canadablue
Member
- Messages
- 39
Nothing personal, but you seem to be an uber-fan that has overreacted to a couple of rather mild comments by myself & Emdee.
I don't consider someone who responds in detail to criticism of a team in that team's own thread as especially uberish. If I was going around finding a way to mention P/I in every single thread on here, or insisting that only those who truly appreciate P/I can be a part of this thread, I might see your point. And what exactly is overreacting about correcting someone when they're putting inaccurate information out there in a discussion? Backing up your arguments with evidence is much more mature IMO than filling your reponse with condescending emoticons. If you don't wish people to point out where you might have your facts wrong, then don't make statements that are easily shown to be inaccurate or logically tenuous. I will say, though, that some of my response was driven by the fact that this type of criticism (expression, originality) keeps coming up - regarding Mitch, regarding P/I, regarding other teams - and so the strong tone of posts is not only in reponse to this isolated conversation - because it's not an isolated argument you're making, it's far too common.
Neither one of us said anything to attack P&I - we were just discussing some ways they might get higher marks from judges.
Exactly. And I used the opportunity to point out why your criticism of them didn't justify why their marks were lower. You made the specific argument that the marks at Worlds were possibly partly determined because of P/I's lack of expression, and so I responded with two points - one, that there style of projection is just as legitimate as G/P's per the rules, and that the relative weight of something like "expression" is not much of an explanation for the difference in scores to begin with. If you were talking strictly pragmatically, acknowledging that the judges do seem to have a habit of being corrupt/lazy/whatever and not always going by the book, that'd be one thing, but the rest of your post seems to suggest that you feel the judges' decisions are trustworthy.
I thought I made it perfectly clear that I think the judges aren't judging per the criteria. You are using the scores to justify G/P's supposed skills, when it should be the other way around. The actual skating that occurred should match the scores, and it doesn't. It is a FACT, not my opinion, that the PCS criteria, as written, as a whole, cannot justify G/P winning the PCS component at all, let alone by the margins they did - 1.60 in the SD and 2.79 in the FD. The fact that the judges gave a different verdict about it says little because the criteria is still the criteria. If you want to defend G/P's PCS capabilities, explain why they met the actual criteria better than P/I did. If you don't have time for this serious discussion thing, that's certainly fair, but then I trust this specific topic will also no longer presently be worth your while. I only posted a second time because you appeared to be attempting to continue the conversation by completely ignoring what I had said. If you don't wish to continue the discussion due to the seriousness and time commitment, by all means, it is well within your rights to not continue it.
Hahaha, I'm quite aware that it's not only G/P that are unfairly outscoring P/I on PCS - you were the one who brought up G/P. Or, rather, emdee discussed the top 4 Canadian guys, and you connected that to why P/I finished below G/P in the PCS scoring. Line up the criteria with P/I's skating, and their placement clearly becomes ridiculous vs. many teams. The Shibs are excellent PCS skaters, but S/Z and especially Co/Bu should certainly not be beating P/I in components either (regarding the latter of which I acknowledge you agreed later in your post). Let me reiterate - you cannot use scores to justify scores. You can only use the criteria and the skating that actually happened. It just so happens I'm working on a video project that will allow people to do just that - compare those two things and figure out what range the score should have been in. I will be sure to post here for anyone interested once it's ready.
By subtle romance, I mean the style of program and expression that P/I do that I love, that appears to bore a certain segment of ice dance fans. I found their FD this year absolutely breathtaking, but it's certainly valid if others did not. Some fans I know feel that there is something quite difficult - or perhaps, underappreciated might be a better word, since being an off-ice couple certainly makes it easier for P/I to convey - and beautiful about the type of connection P/I portray. I think many criticisms aimed at them seem to be saying that they should be doing something different than what they're already great at, and my whole point to begin with was that isn't necessary under the actual written publicly-available criteria. I don't think G/P pull off the romance angle anywhere near as well as you seem to, but where they aim for that, it's not meant to be subtle. And that's fine. That's valid under the rules as well.
Anyways, as a Canadian, I like to appreciate all our dance teams and their different qualities.
As a Canadian, I value things like fair play in sports, and open, but factual, discussion. In the format of skating, where nationality plays a much diminished role compared to something like team sports, I feel no obligation to cheer for teams I don't enjoy, or to have a high opinion of teams that I don't think exemplify great ice dancing, just because they are Canadian. (Or to love a team I enjoy less because they aren't Canadian.) Nor do I feel obligated to ignore when the scoring has been hinky. This is (supposed to be) a sport. A sport in which teams compete against each other. Comparing teams and pointing out the flaws of teams - not trashing them, but pointing out where in there skating/dancing there are issues - is totally reasonable. I have no issue with the simple fact that you criticized P/I. Your criticism and accompanying theory were flawed, so I responded, with arguments, with evidence. I respect that some people are fans of figure skating only to be entertained, and dislike criticism or comparison of teams, and that is totally their right, but if they're going to make statements about the scoring, then I'm not going to pretend that it's not a sport with rules and criteria for their sake.
