Bobrova and Soloviev out of Worlds

[skateboy]

Time for some levity in this revolving door discussion... especially as it seems to have disappeared down the Rabbit Hole quite some time ago.

TRITE HABIT
(To the tune "White Rabbit," with apologies to Jefferson Airplane)

Your alternate lyrics are always so brilliant!

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

Why split hairs? Semantic drivel to appease the fans? These athletes, coaches and doctors abused a medicine by using it for purposes it was not intended, the definition of substance abuse. They used it to enhance cardiovascular training and performances in competitions. They did it in tennis, figure skating and speed skating. It has been ABused ubiquitously in Eastern European sports for a long time, only now becoming "banned" by WADA.

Legal, not legal, banned,not banned. They all ABUSED and CHEATED.

I'm done trying to explain it in any simpler terms, my opinion that is - they abused and cheated. No further discussion is necessary about cheating. We have to wait and see how the sporting world responds to the cheaters. That is a better topic for discussion.

So you think there are elite athletes out there that do not take some sorts of 'supplements' and 'vitamin injections'? Everybody does it, in some way or the other. This degree of naivete is shocking.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Wait till WADA gets into Chinese herbs and diet... herbal extracts, turtle blood, seal testicles..... (since it's not available in North America and Western Europe then it must be bad.. )
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/chinese-athletes.html#

 

[skateboy]

So you think there are elite athletes out there that do not take some sorts of 'supplements' and 'vitamin injections'? Everybody does it, in some way or the other. This degree of naivete is shocking.

I don't believe that all elite athletes do it. As an example, I doubt that the Shibs are getting inoculated with performance enhancing shots. Do you think they are?

 

[gingercat]

Performance enhancing drugs are not approved for many reasons. Has anyone thought that it is also about trying to keep the playing filed as equal as possible? Each athlete comes to the game with certain advantages or disadvantages, adding performance enhancing drugs in to the equation is just not right. I can not believe some of what I am reading here.

 

[Sylvia]

Excerpt from the end of the AP article posted in the other doping thread: http://news.yahoo.com/world-anti-doping-agency-says-99-meldonium-cases-153106658.html
Russian Sports Minister Vitaly Mutko is quoted as saying:

"I share collective responsibility," he said, adding that the answer was not to reduce Russia's reliance on sports medications but to develop new drugs that are not banned.
"When we aren't creating our own, we get caught using Latvian or Chinese substances," Mutko said. "We should have our own scientific research activity in high-level sport."

 

[MsZem]

Performance enhancing drugs are not approved for many reasons. Has anyone thought that it is also about trying to keep the playing filed as equal as possible? Each athlete comes to the game with certain advantages or disadvantages, adding performance enhancing drugs in to the equation is just not right. I can not believe some of what I am reading here.

That's one of the most frequently made arguments. The thing is, if a substance is not banned, everyone can use it if they want. How is that not a level playing field?

I still find health-related arguments the only persuasive ones.

 

[Meoima]

Excerpt from the end of the AP article posted in the other doping thread: http://news.yahoo.com/world-anti-doping-agency-says-99-meldonium-cases-153106658.html
Russian Sports Minister Vitaly Mutko is quoted as saying:

Okayyyy so their solution is that? Lmao

 

[clairecloutier]

"I share collective responsibility," he said, adding that the answer was not to reduce Russia's reliance on sports medications but to develop new drugs that are not banned.

And when WADA notices widespread use of new drugs among Russian athletes, then those drugs will also go on the banned list. Just like meldonium.

Maybe the answer is instead to clean up their act??

 

[skatefan]

Excerpt from the end of the AP article posted in the other doping thread: http://news.yahoo.com/world-anti-doping-agency-says-99-meldonium-cases-153106658.html
Russian Sports Minister Vitaly Mutko is quoted as saying:

Just WOW I have no words ...

So you think there are elite athletes out there that do not take some sorts of 'supplements' and 'vitamin injections'? Everybody does it, in some way or the other.

I think you are wrong.

 

[marbri]

That quote right there by Russian Sports Minister Vitaly Mutko is why this will never change and why there will always be suspicion. And you can read the same attitude in posts here.

