together, Karen is a very gifted skater. In the case of Jason over Grant, it's somewhat similar in the sense that Grant did not have a remarkable season to this point, and he said earlier on that this is his final season. Jason has been marginally better in winning a medal in his first GP, but then he ran into trouble at NHK. However, Jason did make the GP, and he does have exquisite talent artistically and as an all-around skater. Aside from his difficulty in mastering the almighty quad, of course.

It's hard to know what's going to happen for the men, but obviously going into Nationals, the guys who made top three in the sp were the favorites by virtue of them having made the Grand Prix Final (Jason making it obviously on the basis of Boyang dropping out due to injury). These kinds of placement decisions are always controversial, and they happen quite often in figure skating.

I didn't like the result for Karen in the ladies more-so, because I felt that the judges went against Ashley for a similar mistake to the one Karen made, and yet Ashley was placed behind Angela, and Karen wasn't. Also, I admit to having a soft spot for Jason. I love his skating and his personality. I also love Max and I wish he had a better result. It's painful to watch skaters going through difficult emotions in the kiss 'n cry.

Indeed, Grant might very well be upset about being in 4th place after how well he skated with landing a quad, and then seeing two guys in front of him who didn't land a quad in the sp. Do you have any inkling how Grant feels? Did you speak to him personally?
 
I think body of work keeps Jason ahead of Grant, if it's close. It should keep him ahead of Zhou also because I feel like the more recent results should have a higher weighting.

Body of work when considering the 4CC selections may also become rather interesting if Max pulls off a good FS tomorrow and lifts several places.
 
Jason’s 3A is fine as long as Adam and Nathan are getting 9s for skating skills and transitions, and an average of 9s across all components. That’s outrageous. Jason’s little 3A overlook is acceptable and worth less than those pumped up components. Jason PCS should be a lot higher in comparison. Less than a point over Nathan and Adam?
 
Firedancer said:
I really like Torgashev and I was happy to see him hit the 3A. I hope he can go to junior worlds and work more with coaches other than mom & dad.
Click to expand...

Exactly. It's good that perhaps Andrew's parents finally realized they need to seek outside coaching assistance to help Andrew. It can be hard on a skater (especially if he's an only child) trying to please his parents who are his coaches. It often seemed to me that Andrew might be struggling with that (i.e., not want to disappoint his parents). Of course, I'm not a psychologist and so I don't know for sure. However, Andrew seemed much freer and more focused in his performance in the sp at Nats. I was happy to see that.

Obviously, so far being coached by her parents has worked for Ashley Cain, and it may work for other skaters too. Everyone has different personalities.

BittyBug said:
... they didn't bump Mroz to name Weir to the 2009 Worlds team despite Weir being the reigning World bronze medalist and 3-time national champion.
Click to expand...

Sure but there were other reasons why Johnny wasn't given the bye. The members who made that decision likely had a variety of reasons for not bumping Mroz, and some of those reasons had a lot to do with USFS members who did not particularly like Johnny, again for different reasons. Mroz's coach Tom Z was very vocal on Mroz's behalf. And there were reports that some on the selection committee felt it was Johnny's own fault he was sick and thus didn't perform well (similar to the feeling against Nicole Bobek at one point). I also recall that Mark Mitchell was on the selection committee (I believe I am remembering correctly) and since Mark had previously been bumped from an Olympic appearance back-in-the-day (I believe on behalf of Christopher Bowman, or Todd Eldredge, I forget exactly), Mark had personal experience with that situation, and he was outspoken about not feeling a skater should be bumped if they medaled. (I could be mixing eras of course. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm remembering incorrectly).

Please don't ask me how I know this @kwanette. :lol: You had to experience that era, and be a Johnny fan. Some USFS members did not like Johnny's modeling ventures either (particularly not the famous pictures in Blackbook). Obviously you also experienced that era @kwanette, and you as well @BittyBug.
 
Last edited:
aftershocks said:
Sure but there were other reasons why Johnny wasn't given the bye.
Click to expand...

