Tessa Virtue & Scott Moir # 47: Come What May...

[TSFRENCHFAN]

Hey everyone I am still taking time off the board but sending a card to Tessa and Scott at the Patinage Québec address they said I could and wanted to give the chance to everyone who wanted to participate to send an encouraging, cheering message to them. If you would like to send something please e-mail me at [email protected] before December 15th. Just explain why you are sending it clearly and where you're from please.Thank you!

 

[nunner]

Guys. It's neither the music, nor the programs. V/M have two great programs, they love them and are skating the crap out of them, and are also constantly improving them. Had they skated to a classical piece, the narrative would have been that they were repeating themselves. Had they chosen a lyrical piece, "Oh, they're copying P/C". It's simply that they are not number 1 in the judges' preferences. Whatever they might have skated to. It's as simple and as frustrating as that.

This all day long. I agree with this post 1000%. They love what they are doing and are skating better than ever before.

 

[Andora]

I honestly think both options can be true, that the fix is in, AND they don't have great programs this year.

At least this time they'll lose to another phenomenal team, as opposed to Sochi.

 

[The Accordion]

There are two great teams at the top. I believe that anyone saying otherwise is confused or has too strong a bias. I agree with the theory that they are close enough that it could / should come down to the day of - mistakes or lack thereof, levels, GOE, the tentativeness or attack of the programs on those days.
So the thing that is bothering me about the marks at the GPF is the uniformity of the higher marks in PCS. Obviously there are things we can't see on screen that you can sese live. I have read that P and C are faster - and if that is true then I see how it can affect the skating skills mark. Maybe in the arena there was a clearer difference in the performance the day of - and that is why P and C have higher PE mark. Maybe even the IN mark. But what about the rest? With the teams both being so strong - to me it seems suspect that P and C were found superior by the judges in every aspect of PCS.
Are their transitions and Choreography so obviously superior? I would feel more at ease if there were some variation in those marks. Surely with the teams both so strong, it would make sense for V and M to come out on top in at least 1 of the PCS marks? That is what seems a bit suspect to me.

Also - I think there is an negative overreaction in this thread and on these boards about their program and music choices. Lots of people in the "real world" love them. I adore MR and see it getting better and stronger with every outing. I don't love the movie and don't listen to the music at all, but I was in AWE at Skate Canada and am thrilled to see it even stronger here. I also very much appreciate and enjoy their SD. I love that they are doing programs they love and don't think the hand wringing here is doing anyone any good. I can't wait to see them both at Nationals.

 

[marbri]

Accordian. Your whole post is spot on.

 

[allezfred]

Are their transitions and Choreography so obviously superior?

Yes.

 

[NinjaTurtles]

Yes.

Perhaps choreography, but I think there is a lot of room to argue about transitions.

 

[The Accordion]

Yes.

Speaking of bias

 

[marbri]

Yes.

I honestly don't know why you insist on acting like the type of poster you used to mock. Surely this sort of thing must get old at some point for you.

 

[Golden1]

Well, I don't think that PC are skating on the same level as VM do and I don't appreciate being called "confused" for thinking that. I also wonder who decides about the bias of other people. Am I biased because of my opinion or are you (general you) biased because of yours? I basically agree with everything Deborah Wilker said in her discussion with Jonathan Beyer (The Skating Lesson) on twitter. I just post her comments on V/M and leave the P/C ones out, so that this doesn't turn in an argument about P/C:

In terms of pure edges + actual skills #VirtueMoir are in a class by themselves - have been for eons.

Freeze-frame any #VirtureMoir perf: Extension, toe point, arms, head, speed; never a flat; they're as close to pure-skills-perfection as I've ever seen in 50+ yrs in this sport, over all 4 disciplines.

Global skating should be showcasing #VirtueMoir as gold standard just as Hamill, Peggy Fleming, G&G, T&D, Janet Lynn were once-in-a-generation greats.

To watch as global #skating summarily and mystifyingly tosses aside all-time greats #virtuemoir, who also happen to be incredibly marketable in an era when the sport needs that desperately -- doesn't inspire armor fantasies -- it fills me with shame for my sport.

https://twitter.com/search?q=deborah wilker&src=typd

Unfortunately I couldn't watch Tessa and Scott live today because of work. So I saw the result first and wasn't surprised. After the SD I expected that but it didn't make it easier to see Tessa and Scott so disappointed. Now I just hope that they will have an amazing competition at Nationals which will give them all the confidence they will need for the Olympics. Only two more competitions...

 

[Goody2shoes]

Read through comments. Agree to disagree on some. Please let it rest about them choosing MR as their last program of their career. Those who still hate it no matter what, let us who like/love it, enjoy it in peace ...