And if he gets his wish and his own lab so that they don't have to rely on Latvian or Chinese PEDs then they can just pump out a new one each year so that whenever WADA starts noticing one thing and bans it they are ready with the next. And then people will argue that there are no proven side effects (because no one was monitoring it for that reason) , it's just like popping Vitamin C, and no different to a post menopausal woman who doesn't have to deal with period cramps while she eats apples all day (or seal testicles).

 

[MacMadame]

hese athletes, coaches and doctors abused a medicine by using it for purposes it was not intended, the definition of substance abuse.

The definition of substance abuse is:
overindulgence in or dependence on an addictive substance, especially alcohol or drugs.

There is nothing in the definition that says using a medicine for an off-label use is substance abuse. (Because it isn't.)

So you think there are elite athletes out there that do not take some sorts of 'supplements' and 'vitamin injections'? Everybody does it, in some way or the other. This degree of naivete is shocking.

I think you are wrong.

And I think you are wrong.

Do you really think athletes don't take supplements? Vitamins? Some of which are injected? Of course they do. Why shouldn't they if the substance hasn't been banned and it helps them do better at their job? The idea that athletes shouldn't even take a vitamin if they think it will help them recover faster because somehow this is cheating makes no sense to me.

I know a lot of elite-level athletes in various sports. They all take *something*. Heck in some sports, they not only take stuff, but they start their own companies to sell their magic potions to others. The profit from sales helps with training expenses.

 

[jiejie]

Mutko's quote:
"I share collective responsibility," he said, adding that the answer was not to reduce Russia's reliance on sports medications but to develop new drugs that are not banned.
"When we aren't creating our own, we get caught using Latvian or Chinese substances," Mutko said. "We should have our own scientific research activity in high-level sport."

I'm shocked, and yet because this is Russian officialdom, I'm not shocked that there's no moral/ethical compass in evidence here. Underlying Mutko's statement is an implicit assumption that Russian athletes cannot win high-level sport competitions without the help of drugs. Coming from a senior governmental sporting official, I find his lack of confidence in and view of Russian athletes, as profoundly sad as the stamp of official approval on cheating.

 

[Vagabond]

And I think you are wrong.

Do you really think athletes don't take supplements? Vitamins? Some of which are injected? Of course they do. Why shouldn't they if the substance hasn't been banned and it helps them do better at their job? The idea that athletes shouldn't even take a vitamin if they think it will help them recover faster because somehow this is cheating makes no sense to me.

You are not addressing the issue at hand, which is whether all athletes take "supplements" and "vitamin injections," i.e., whether they use performance enhancing drugs that purport to be something else, not whether they take actual supplements and vitamins, injected or not.

So you think there are elite athletes out there that do not take some sorts of 'supplements' and 'vitamin injections'? Everybody does it, in some way or the other. This degree of naivete is shocking.

I don't think that all elite athletes do this, though I am sure that many do. I suspect that it probably occurs more in some sports more than others (e.g., in track and field more than in rowing or sailing).

I could be mistaken, but I am making no more of an assumption that someone who asserts that all elite athletes take performance enhancing drugs.

As for taking actual supplements and vitamin injections, I strongly suspect that not all elite athletes do so. I can think of at least three reasons why not. First, doing so runs the risk of unintentionally injesting a prohibited substance. Second, products marketed as supplements sometimes do not contain the product that is ostensible being sold. Third, it isn't at all clear that a person, particularly an elite athlete, with no vitamin deficiency actually benefits from taking these products.

Indeed, there are considerable risks to taking some vitamins (Vitamin D, for example), if you don't have a deficiency.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevens...-six-vitamins-you-shouldnt-take/#32ebc51b4ba4

 

[Willin]

I think the thing is - fair or not (probably not) - most elite athletes take supplements, but extra scrutiny is only afforded to those who are easiest to catch or are most suspicious.

For instance, during the Lance Armstrong era of cycling, it was an open secret that everyone was taking some sort of performance enhancer. Lance Armstrong was just the easiest target and the one with the most public suspicion, so of course they're going to show more scrutiny. Certain US sprinters are known or suspected to be doping, so they test them a lot more and retroactively test samples when they get better technology to catch them.

