Gymnastics News #15

[ilovesalchows]

Edited. Oh you mean Maggie looked good?

I think Gabby is like Leyva, she just is so pretty when she hits. Not a lot of deductions. Beam would have been a nice score without the fall

 

[Karpenko]

Wow the US men really blew it on pommels, I'm really sorry to see that. Get it togetha.

I think Marta's choice sends a big message to Maggie - hit all four sets and you're going to Rio. She's already thinking ahead IMO. This will be a huge test for her but I think she's going to handle it. I'm really surprised at how well she competed in prelims, especially considering all of the mayhem with the lineups etc.

 

[VGThuy]

With Maggie doing an untested UB over Simone, it honestly would have been better to just have 4 AAers in prelims and let Kocian do bars/beam and Skinner do floor and vault even with her downgraded FX and fuglier Cheng (even though I loathe her gymnastics and her "dance"). Dowell added nothing to the team and even embarrassingly missed her music cue when no other gymnast on the team (or in the competition I'm assuming) did so. She even scored the lowest any American has scored since the code of points was implemented. I know hindsight is 20/20, but I can't help putting Dowell on the team was more of a message to Skinner.

 

[Karpenko]

Putting Dowell on the team had everything to do with her UB and not missing it until it mattered most IMO. Her elite career is over until Marta is gone. It's so cut throat but it's true. She had her worst routine ever at the most important moment, 10 months before the Olympics. Marta probably had Mattie and Sacramone flashbacks and this will be her very last Olympic team, she won't forget unless Brenna wins the Olympic Trials (or is 2nd behind Simone).

Bailie Key must've really dropped the ball at camp, she could've easily qualified to the AA and UB final based on qualifying. Skinner made herself a non-factor because of the regression on floor, Kocian/Dowell would've been a better option on that event and her vaults wouldn't have medaled in this field.

 

[VGThuy]

True. I'm just thinking that Skinner would have actually contributed something to the team with her Amanar and her extra tenths would have been comparable to whatever extra tenths Dowell could have potentially given the U.S. on bars. She would've at least done team finals and not be useless. And at least Skinner would have been a proven choice whereas Dowell wasn't used in the past two Worlds for a reason. Also, would Dowell have been a better option over Skinner for floor anyway? Dowell is capped out at 14.000 whereas I can't help but think Skinner would have scored better even with her floor regression. I mean form and line and dance is horrific, but so is Aly's (who I think got even worse in that area since 2012) and she scored above Gabby.

 

[Seerek]

MAG - if my calculations are correct
JAP: 2AA, 5EF
CHN: 2 AA, 6EF
GB: 2AA, 5EF
RUS: 2AA, 1 EF!
USA: 1AA, 9EF!

That's interesting - Manrique Larduet of Cuba (not with a full team) on his own earned 1AA, 3EF.

So then by that logic Manrique > RUS ?!?

 

[Karpenko]

Skinner had a big d score last year, without the Moors and downgrading to a 2/1 on FX I'm guessing she would've gone 13.7ish. Still lots of deductions.

Dowell missing her music, and then going and not waiting for it to restart, is possibly the most spastic thing I've ever seen a gymnast do. She completely freaked herself out from the get-go. I'm impressed how she handled it but that was almost like a self-sabotage. I don't know how to fathom it, I don't know why Marta had her as the anchor either on UB (which added to the pressure) over Kocian. Kocian won every single UB within the US this year.

 

[poths]

I'm actually disgusted at how Dowell has been treated. Has she been sent home? To not even be listed in the TF 6! Completely unnecessary and cruel. I agree that she lost her mind, beginning with the floor situation but surely it's apparent that it was owing to fear. The pressure that Marta puts these girls under leaves no room for error and it's wrong. To shout 'go, go, go' ...and for Brenna to perform without her music without thinking just highlights how controlling Marta is. Unlike the others, Brenna also also has a controlling coach- there's zero balance.

Becky Downie has missed more bars than she has hit, but she is nurtured and supported by her federation. Fragapane missed beam in qualification and was given the nod for TF. Why do the US feel it's appropriate to treat young women with such callus disregard?

I dunno, I'm just very uneasy about the lasting effects that this experience could have on a talented athlete who required nurture and support and instead, was given pressure, stress and punishment when it inevitably fell apart. The quicker Marta is gone, the better.

Can we take a moment to remember that she did a full season of NCAA made the team with a 6.8 bars that we have all seen her nail in PT and competed at her very first world champs. ButyrskYa failed to qualify at her first world champs, it meant Russia had no woman in the Olympics and we all know how Maria's story ended.

