Tessa Virtue & Scott Moir # 47: Come What May...

[carpis]

Oh my goodness.
Now ice dance that looks simple is in reality complex? A team who is skating a complex program has a problem because it looks too complex?
The emperor is wearing new clothes for sure.

I'm so over people stating that what PC do is more complex but they do it oh so well that is seamless. Their footwork is less complex, they do a lot of crossovers, sbs skating and open holds, and a lot less of multidirectional skating. I know people love their simple but oh so difficult lifts. They're not difficult. I can get every retired a decade ago skater I know and they can still do them. I wouldn't even try to backflip in to my partner's arms or throwing myself backwards into him. I would either die or kill him. I could maybe try to do VM curve lift. And I was a pair skater, so that's how hard their lifts are.

 

[MsZem]

I'm so over people stating that what PC do is more complex but they do it oh so well that is seamless. Their footwork is less complex, they do a lot of crossovers, sbs skating and open holds, and a lot less of multidirectional skating. I know people love their simple but oh so difficult lifts. They're not difficult. I can get every retired a decade ago skater I know and they can still do them. I wouldn't even try to backflip in to my partner's arms or throwing myself backwards into him. I would either die or kill him. I could maybe try to do VM curve lift. And I was a pair skater, so that's how hard their lifts are.

By all means, do get your retired friends to recreate the lifts all the GPF teams did, and post the results on Youtube. Make sure they're all insured before they attempt the so-easy lifts the other teams are doing.

I saw V/M live once, way back in the 2009-10 season. I was so impressed; their talent was undeniable, and the future looked golden indeed. I still think they're extremely impressive. But it's eight years later, and they're not the only impressive team out there. I wish more of V/M's fans recognized that you can appreciate their talent and programs without putting down other skaters. I wish they'd listened to Marie-France when she tried to steer them away from Moulin Rouge. And I wish this thread can be about celebrating what Tessa and Scott do rather than bitching about their competitors, the judges, and whoever else happens to prefer other teams.

 

[Golden1]

And I wish this thread could be about V/M only and not about people telling V/M fans how amazing P/C is and how happy their fans should be that they lose to such a great team.
I also don't think that V/M fans don't like other skaters. I like other teams like H/D, the Shibs, the Danes and many others but why should I talk about them in this thread? However, other posters seem to have a problem with the fact that not everyone in here adores P/C.

Back to V/M: I just saw on tumblr that Scott's parents are with them in Japan. How nice that they had so much support there.
Does anyone here remember when it was announced that Tessa and Scott joined "Art on Ice"? I just wonder if there might be a slight chance that I could see them again live.
Until then I'm really looking forward to their exhibition program. I always wanted to see something funny or comedic from them but I love, love, love "long time running". It's so sentimental and therefore the perfect program for their last season together in my opinion.

 

[ichiro]

I like what they've done with MR, however MR concept has been done to death. I love their intense tango opening, second half of the FD bores me. I appreciate the sheer difficulty of this FD.

I have nothing against PC - though I find their program easier in terms of construction, they skate it with such ease. The entire concept works!

Really wished they had listened to MF. I'm still curious as to what she had in store for them. Is it too late to scrape this program???

 

[Golden1]

I think no pair in ice dance has picked a really amazing FD music this season. V/M are my favorites because of their skills and because of what they have done with this piece of music but the music itself is not my taste. However, there is no free dance this season that has won me over completely. I like Joti and Kavita's free dance because I adore the music (and wish Marina had let Tessa and Scott skate to it) but of course, the program itself has its weaknesses because of their limited skating abilities. Last year I really liked a lot of free dances (e.g. the Shibs, H/D), this year not so much.
I have to admit my favorite program in all of figure skating is Aljona and Bruno's. Usually I prefer ice dance over pairs but this routine is an absolute dream and I have watched their performance over and over today.

However, I wouldn't want Tessa and Scott to change their program. They said that it was their choice and that they connect with it, so I want them to finish their career with programs they love and in the way they had envisioned it. But I admit I would also like to know what MF's concept had been for them and if Tessa and Scott sometimes secretly wish they had listened to her.

 

[Vera Costa]

BI wish they'd listened to Marie-France when she tried to steer them away from Moulin Rouge.

If they had, and the results had been the same, we'd be talking about how they should have gone with their own vision instead. Four years ago, V/M did what Marina wanted them to do and everyone was bemoaning the fact that they listened to her.

 

[Amantide]

I think no pair in ice dance has picked a really amazing FD music this season.

This.

 

[carpis]

I think no pair in ice dance has picked a really amazing FD music this season.