This tendency to follow reputation or suspicion means that certain people, federations, sports, etc. get more scrutiny. That means more testing, more supplements common in those countries being banned, etc. Because of the Track & Field scandal and the implications for the Russian drug testing lab for winter sports, it would make sense that WADA would want to scrutinize Russian athletes more than those from other countries. This could affect if they are allowed to compete in Rio and other major international sporting events, so WADA and other sports federations (i.e. the ISU) will want to know more about how widespread this is and how well Russia follows the rules even under that increased scrutiny.

As for developing new drugs, well, that's what the other countries do... At the same time, because of increased scrutiny and that blatant statement, I'd be willing to bet WADA will continue implementing more bans on Russian-made supplements and drugs for years to come.

Personally, I'll be interested to see continuing studies on the long term health of athletes who took these drugs. Not just data on joint problems or concussions, but stuff on cardiac, kidney, and liver health...

 

[Sylvia]

Maria Sharapova and the Pharmaceutical Quest for an Edge: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/12/u...and-the-pharmaceutical-quest-for-an-edge.html
Excerpts from the beginning and end:

It’s understandable that athletes at the highest end of the performance spectrum might look for any gain, any edge at all, that might help propel them to the top. Ego, fame and unbelievable amounts of money are at stake. But people all over the athletic spectrum are convinced that one supplement or another will make them healthier, faster or stronger, while other people seek a different sort of edge with drugs they hope will improve cognition.

There’s no magic here. We’ve become more and more successful at treating deficits and deficiencies in people. Those same therapies are not intended to improve healthy individuals. In our eternal quest to be better, however, many are willing to act without evidence in the hope they can leap ahead. Unfortunately, most of those people are getting all the harms of the substances they take, but few of the benefits.

Russia Beyond The Headlines article: Who's to blame for the meldonium: Russia’s athletes, doctors or officials?

Professor Andrei Smolensky, director of the National Research Institute of Athletic Medicine at the Russian State University of Physical Education, Sport, Youth and Tourism (SCOLIPE), which has prepared numerous Soviet and Russian Olympic champions, agrees with Mutko.
"The doctors of the athletics federations are to blame for the story with meldonium,” he said. “They are not always careful in their responsibilities. WADA has severe rules that must unquestionably be followed.”
According to Smolensky, meldonium remains in the blood for “up to three months,” which is why the athletes had to stop taking the drug in October.
“Our doctors did not have the situation under control," he said.

This is the first time I've seen a doctor quoted (rightly or wrongly?) as saying: "... meldonium remains in the blood for 'up to three months,' which is why the athletes had to stop taking the drug in October."

The RBTH article also quotes Alisher Aminov, vice president of the International Foundation of Support for Legal Initiatives, who believes that Russian Sports Minister Vitaly Mutko should be the one to resign (or step aside temporarily):

"The athletes were given banned drugs recommended by one center that was employing doctors and receiving instructions from Minister Mutko, the individual who more than anyone is interested in medals and victories,” said Aminov.
“The most effective way to overcome this dishonesty in Russian sport is to launch an independent public inquiry with the involvement of international organizations. Mutko must temporarily be removed from office until the end of the inquiry," he said.

ETA:

Can anyone find the link to the Russian interview with athletics doctor Alexander Yardoshvili who said:

"Mildronate reduces the amount of creatine and synthesizes fatty acids. As a result, oxygen is freed that begins to actively nourish the zones that need it,” said Yardoshvili in an interview with the Gazeta.ru publication.
“Also, the drug produces magnesium in the organism and this element improves the activity of bones, ligaments, tendons and muscles, the whole musculoskeletal system," he said.

 

[JJH]

To me, the use of pharmaceuticals negates the point of athletic competition. No longer is the competition among athletes to test who has the most talent and skill on a given day. The competition is among pharmaceutical agencies to test who can develop the most effective cocktail for a specific sport.

 

[hanca]

To me, the use of pharmaceuticals negates the point of athletic competition. No longer is the competition among athletes to test who has the most talent and skill on a given day. The competition is among pharmaceutical agencies to test who can develop the most effective cocktail for a specific sport.

Well, then USA should not fear anything. Their pharmaceutical production is quite advanced!

 

[MacMadame]

You are not addressing the issue at hand, which is whether all athletes take "supplements" and "vitamin injections," i.e., whether they use performance enhancing drugs that purport to be something else, not whether they take actual supplements and vitamins, injected or not.