I get the feeling people are happy to go along with Martas modus operandi and cast Dowell aside forever? It's bullshit.

 

[VGThuy]

That's what happens when you have depth and a 6-3-3 team format. If Dowell was sorely needed, then I bet she would still be doing TF, but the other gymnasts on the team can cover UB. With 6-3-3, not having all 6 gymnasts compete in TF is pretty normal and as much as it sucks to have one less team member, having five member teams make much more since with this TF format in that it better ensures all gymnasts are used. Plus, I'm sure Marta wants to avoid a Mattie Larson situation where they use her because they felt bad and thought she could redeem herself only to have her lose the gold. With depth, the Soviets were notorious for casting great gymnasts aside when they were no longer needed.

Unless you're saying Dowell is completely out of the team, which I don't think is the case. She competed in Prelims, so she'll get a medal and official recognition as a member of the 6 member team.

As for Marta's atmosphere and death camps, I think most people agree with you, and she was heavily criticized in 2004 and 2008 where it was clear the majority of the team was really beat up and tired by the time the Olympics rolled around. I thought she cooled it by 2011 where the gymnasts looked happy and healthy mentally and physically. At least she gets results and the American gymnasts always seem prepared (and it seems less about just having depth and enough gymnasts to replace a burnt out one like it was in the recent past). But I do see the heaviness creeping back with every gymnast here other than Simone, who seems to have a very healthy perspective on life thanks to her family and coaching team.

 

[poths]

Her elite career is over until Marta is gone. It's so cut throat but it's true. .

It's true, but it's so fcking wrong.

 

[poths]

That's what happens when you have depth and a 6-3-3 team format. If Dowell was sorely needed, then I bet she would still be doing TF, but the other gymnasts on the team can cover UB. With 6-3-3, not having all 6 gymnasts compete in TF is pretty normal and as much as it sucks to have one less team member, having five member teams make much more since with this TF format in that it better ensures all gymnasts are used. Plus, I'm sure Marta wants to avoid a Mattie Larson situation where they use her because they felt bad and thought she could redeem herself only to have her lose the gold. With depth, the Soviets were notorious for casting great gymnasts aside when they were no longer needed.

Unless you're saying Dowell is completely out of the team, which I don't think is the case. She competed in Prelims, so she'll get a medal and official recognition as a member of the 6 member team.

As for Marta's atmosphere and death camps, I think most people agree with you, and she was heavily criticized in 2004 and 2008 where it was clear the majority of the team was really beat up and tired by the time the Olympics rolled around. I thought she cooled it by 2011 2 where the gymnasts looked happy and healthy mentally and physically. But I do see the heaviness creeping back with every gymnast here other than Simone who seems to have a very healthy perspective on life thanks to her family and coaching team.

Have you seen the start lists? Every other team lists 6 athletes with 3 ordered reserves on each event. The U.S. are the only team to name 5. She was also not photographed with the team at practice. So yeah, looks like she's been kicked home. I hope she sues for emotional stress and distress.

 

[VGThuy]

Yikes. I guess Marta couldn't wait to start the emotional torture. This is cold, even for her. It's not as if Dowell was the first U.S. gymnast to not be used in TF and all those gymnasts were still practicing and marched with the rest of the team in TF. Maybe Al Fong pissed her off.

 

[Karpenko]

Marta didn't even let Brenna train with the team today, she had to train with Skinner. Aly posted a pic and it was just the five (could be the Olympic team).

It's really messed up but I almost wonder if Brenna is having some sort of emotional breakdown and they didn't want it to affect the other girls in training.

Kind of like Komova and catching the flu.

There were so many mistakes made with the UB prelims lineup, and I think it affected the whole team dynamic in prelims emotionally. Watch Maggie break a 15.

I don't see Rhonda being this evil.. I actually think it's Martas mind games that cause a lot of these freak outs in competition. The gymnasts are terrified of displeasing her over anything, and she consistently physically wears the team down before a big event. Some gymnasts perform better with a rest sometimes or without the unwarranted added pressure she puts on them (like a mind games type of UB lineup)

 

[poths]

At the end of the day, it's bloody gymnastics. Like seriously.....Romanian nut job needs some severe counselling and an immediate retirement package.

 

[VGThuy]

I can't wait for her to retire. We need someone who did not start out running a totalitarian regime (and I'm not even talking about actual governments here). To think I was growing soft on her after 2012 where it looked like she reached some uncharacteristic form of serenity.