Are you talking just about top teams? I love FB/S choice of music and concept. I agree with you about SM, that LP is stunning, I liked a lot their SP too but it was really hard to perform doing also well all the elements.

 

[arakwafan2006]

The come what may music is almost too poetic before the death.

 

[alice73]

There are two great teams at the top. I believe that anyone saying otherwise is confused or has too strong a bias. I agree with the theory that they are close enough that it could / should come down to the day of - mistakes or lack thereof, levels, GOE, the tentativeness or attack of the programs on those days.
So the thing that is bothering me about the marks at the GPF is the uniformity of the higher marks in PCS. Obviously there are things we can't see on screen that you can sese live. I have read that P and C are faster - and if that is true then I see how it can affect the skating skills mark. Maybe in the arena there was a clearer difference in the performance the day of - and that is why P and C have higher PE mark. Maybe even the IN mark. But what about the rest? With the teams both being so strong - to me it seems suspect that P and C were found superior by the judges in every aspect of PCS.
Are their transitions and Choreography so obviously superior? I would feel more at ease if there were some variation in those marks. Surely with the teams both so strong, it would make sense for V and M to come out on top in at least 1 of the PCS marks? That is what seems a bit suspect to me.

Also - I think there is an negative overreaction in this thread and on these boards about their program and music choices. Lots of people in the "real world" love them. I adore MR and see it getting better and stronger with every outing. I don't love the movie and don't listen to the music at all, but I was in AWE at Skate Canada and am thrilled to see it even stronger here. I also very much appreciate and enjoy their SD. I love that they are doing programs they love and don't think the hand wringing here is doing anyone any good. I can't wait to see them both at Nationals.

Spot on.

 

[puglover]

Not all fans bash other skates regardless of their opinions. I also agree it could/should not come out as uniform as it is. But - I am still staying on my sunny side of the street.

 

[Amantide]

I have read that P and C are faster - and if that is true then I see how it can affect the skating skills mark.

It is true that on TV you can not really appreciate the speed that skaters generate, but more importantly you cannot see the ice coverage. This is because of the camera close up work on television.
To be sure, speed is a very important factor in determing the SS. However it is not the be-all.

These are the Skating Skills Definition, as per ISU:

Defined by overall cleanness and sureness, edge control and flow over the ice surface demonstrated by a command of the skating vocabulary (edges, steps, turns etc.), the clarity of technique and the use of effortless power to accelerate and vary speed.

In evaluating the Skating Skills, the following must be considered:
• Use of deep edges, steps and turns;
• Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement;
• Flow and glide;
• Varide use of power, speed and acceleration;
• Use of multi directional skating;
• Use of one foot skating.

Critea for 6.00-6.75 range SS:
• reasonable, sure edges
• above average knee action
• above average cleanness in foot placement in steps/turns demonstrated in all directions with ease at least 60% of the time
• steps/turns, all directions with ease 60% of the time
• gain and maintain speed and flow easily
• above average skill range for both

Critea for 7.00 – 7.75 range for SS:
strong, sure, confident edges
• strong, flexible knee action
• polished & clean foot placement in steps/turns
• good use of multi directional skating
• ability to accelerate easily
• good skill range 70% of time for both

Critea for 8.00 – 8.75 range SS:
• strong, sure, fluid edges
• supple knee action
• precision of foot placement, neat steps/turns
• ease in accelerating even during difficult steps
• always multidirectional broad skill range for both

Criteria for 9.00-10.00 range for SS:
• deep/fluid knee action
• excellent precision of foot placement in steps/turns
• seamless use of all directions
• effortless acceleration
• extensive skill range for both

Their biggest problem as far as I'm concerned is that horrid SD. They probably thought to replicate the Prince SD, but IMO, they're too angular and lose out the latin feel entirely.

I agree with this, and as a program/structure/music it is not worth 2nd place either.

 

[Zazy]

I'm so over people stating that what PC do is more complex but they do it oh so well that is seamless. Their footwork is less complex, they do a lot of crossovers, sbs skating and open holds, and a lot less of multidirectional skating.

Anyone saying that P/C's programs aren't very simple and open are deluding themselves, period. They're doing simple things at a high level of quality but they're still simple. And there's a serious lack of interdependent skating, which is a major aspect of what used to differentiate pairs and ice dance. Basically they skate in parallel instead of as a unit which is a lot less risky and makes it easier to skate clean.

I know I've said this before but I'd be a huge fan of P/C if they were a pair team. They're still young but right now I feel they're not showing some important elements of ice dancing (and with the way the judges are showering them with marks they will never have any incentive to do so). It's fine if you disagree, if you think what they're doing right now is what ice dance should look like. But to pretend that it isn't way more simple than their predecessors is some warped uber logic.