No, there was one. Weir was sick and screwed up Nationals. And the USFS had told him they didn't really want him going to that show, warning him that he was taking a risk that close to Nationals, but he still went. I don't at all blame the USFS for having a bit of a "told you so" moment. At that point, with his track record (particularly his record of faking illness and injury), Weir really ought not to have been shocked.

Things that are not okay, according to FSU:
- Jason's 3A not getting called UR
- Jason

Things that are okay, according to FSU:
- Adam getting 9s in transitions for that SP
- Vincent Zhou getting 42 PCS for that SP
- Vincent Zhou's forward-landed 4F getting only < and not <<
- Nathan Chen getting 46 PCS for that SP including a higher skating skills score than Jason what the actual fcuk and a performance score like a tenth lower than Jason
 
MAXSwagg said:
Jason’s 3A is fine as long as Adam and Nathan are getting 9s for skating skills and transitions, and an average of 9s across all components. That’s outrageous. Jason’s little 3A overlook is acceptable and worth less than those pumped up components. Jason PCS should be a lot higher in comparison. Less than a point over Nathan and Adam?
Click to expand...
He isn't fighting those two for spots; he is fighting the 2-3 guys below him. How he scores compared to them matters.
 
misskarne said:
No, there was one. Weir was sick and screwed up Nationals. And the USFS had told him they didn't really want him going to that show, warning him that he was taking a risk that close to Nationals, but he still went. I don't at all blame the USFS for having a bit of a "told you so" moment. At that point, with his track record (particularly his record of faking illness and injury), Weir really ought not to have been shocked.
Click to expand...

:lol: Thanks for weighing in @misskarne. Your absolute disgust for Johnny Weir is well known and often expressed. :D And you're entitled to your opinions too. Like I said, there were a variety of reasons, and I touched on the fact that some USFS members felt it was Johnny's own fault he got sick (yeah it had to do with his going to that show, that's why I mentioned the similarity to the Bobek decision). Still, there's no question Johnny was not well-liked by everyone. In some quarters, Johnny's modeling pictures in Blackbook were the last straw, so to speak. :p

Of course, it's no big deal to see Johnny wearing a skirt these days. But back then, as U.S. Nationals men's champion on full display for all the world to see. :drama: :COP: U.S. fed were even more fully with Evan Lysacek, and Evan was prepared that season to win Worlds, especially after Patrick Chan's bout of foot-in-mouth during press conferences.

In any case, I'm not sure why you think Johnny was 'shocked' by the decision. He made a concerted effort to advocate for himself, but he was fairly resigned at the same time, IMHO. Whatever @misskarne. What happened, happened regardless of any of our views on it.

And what will be, will be.
 
“Body of work” sounds like a bad Madonna movie from the 90s :P

Re: Mark Mitchell was bumped in favor of an injured Todd who had won bronze at the previous worlds. At the time it was silver medalist Wylie who was the focus of all the vitriol as the complainers felt he was a has been and Mark was the future. As it turned out, Paul medaled at the Olys, Mark bombed worlds and a still injured Todd bombed both.
 
jlai said:
He isn't fighting those two for spots; he is fighting the 2-3 guys below him. How he scores compared to them matters.
Click to expand...

According to Adam and Nathan scored, it DOESN’T matter. And people were whining about Russian Nationals scores? Oh, please.
 
MAXSwagg said:
According to Adam and Nathan scored, it DOESN’T matter. And people were whining about Russian Nationals scores? Oh, please.
Click to expand...
Your sentence doesn't make sense. What I said was how he scored relative to his competition matters esp those he has to fight against. That is those above and below him.

That is on top of generic national inflation
 
IIRC, Andrew Torgashev has been going periodically to Colorado Springs for the past couple of years (not just this season, IIRC?) to work with Christy Krall.
aftershocks said:
I love Alex Johnson (such a sexy, jazzy performance; shout out to Rohene's choreo).
Click to expand...
Tom Dickson choreographed Alex Johnson's SP to "Legends" by Sacred Spirit (he never competed the SP program to Enigma that Rohene Ward was choreographing for him last summer) and Alex's official website confirms he has returned to last season's FS for Nationals: http://figureskatersonline.com/alexanderjohnson/home/program-info/
 
misskarne said:
I think body of work keeps Jason ahead of Grant, if it's close. It should keep him ahead of Zhou also because I feel like the more recent results should have a higher weighting.