ETA: I was one of those people who was very vocal about the decision to bench Anna Li in 2011 (who could have made UB EF) just to let Alicia get one last world medal despite not being in the same continent. That decision made no sense to me, but now seeing what happened to Dowell, had Li messed up big time in prelims, we could have seen this happen four years earlier.

 

[poths]

It's really messed up but I almost wonder if Brenna is having some sort of emotional breakdown and they didn't want it to affect the other girls in training.

I was thinking this too, but then, how hard is it to build someone's self esteem and show faith in them .....it was a blood qualification, put her in TF and allow her to move forward not sink into a depression.

 

[VGThuy]

I was thinking this too, but then, how hard is it to build someone's self esteem and show faith in them .....it was a blood qualification, put her in TF and allow her to move forward not sink into a depression.

I definitely wouldn't put Brenna up for an event at TF, but I definitely would have put her as a reserve and let her train with the rest of the team. Like for real.

And if she was having an emotional break down, shunning her is not the answer. Ugh! If they think her breaking down would have been distracting, what do you think isolating her and treating her like she's nothing is going to do to the other team members' psyche? It's planting some negative seeds that's going to hurt them in the long run.

 

[poths]

I can't wait for her to retire. We need someone who did not start out running a totalitarian regime (and I'm not even talking about actual governments here). To think I was growing soft on her after 2012 where it looked like she reached some uncharacteristic form of serenity.

Rhonda is a positive replacement. Firstly, at Florida she emphasised a complete team that featured gymnasts with different strengths. She also valued her athletes and restored their confidence following a poor showing. Marissa king effectively lost them the title in 2012, and then won it for them the following year.talent is talent and it deserves to be nurtured not cast aside because it requires a kinder approach.

 

[Erin]

I definitely wouldn't put Brenna up for an event at TF, but I definitely would have put her as a reserve and let her train with the rest of the team. Like for real.

Yeah, in a three up-three count final, I think you can't take a risk on Brenna for bars after what happened on Saturday. A score in the 11s is devastating in a team final and could cost the team the title. College is a bit different in that there is still the possibility of dropping a score. But I agree that shunning her and not listing her as a reserve is ridiculous and unnecessary. At least when Courtney McCool and Sam Pezsek didn't compete in team finals, they still got to be part of the team.

 

[Deleted member 40371]

At the end of the day, it's bloody gymnastics. Like seriously.....Romanian nut job needs some severe counselling and an immediate retirement package.

There is no money in Romanian gymnastics, hence no retirement package. I think they would be glad if they had some retirement package and leave the sport.

Sometimes when they say no money people don't (not meant at anyone in particular) realise the full gravity. One terrible example is that of Agata Wrobel (multiple Olympic medalist and world record breaker), who had to leave the sport due to an injury and resort to working in a British recycling plant sorting garbage. Sadly in many sports I don't think athletes and coaches have much money after retirement.

 

[Erin]

There is no money in Romanian gymnastics, hence no retirement package. I think they would be glad if they had some retirement package and leave the sport.

I think poths was referring to Marta as the Romanian nut job. I'm pretty sure USA Gymnastics has a retirement package. And if not, she and Bela should have made a pretty penny in their heyday and should have saved up some money for retirement. Given that she and Bela have "retired" at least two other times (after 1992 and 1996), I'd assume they'd have enough money to retire on.

 

[Deleted member 40371]

I think poths was referring to Marta as the Romanian nut job. I'm pretty sure USA Gymnastics has a retirement package. And if not, she and Bela should have made a pretty penny in their heyday and should have saved up some money for retirement. Given that she and Bela have "retired" at least two other times (after 1992 and 1996), I'd assume they'd have enough money to retire on.

My bad then, Since I have been reading a lot about getting the Romanian coaches retirement as well. It is even more confusing sometimes when Romanians sometimes mention them as Hungarians.

 

[Fridge_Break]

I wonder if Marta will let Dowell on the floor with the team tomorrow for team finals? Since apparently she was shunned from practice, I wouldn't be surprised if she's left at the hotel at this rate.

Marta. (I feel like I've typed that several times over the years)

 

[Erin]

Marta. (I feel like I've typed that several times over the years)

I don't blame you. I think with the success of the US team and how happy & well-adjusted the 2012 team seemed (although in retrospect, tlhat was probably because they won), Marta's public image has improved but we probably should know better. People don't really change like that. There's an interview with Aly Raisman on Gymnastike from Saturday was very telling. She was very disappointed with her performance, which is understandable - she's an athlete and normally a tough competitor so of course she is disappointed with not delivering and having one of her worst competitions ever at Worlds. But she must have mentioned Marta at least 3 times in a short interview - that she was worried about Marta's reaction, that she knew Marta would be disappointed in her, etc. And this is coming from someone who has proven herself time and time again with Marta in the past and should have a bit of leeway for mistakes. If a veteran like Aly with a solid competition history behind her is that concerned about Marta's reaction, I can't imagine how some of the less experienced gymnasts must feel.