Let’s just talk about the changes they've made on MR. For me, it’s a big YES! More importantly, they delivered on both programs at GPF! So proud The music ending... someone has been lurking here too (maybe)?

http://www.rockerskating.com/news/2017/12/9/2017-grand-prix-final-results-free-dance

 

[bbkenn]

I like that they changed the end note as it's more pleasing to the ear like that post way back when suggested. I forgot her name but she has a blog and she was talking about the notes for the ending. Sounds like someone, I know, Iggy's blog; was listening. Also I do think the judges love Moonlight Sonata more than MR so it will come down to the levels. I think P&C don't have to worry they'll lose as long as they skate perfectly, so they'll have lots of confidence going into the Olympics and V&M will have to hope that P&C make mistakes which is not the optimum going in. I feel so sad that I won't get to see them skate after the Olympics and I will always be thankful they came back because I think they made every other team pick up their game. I wish the compulsories would come back so we could truly compare the skating skills which now seem more subjective.

 

[Jeanne7]

Read through comments. Agree to disagree on some. Please let it rest about them choosing MR as their last program of their career. Those who still hate it no matter what, let us who like/love it, enjoy it in peace ...

Let’s just talk about the changes they've made on MR. For me, it’s a big YES! More importantly, they delivered on both programs at GPF! So proud The music ending... someone has been lurking here too (maybe)?

http://www.rockerskating.com/news/2017/12/9/2017-grand-prix-final-results-free-dance

I so agree. These ARE their programs, like them or not, so please let it go and enjoy them. I had tears in my eyes at the end of their FD it was so spellbinding. I love the subtle changes, increase in speed - they absolutely rocked it.

 

[MarieM]

IMO the Roxanne part should end the program, because it builds to something the come what may part never gets. It doesn't make sense with the movie, but as far as winning in the audience, it'd be better IMO.

 

[ddtpdx]

Well looks like silver it is for V&M at the OG again..oh wow this must be awful for them..what a horrible season to have to go through leading up to the OG knowing you are not going to win again, but I feared this would happen when they chose music from MR..never liked the movie & the pieces of music just do NOT scream OG games powerful music to me. They needed to pull something huge out of the bag for this comeback leading up to the OG & MR was not it sadly..they should have listened to their coaches.
Also I just don't get why this music was so important to skate to in an Olympic season, like really? MR really?
I guess they have to go back to the drawing board now & decide what to do because it painfully obvious that if they take this program in Payenchong & BOTH teams skate perfect..they are NOT winning..

Why MR holds a special place for them? Perhaps because as Tessa said in one interview of what Scott told her before the Sochi SD "No matter what, we're together. No matter what, I love you. No matter what, we are going to enjoy this". For some reason, I remember that part of the interview vividly (starting at 3:20 mark below).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HvybJba5fk

Kidding aside, I would love to here them talk about why they feel so connected to MR.

 

[Jeanne7]

IMO the Roxanne part should end the program, because it builds to something the come what may part never gets. It doesn't make sense with the movie, but as far as winning in the audience, it'd be better IMO.

Why? I’ve never seen the movie & don’t intend to, tho I understand it’s basic concept. It’s art.

 

[allezfred]

Speaking of bias

Never said I was unbiased.

I honestly don't know why you insist on acting like the type of poster you used to mock. Surely this sort of thing must get old at some point for you.

I used to mock posters for having a little bit of a debate about the merits of dance programmes?

 

[volunteer]

VM don't need to change their programs. They are the most intricate and difficult programs out there, no one else could skate them to their potential as VM are doing. They are legends and their talent is boundless. They are just exquisite.
The fact that there has been shade thrown at them from all sides, other federation presidents (ahem) and reporters just speaks to how fabulous their skating is.

 

[carpis]

VM don't need to change their programs. They are the most intricate and difficult programs out there, no one else could skate them to their potential as VM are doing. They are legends and their talent is boundless. They are just exquisite.
The fact that there has been shade thrown at them from all sides, other federation presidents (ahem) and reporters just speaks to how fabulous their skating is.

THANK YOU

 

[Rafter]

I love the Moulin Rouge FD and thinks it comes off way better live in the rink than on YouTube or TV, but the program IS a risk. V/M have got to know that. If they came out and skated something more classical or lyrical again the haters would all say they've done that before, it's nothing new, etc.

The type of program that P/C are doing (floaty, classical), Virtue and Moir have already done -- *7* years ago when they won the Olympic Gold medal. They also did it with Valse Triste and UoC So I don't blame them for wanting to do something new and different.

What I have a problem with is how the PCS is being judged. V&M should not be behind P/C in Transitions, Performance and Execution in either program. Skating Skills is splitting hairs between the two teams although I definitely think Tessa is stronger than Papadakis in Skating Skills and dance-wise (body positions, leg extension etc). Virtue and Moir's FD is way more difficult to interpret and perform than Moonlight Sonata, which theme-wise is very static and one-note.

Also Virtue and Moir are not being rewarded by international panels for their musicality and versatility (or musical versatility, however you want to say it). Which they have IN SPADES more than P/C who are more one trick ponies stylistically.

On a different note, I'm not loving Tessa and Scott's new SD costumes. I hope there's another, better set coming out for the Olympics.