I don't think that all elite athletes do this, though I am sure that many do. I suspect that it probably occurs more in some sports more than others (e.g., in track and field more than in rowing or sailing).

Oh, okay. I agree with you on that.

As for taking actual supplements and vitamin injections, I strongly suspect that not all elite athletes do so.

I am sure that 100% of them do not. After all, in everything in life, there is always "that guy."

But I am pretty sure that at the elite levels, 99.9999% do. Every elite level athletes who has been asked about it in an article or a talk they gave, will list off stuff they take and what they eat and so far, every answer I have ever read includes at least some vitamins and (usually) some supplements.

In particular, elite athletes in many sports are very careful of their post-recovery nutrition and it's a lot easier to mix up a shake that has the exact right stuff in it than to come up with meals that are that focused.

As the article Sylvia linked to says, they are all looking for an edge and this is an easy way to make sure that base is covered.

 

[JJH]

I believe in the talent and training of Russian athletes. I don't think they need any crutches or boosts. I would like to see an even playing field within their national competitions. They are too good for this nonsense.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

To me, the use of pharmaceuticals negates the point of athletic competition. No longer is the competition among athletes to test who has the most talent and skill on a given day. The competition is among pharmaceutical agencies to test who can develop the most effective cocktail for a specific sport.

Then you should quit watching sports. 'Shakes', 'protein powders', 'vitamins' - it's all pharmaceutical substances. Walk into any hockey trainer's room - see what's there. Heck, Gatorade is a chemical substance that's advertised to improve athletic performance. There are thousands of supplements out there. Where do we draw the line??

 

[troika]

ETA:

Can anyone find the link to the Russian interview with athletics doctor Alexander Yardoshvili who said:[/QUOTE]
http://www.footballtop.ru/news/alek...zhet-otdelatsya-dvumya-godami-diskvalifikacii

 

[Sabrine Tornston]

YI don't think that all elite athletes do this, though I am sure that many do. I suspect that it probably occurs more in some sports more than others (e.g., in track and field more than in rowing or sailing).

Supplements are part of any athletic training process. The chemical composition of the supplements is complex - it's not as simple as Vitamin C. Reality is, athletes do whatever it takes to gain an edge. Within legal boundaries in most cases.... But there is a thin line between allowed and not allowed. What's ok today may be banned tomorrow. Anyone who believes there are world-class athletes out there that do not take anything 'chemical' to improve their bodies performance is simply wrong.

 

[vireo]

It's ridiculous to equate anything and everything an athlete does to maximize performance, then conclude it's therefore not tenable to discriminate between these things. An athlete who eats a chicken sandwich is ingesting a substance that will promote protein synthesis in his/her muscles. An athlete who swallows anabolic sterioids is ingesting a substance that will promote protein synthesis in his/her muscles. The fact that eating chicken and taking steroids are both means to a broadly comparable end does not make them equivalent. And it doesn't mean that anabolic steroids shouldn't be banned because some athletes eat chicken, and that helps them build muscle too, so what's the diff?

Likewise, there may be gray areas in the continuum of effects various substances have on performance, but that doesn't invalidate efforts to draw lines, make distinctions, and arrive at decisions on which substances should be permitted in sports.

 

[taz'smum]

So you think there are elite athletes out there that do not take some sorts of 'supplements' and 'vitamin injections'? Everybody does it, in some way or the other. This degree of naivete is shocking.

It depends on what you are classing as supplements and vitamin injections.
I know first hand, that at least two Russian elite athletes don't take vitamin injections or any other 'supplements', unless you count Calcium & Vitamin D3 tablets needed due to lactose intolerance!!
They are paranoid not to take anything at all just in case it might be doping, to the level that they are questioning if even homeopathic remedies are safe to take.

 

[Vagabond]

But I am pretty sure that at the elite levels, 99.9999% do. Every elite level athletes who has been asked about it in an article or a talk they gave, will list off stuff they take and what they eat and so far, every answer I have ever read includes at least some vitamins and (usually) some supplements.

Which leaves open the question of how many interviewees aren't asked the question or are asked the question and say no, and the information is deemed too trite to publish.