 

[Coco]

In 2006, Martha also left two gymnasts who blew it in prelims out of the lineup for world team finals. It was Natasha Kelly and ...Ashley Priess? That was exceedingly foolish as she had Nastia listed as reserve on VT, B and FX and that was when Nastia had her bad ankle injury and could only do bars. As I recall, Chellsie Memmel hert her shoulder on bars, fell but kept competing and had a miraculous save on beam.

I believe the two who competed in prelims but were not in the lineup for finals got medals.

 

[Fridge_Break]

In 2006, Martha also left two gymnasts who blew it in prelims out of the lineup for world team finals. It was Natasha Kelly and ...Ashley Priess? That was exceedingly foolish as she had Nastia listed as reserve on VT, B and FX and that was when Nastia had her bad ankle injury and could only do bars. As I recall, Chellsie Memmel hert her shoulder on bars, fell but kept competing and had a miraculous save on beam.

I believe the two who competed in prelims but were not in the lineup for finals got medals.

I remember this too, but I don't remember who exactly it was or what the circumstances were. It's not uncommon for Marta to leave someone out of the TF, they've done this at a few Olympics and Worlds. But I haven't heard of them being left out of practice. Ridiculous.

And yes, any participants in prelims get medals regardless if they compete in team finals or not.

 

[Erin]

Or, in the case of Alicia Sacramone in 2011, even if they don't compete in prelims. That was another boneheaded decision by Marta, to not bother using Anna Li even in prelims when Alicia tore her Achilles and was on her way home.

One change since then is I think the alternate also gets a medal - last year Madison Desch was standing on the podium even though she was strictly an alternate.

 

[FiveRinger]

Does anyone know if we can stream the finals live tomorrow or do I have to wait for Universal Sports?

 

[millyskate]

To those who think that Skinner would have helped - E scores are much harsher this year. See Raisman on beam - and on floor only Biles above 15 despite some cracking routines.

It's such a shame Ellie doesn't get to do AA, she really would have had a medal chance. It's not like the US, where Gabby and Aly both are medal prospects: here Ruby, who never probably even considered doing AA coming in to the champs, finds herself in the competition almost by mistake. It's not GB policy to pull athletes out, but I was almost wondering if Ruby was going to suggest it herself. She's barely recovered from injury and gets her chance to shine in the UB final. It would also have been important for Ellie to do a major AA before Rio.

I'm quite worried about the team final lineup - they have chosen the "going for broke" option. Both Downies on UB and Beam, and Fragapane on 3 events including beam - the 3 most fragile athletes. I'm hoping they've asked Ellie and Becky to go for their safest UB routines.

ETA: and finally, respect to Dipa Karmakar. She clearly loves her sport, her form on beam, UB and floor has massively improved and she is competing some serious moves. Her front pike and front tuck connected to leaps on beam are possibly the highest and most secure of the whole competition. And she has a double L turn on floor that the British girls would kill for!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukYRPDv6N94

For an athlete who comes from a country with no infrastructure or coaching tradition and has no training partners of her standard to push her, this is really impressive IMO. She may not have the prettiest gymnastics, but she plays by the rules and has legitimately outperformed many athletes who have all of the above. She's just the kind of athlete one should see at the olympics, and it's a shame the current rules probably won't allow her to go.

 

[poths]

Agree on all of that Milly. Really wish Ellie was doing AA. I still think that if the team medals Ruby may be happy to give up the spot, particularly if Ellie is clean in or around 58.

I also have major fear for the team lineups. Glad they have gone for broke since I don't see a difference between 4th and 8th, that team medal is worth gambling for. Good thing is, bars are first, so if they negotiate them, even one beam fall wouldn't rule out the medal. They finish strong on their best two pieces. I won't be able to watch bars or beam, and I honestly don't know who I'm more worried about. The only one I have faith in is Ruby, so she'll inevitably fall.

It will be good to see what scores Ellie and Maggie manage if they are clean...purely on a 'what if' basis. Let's be honest, odds are Ellie will count a fall or even 2... But miracles happen

I'm really hoping US have a meltdown purely to get rid of Marta before Rio. I can't handle her anymore.