 

[Rafter]

One more thing, the Japanese crowd reaction to Virtue and Moir's FD seemed much louder and more enthusiastic than for P/C. Hopefully that is a small consolation for Tessa and Scott.

 

[Zazy]

I used to mock posters for having a little bit of a debate about the merits of dance programmes?

lol You know perfectly well trolling VM fans doesn't equal debate.

 

[arakwafan2006]

I finally grew up and watched Pap/Ciz’s And it’s perhaps one of the finest dances. One thing , i don’t agree it was more difficult. I didn’t say that when people were arguing it with Madison and Evan because i don’t like that team and because i believe the French are infinitely better. Tessa and Scott’s MR... it’s actually wonderful and more complex. Way less two foot skating. I mean watch it objectively.

The result is already determined i see. I was ready to see Tessa and Scott win the short and not the long but after watching ( i love the French but just want V/M to win) them both , MR is the most difficult and it was masterfully executed. The ending reworked , especially the final Note... i feel bad for not having faith in them all along.

This is tough to watch play out. I get the fuss about the French. I’m with everyone. I don’t believe Moonlight is the most difficult vehicle.

 

[Zazy]

The judges don't care about difficulty, it had already been trending downwards for some time but with the rise of P/C the dumbing down of ice dance went to another level. VM's FD is actually very open compared to what they were doing 4 years ago, they don't have a choice if they want to be in any way competitive. And even so, they're still on another planet compared to P/C.

The skaters aren't dumb, they get the message. Which means that with every year ice dance becomes more like pairs.

 

[puglover]

Well, just me but I remember lots of criticism over Carmen and on the Worlds tape in London, Tracy Wilson is heard to say "well, it's not everybody's favorite". It was placed second, but it is now remembered as creative, original and great. Funny Face was not a resounding favorite but it did win against what I thought was D&W's best program ever. I would like to believe judges can look beyond the music, dress, style - and truly look at the dancing but then - maybe other things impact their marks. P&C are a newer, younger team, full of talent, and may take this Olympic gold. At least, this seems like a great coaching team and all seem happy and I am thrilled to watch them. I hope Scott becomes a dance coach with Marie-France and team. What a marvelous asset he would be. I would say, Tessa also, but I suspect she will do something with her education.

 

[MarieM]

Really, I wonder why I even bother reading the two übers topics.

No ice dance hasn't become easier. What P&C do is difficult, the fact you think it's easier is a testament to how well they do it. They have that one only advantage over V&M: they've been used to do it from the start.
Look at how all the teams are trying to create that same seamless style. None is getting there. Because that's not easy to do.

V&M on the other hand have been trained to SHOW the complexity of what they do. They've always taken pride in it. Because to them, it's how they see themselves and the sport. Show them "Oh wow what a difficult element that is". But by doing so, they're losing the easyness all the other teams are now achieving. Being older also doesn't help keep up with the easyness of blade they used to have.
They've been trying to add that other layer, the seamless skating, since last season, but IMO it's not their style and they can't do it. Because that goes against everything they've ever been taught so far.
And IMO, that's where Moulin Rouge lacks in the second part. I concur with Nmsis. They should end with the Tango. Because the tango is what they're best at, and it kicks ass. The "Come What May" is absolutly not what they do best.

Their biggest problem as far as I'm concerned is that horrid SD. They probably thought to replicate the Prince SD, but IMO, they're too angular and lose out the latin feel entirely. And that dress on Tessa is a crime. Whoever designed it either hates her, either has no idea how poor it looks on them and their program.
LESS IS MORE. That is something they should try, and that would help their SD way more than all that over the top thing they're shoving down our throats.

 

[marbri]

I used to mock posters for having a little bit of a debate about the merits of dance programmes?

Ok. We will pretend that is what you have been doing

 

[volunteer]

Oh my goodness.
Now ice dance that looks simple is in reality complex? A team who is skating a complex program has a problem because it looks too complex?
The emperor is wearing new clothes for sure.

 

[puglover]

Just watched the free dance and love it more than ever!! I'm sold - so thank you Tessa and Scott.

 

[wickedwitch]

I love the Moulin Rouge FD and thinks it comes off way better live in the rink than on YouTube or TV, but the program IS a risk. V/M have got to know that. If they came out and skated something more classical or lyrical again the haters would all say they've done that before, it's nothing new, etc.

The type of program that P/C are doing (floaty, classical), Virtue and Moir have already done -- *7* years ago when they won the Olympic Gold medal. They also did it with Valse Triste and UoC So I don't blame them for wanting to do something new and different.

When I was first watching this program during the Autumn Classic, I was absolutely entranced by the first half. I was amazed and was thinking that this may be their best FD ever. And then the music change happened and all that vanished for me.

V/M didn't need to do a lyrical program like P/C. A full four minutes of tango would have been amazing. (I personally would have loved to see a blues program.) Because their power is what sets them apart from P/C and everyone else.

I don't know if having a different program would have changed the results. But I don't think MR, as a whole, is anything special.