ETA I also find it funny that the same person who complained about the Canton team de-emphasizing complex holds circa 2006-2010 is now arguing for the opposite. Basically what ice dance should look like coincides with whatever the top French team is doing...

 

[ddtpdx]

Coverage from US Channel with commentary from Ben.

SD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fWe31vGbZA

FD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQWL35k6RNc

 

[ddtpdx]

FD Press Conference with Scott answering a question about their performance (2:11 to 3:15 in the video).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GZpIX5Cssg

 

[Excidra]

I was absolutely mesmerized by their FS. MR continues to improve. One thing we know about V/M is that they are fighters. If you think they're going to hand this Oly Gold Medal away you have something else coming. The Olympic ice is slippery and anything can happen. P/C would have to be extremely clean and ON to take the gold medal. I have faith that V/M will end this illustrious career on a happy note. When the dust settles they will be recognized as legends and possibly the best ice dance team of all time. I am not worried at all. "Come what may."

 

[MsZem]

I have to admit my favorite program in all of figure skating is Aljona and Bruno's. Usually I prefer ice dance over pairs but this routine is an absolute dream and I have watched their performance over and over today.

Their programs are wonderful, and I think they've mentioned looking to ice dance as an inspiration in terms of program flow and intricacy. It doesn't hurt that John Kerr is himself a former ice dancer - not the most technically polished one, of course, but the Kerrs had such cool programs when they were competing and his work so far as a choreographer has been really good.

I'll admit that was totally OT

 

[Isabelle.G]

On a different note, there's a very festive gala finale: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JjlkoJW6f4
I just love Tessa&Scott's dancing to All I Want for Christmas

And there's their Long Time Running performance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAM9Ts-rpCQ

 

[IoanaC]

I was absolutely mesmerized by their FS. MR continues to improve. One thing we know about V/M is that they are fighters. If you think they're going to hand this Oly Gold Medal away you have something else coming. The Olympic ice is slippery and anything can happen. P/C would have to be extremely clean and ON to take the gold medal. I have faith that V/M will end this illustrious career on a happy note. When the dust settles they will be recognized as legends and possibly the best ice dance team of all time. I am not worried at all. "Come what may."

Happy to see some encouraging optimism on this thread. Because, really, after it's been established that Tessa and Scott have lost their easiness of blade due to old age, and that they don't even deserve second place... what could we still hope for?!

 

[Twilight1]

If Tessa and Scott win a silver medalat the Olympics they will still be the most celebrated ice dance medalists in the world beating Klimova and Ponomarenko.

People need to celebrate what they are doing not the behind the scenes crap that has ALWAYS been part of ice dance.

 

[lauravvv]

Their programs are wonderful, and I think they've mentioned looking to ice dance as an inspiration in terms of program flow and intricacy. It doesn't hurt that John Kerr is himself a former ice dancer - not the most technically polished one, of course, but the Kerrs had such cool programs when they were competing and his work so far as a choreographer has been really good.

Savchenko/Massot's FS for this season was choreographed by Cristopher Dean, not John Kerr. Of course, he is also an ice dancer, and a greater one than John Kerr at that .

 

[arakwafan2006]

Anyone saying that P/C's programs aren't very simple and open are deluding themselves, period. They're doing simple things at a high level of quality but they're still simple. And there's a serious lack of interdependent skating, which is a major aspect of what used to differentiate pairs and ice dance. Basically they skate in parallel instead of as a unit which is a lot less risky and makes it easier to skate clean.

I know I've said this before but I'd be a huge fan of P/C if they were a pair team. They're still young but right now I feel they're not showing some important elements of ice dancing (and with the way the judges are showering them with marks they will never have any incentive to do so). It's fine if you disagree, if you think what they're doing right now is what ice dance should look like. But to pretend that it isn't way more simple than their predecessors is some warped uber logic.

ETA I also find it funny that the same person who complained about the Canton team de-emphasizing complex holds circa 2006-2010 is now arguing for the opposite. Basically what ice dance should look like coincides with whatever the top French team is doing...

They’re beautiful no doubt but into sole elements its strait up crossovers

 

[skategal]

If Tessa and Scott win a silver medalat the Olympics they will still be the most celebrated ice dance medalists in the world beating Klimova and Ponomarenko.

People need to celebrate what they are doing not the behind the scenes crap that has ALWAYS been part of ice dance.

THIS!

They are on track to have won 5 Olympic medals in figure skating. (3 individual ice dance event and 2 team event).