Consider this:

BRITISH ROWING POLICY STATEMENT ON THE USE OF SUPPLEMENTS

The position of the GB Rowing Team Medical and Science Committee is that members of the GB Rowing Team and national squads are strongly advised against the arbitrary use of supplements, which is in keeping with the policy of the British Olympic Association.

For these rowers supplements may be prescribed or advised by the GB Rowing Team Chief Medical Officer or Lead Nutritionist if a rower’s diet is found to be deficient in a particular micronutrient or group of micronutrients. This will only occur after careful analysis of the rower’s dietary intake, assessing deficiencies and inadequacies.

In the sport in general, no vitamin or mineral supplements should be required if a rower is consuming adequate energy from a variety of foods to maintain bodyweight. For those rowers following a vegetarian diet or who need to make weight, individual dietary assessment is advised.

Little is known about nutrient-nutrient interactions on health and performance, but there is evidence that ill health can be provoked by a number of supplements and that there is a small but genuine risk of producing a positive doping test.

Dr. Ann Redgrave, the Chief Medical Officer of the Great Britain Rowing Team and one of the two signatories, is the wife of Steve Redgrave, five-time Olympic Gold Medalist (and six-time Olympic medalist) in rowing and a former British National in bobsleigh (i.e., bobsled).

And here's what Dr. Redgrave's husband had to say on the matter:

Self-belief is probably the most crucial factor in sporting success. The bodies are roughly equal, the training is similar, the techniques can be copied, what separates the achievers is nothing as tangible as split times or kilograms. It is the iron in the mind, not the supplements, that wins medals.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ol...teve-Redgrave-winning-is-all-in-the-mind.html

I doubt you'll come up with an interview in which Steve Redgrave says he takes vitamins or supplements, much less without a prescription from his wife or another physician. And you probably won't find one from anyone who has been on the Great Britain Rowing Team at all recently.

 

[Xela M]

You are not addressing the issue at hand, which is whether all athletes take "supplements" and "vitamin injections," i.e., whether they use performance enhancing drugs that purport to be something else, not whether they take actual supplements and vitamins, injected or not.



I don't think that all elite athletes do this, though I am sure that many do. I suspect that it probably occurs more in some sports more than others (e.g., in track and field more than in rowing or sailing).

I could be mistaken, but I am making no more of an assumption that someone who asserts that all elite athletes take performance enhancing drugs.

As for taking actual supplements and vitamin injections, I strongly suspect that not all elite athletes do so. I can think of at least three reasons why not. First, doing so runs the risk of unintentionally injesting a prohibited substance. Second, products marketed as supplements sometimes do not contain the product that is ostensible being sold. Third, it isn't at all clear that a person, particularly an elite athlete, with no vitamin deficiency actually benefits from taking these products.

Indeed, there are considerable risks to taking some vitamins (Vitamin D, for example), if you don't have a deficiency.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevens...-six-vitamins-you-shouldnt-take/#32ebc51b4ba4

You think there is less doping in rowing of all sports?!?!

 

[skatefan]

And I think you are wrong.

Do you really think athletes don't take supplements? Vitamins? Some of which are injected? Of course they do. Why shouldn't they if the substance hasn't been banned and it helps them do better at their job? The idea that athletes shouldn't even take a vitamin if they think it will help them recover faster because somehow this is cheating makes no sense to me.

I know a lot of elite-level athletes in various sports. They all take *something*. Heck in some sports, they not only take stuff, but they start their own companies to sell their magic potions to others. The profit from sales helps with training expenses.

I also know personally a number of elite level athletes - and they DO NOT take *something*. I am not saying none of them do, I was replying to a number of posts here which categorically state that ALL athletes take *something*. That is not true. Your experience and knowledge is different from mine. But that does not make my knowledge false.

 

[Meoima]

I also know personally a number of elite level athletes - and they DO NOT take *something*. I am not saying none of them do, I was replying to a number of posts here which categorically state that ALL athletes take *something*. That is not true. Your experience and knowledge is different from mine. But that does not make my knowledge false.

In short: many athletes take "something", many do not take.

 

[Vagabond]

You think there is less doping in rowing of all sports?!?!

While far from dispositive, Wikipedia is your friend.

Doping cases in rowing: 2 names listed.

Doping cases in athletics: About a gazillion names listed.