Body of work when considering the 4CC selections may also become rather interesting if Max pulls off a good FS tomorrow and lifts several places.
Click to expand...

I think there are complete skaters and then I think there are "whole package" skaters that can be singular in their abilities. Jason lacks a quad but dear God the rest of his work is so special imho. And this is in a fantastic event---we have so many wonderful men. It reminds of the year when we watched Michelle, Sara, Angela, Jenny and so many others that skated beautifully, one after the other, in the ladies event. I understand zinging the judges but so often it seems to come back with resentment for the skater. I think it was this site , years ago, I remember reading a venom-filled post for "Miss Kwan" regarding her scoring for one event. Somehow folks seem to forget who provides the scores. I don't have a problem with the scores because I think Jason's spins and footwork and overall quality of his presentation is a little bit better than anyone else out there. His placement makes sense to me.
 
Last edited:
jlai said:
Your sentence doesn't make sense. What I said was how he scored relative to his competition matters esp those he has to fight against. That is those above and below him.

That is on top of generic national inflation
Click to expand...

Nationals or not, it's bad judging.
 
So I just realized that today is Josh Farris' birthday. What lousy timing. I hope he's doing something awesome today that he couldn't do if he was competing. And whatever he's doing -- eating lots of cake or going skiing would by my suggestions -- next time he can bring Max along.

I really hope to see some choreography from him in the future if we can't watch him perform.
 
Jordan Moeller's instagram post is really lovely. The caption read:
Well, I've gotta be honest. This is certainly not where I was hoping to be going into the freeskate tomorrow. That being said, allow me to indulge in a bit of story telling: After having what was arguably the worst skate of my competitive career, I wandered out of the venue to be alone with my thoughts for a minute before making my way back in to cheer on my friends and team mates. I sat down on a bench in the middle of a seemingly empty park and just let go of everything I'd been fighting to keep bottled inside. After a few minutes of this, I was approached by a man, rolling a suitcase behind him. He looked at me, probably looking a bit of an emotional wreck, and asked if I was okay. I replied that I was and wished him a good night before he departed down towards the river bed, but not before offering me a blanket and a jacket and letting me know that if I needed anything, he'd be down by the river. I gotta say, if that doesn't put a little perspective on life, I don't know what will. I've been blessed with so many amazing opportunities through this sport and, though I may have come across a bump in the road, I am so thankful for the opportunity to do what I love everyday and share my craft with the world. I'm very excited to have the opportunity to kick off the freeskate tomorrow full of incredibly talented guys. After all, it's not how far you fall, but how quickly you #getup. @usfigureskating
@skate7k
#uschamps18 #getup #teamusa#clairdelune
Click to expand...

https://www.instagram.com/p/BdmQzwLBNMc/?taken-by=jomosk8

Best of luck to him in the LP!
 
wickedwitch said:
So I just realized that today is Josh Farris' birthday. What lousy timing. I hope he's doing something awesome today that he couldn't do if he was competing. And whatever he's doing -- eating lots of cake or going skiing would by my suggestions -- next time he can bring Max along.

I really hope to see some choreography from him in the future if we can't watch him perform.
Click to expand...

What might have been. (sighs) I hope he's happy and healed. And I really hope too that skating has a place for him and he has a place in skating.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 3 (members: 0, guests: 3)

Similar threads

Sylvia
U.S. Men 2018-19 season (cont.) - news & updates
17 18 19
Replies
562
Views
108K
Sylvia
Sylvia
Sylvia
  • Locked
U.S. Pairs 2018 - News & Updates, Part VIII
37 38 39
Replies
1K
Views
242K
Sylvia
Sylvia
Sylvia
North American club/local shows, benefits & galas, 2018 edition
2
Replies
53
Views
12K
Sylvia
Sylvia
Sylvia
  • Locked
U.S. Men in 2017 - articles & latest news
69 70 71
Replies
2K
Views
252K
AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)
AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)
Back
Top
Do Not Sell My Personal Information