That's a record of achievement that is unprecedented in the modern era of figure skating and will not be matched anytime soon.

It should be celebrated.

 

[volunteer]

Celebrating the talent and success of VM is not difficult, don't need to be reminded of this.
And if the behind the scenes crap overflows into the current negative narrative and potentially deprives them of a deserved gold medal, this also needs to be talked about. Unfortunately it involves discussing the programs of PC who are undoubtedly talented.
Now and in the future, long after VM have retired, fans should not, ever stop talking about the corruption in our beloved SPORT.

 

[puglover]

As I was driving home I was musing about the lead-up to both the Vancouver and Sochi Olympics for Tessa and Scott. As I recall, Tessa's legs were still very painful in Vancouver and although the public was not aware of the degree of added stress on them, they no doubt were worried. Prior to Sochi, they did not seem to have the free dance that built their confidence and issues in Canton must again been a cause for added worry. I am hopeful that this will be a much easier build up to Korea with them able to devote 100% of their energy to enjoying this 3rd experience. Come what may - I think they will control what they can control.

 

[Twilight1]

Celebrating the talent and success of VM is not difficult, don't need to be reminded of this.
And if the behind the scenes crap overflows into the current negative narrative and potentially deprives them of a deserved gold medal, this also needs to be talked about. Unfortunately it involves discussing the programs of PC who are undoubtedly talented.
Now and in the future, long after VM have retired, fans should not, ever stop talking about the corruption in our beloved SPORT.

The hard reality for some to admit is that Papadakis and Cizeron are also Olympic Gold medal worthy skaters and if they win on clean skates then they will be deserving champions as were Davis and White before them... and Virtue and Moir before them.

Perhaps politics are in line for P&C or perhaps the GPF was their consolation prize.

Ice is slippery and I am not sure who Skate Canada has their energy behind in South Korea. Could be Osmond or Radford & Duhamel and not Virtue and Moir.

The Olympic politicking since 2002 seem to like to spread the gold around globally and France's only shot at a medal for sure is P&C whereas Canada has outside shots in every discipline.

I love both teams and hope V&M win gold. I would prefer to see them win gold of any of Canadian skaters.

Honestly who knows what is going to happen.

 

[ddtpdx]

As I was driving home I was musing about the lead-up to both the Vancouver and Sochi Olympics for Tessa and Scott. As I recall, Tessa's legs were still very painful in Vancouver and although the public was not aware of the degree of added stress on them, they no doubt were worried. Prior to Sochi, they did not seem to have the free dance that built their confidence and issues in Canton must again been a cause for added worry. I am hopeful that this will be a much easier build up to Korea with them able to devote 100% of their energy to enjoying this 3rd experience. Come what may - I think they will control what they can control.

Unlike Sochi, I think we can take comfort in Tessa and Scott feeling that Marie-France and Patrice are in their corners. That alone will make it an easier journey no matter what happens.

 

[stephanie2006]

Does anyone here remember when it was announced that Tessa and Scott joined "Art on Ice"?

In 2015 it was a different situation because they were not competing at that time and Art on Ice seems to have also changed the strategy when it comes to announcing skaters now one by one. We might not know for a while but praying for them coming to Art on Ice or then Worlds in Milan. If not I'm dreaming to see "Long time running" live to the extent that I consider travelling to Canada to Stars on Ice....

 

[Sylvia]

Savchenko/Massot's FS for this season was choreographed by Cristopher Dean, not John Kerr. Of course, he is also an ice dancer, and a greater one than John Kerr at that .

(Sorry for the OT) @lauravvv, this reliable info was posted in the Kiss & Cry section:

Dean may still be listed because he did the earlier Flamenco SP. Now Kerr is the choreographer for both of S/M programs.

ETA that my above info turned out to be wrong - please refer to Rossig's post for correct S/M choreographer info: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...r-47-come-what-may.102436/page-7#post-5210725

In 2015 it was a different situation because they were not competing at that time and Art on Ice seems to have also changed the strategy when it comes to announcing skaters now one by one.

The first AOI show in Switzerland is scheduled for March 1st; PyeongChang Olympics closing ceremony is on Feb. 25.

 

[ddtpdx]

Ice dance 101 on a recent podcast by PJKwong with guest Carol Lane. Very few things most of us don't already know but there were a few points I found interesting, such as commentary on lifts (the first lifts to teach juniors) and the judging (not enough time for the judges to view the program as a whole and the argument for 2 panels of judges focusing on different components of PCS).

http://www.openkwongdore.com/2017/12/05/episode-46-carol-lane/