Which 3 U.S. dance teams do you want to see at 4CCs?

Which 3 U.S. dance teams do you want to see at 4CCs?


  • Total voters
    87

clairecloutier

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,685
I assume the top 3 U.S. dance teams will skip 4CCs this year, due to its closeness to the Olympics. (I believe this has been standard procedure the last few Olympic cycles.)

Given that, which U.S. dance teams do you want to see at 4CCs, and why? (Let me know if I've left any major candidates off this list.)
 
Barring any surprises, we all know the top three in San Jose are the teams who made the Grand Prix Final.

Given its close proximity to the games, Four Continents always feels like such a booby prize for hopefuls who miss Olympic selection.

But, they are still a great opportunity for couples new to the senior ranks who want to establish themselves for the next quadrennial.
 
But, they are still a great opportunity for couples new to the senior ranks who want to establish themselves for the next quadrennial.

Right. Hubbell/Donohue won 2014 4CC and look where they're at now. Weaver/Poje won in 2010 and they've also had a great career even if they're not where they want to be right at this moment. Belbin/Agosto did surprisingly go to 2006 4CC and won a silver medal at the Olympics weeks later but maybe that's because they had to miss their second GP event and thus the GPF and wanted to have their programs in front of an international panel before the Olympics. Seeing as how all three of the Olympic team favorites qualified for the GPF, I don't foresee any of them going to 4CC this time around.
 
I voted for McNamara/Carpenter, Pogrebinsky/Benoit and Hawayek/Baker.


Pogrebinsky/Benoit - I really like their FD this season. Their packaging, skating looks to be improved from last season. The lifts and spins are outstanding. Her flexiblity is used as a highlight to their programs. Grants they did not skate their best at Tallin Trophy, but I believe this teams potential is very promising.

https://youtu.be/R3UBBoxkWUM

McNamara/Carpenter - have adjusted the best in terms to stepping up to the senior ranks this season. Their programs are better than most of the other teams making their senior debut(exception being the french team of Abachkina/Thauron)
https://youtu.be/R8EJeF0lT9E

Hawayek/Baker - I really like their SD and the FD is a great vehicle for them. Also, if one of us teams decides not to go to the worlds, this team needs to be ready.


The Parsons need to access their skating.team and if they want to continue. They looked completely unprepared to their senior debut in regards the programs. They lack connection and Rachel Parsons looked not ready.
 
Given its close proximity to the games, Four Continents always feels like such a booby prize for hopefuls who miss Olympic selection.

Maybe, maybe not. Given that Four Continents is close in both time and location to the Winter Olympic Games, skaters may prefer to compete at Four Continents and stay in Asia if they have somewhere to train. Since there is a good chance that two American ice dance couples will have the opportunity to compete in the Team Event, the opportunity to be well-adjusted to the time zone before the Opening Ceremonies might be very tempting.
 
Something seemed really off with the Parsons at SA. I had not seen them earlier in the season so I don't know when it happened, but last year they were fabulous. They had a great FD and shot ahead of McNamara-Carpenter. This year it seems the other way around. I don't know what happened and it's a shame, because they looked so ready to succeed.
 
Something seemed really off with the Parsons at SA. I had not seen them earlier in the season so I don't know when it happened, but last year they were fabulous. They had a great FD and shot ahead of McNamara-Carpenter. This year it seems the other way around. I don't know what happened and it's a shame, because they looked so ready to succeed.

Rachel also had a hard fall in the SD warm-up and she hit her head, so she might have been shook by that. But they didn't do great at Rostelecom either, but I think that's more nerves. They actually had a really nice debut at their Senior B, scoring 67+ and 93+.

Tough choice, but I'd say Hawayek/Baker, Parsons and McNamara-Carpenter.
 
Maybe, maybe not. Given that Four Continents is close in both time and location to the Winter Olympic Games, skaters may prefer to compete at Four Continents and stay in Asia if they have somewhere to train. Since there is a good chance that two American ice dance couples will have the opportunity to compete in the Team Event, the opportunity to be well-adjusted to the time zone before the Opening Ceremonies might be very tempting.
Maybe, but I'd think any team doing the team event would definitely skip 4CC. It's pretty close since the team event is right at the beginning. It'd be 4CC, then two weeks, then the team event, then one week, then the individual. That's a lot, since these teams are also hoping to contend for individual medals. It's more likely that the number three team coming out of Nationals might decide to go.
 
Maybe, maybe not. Given that Four Continents is close in both time and location to the Winter Olympic Games, skaters may prefer to compete at Four Continents and stay in Asia if they have somewhere to train. Since there is a good chance that two American ice dance couples will have the opportunity to compete in the Team Event, the opportunity to be well-adjusted to the time zone before the Opening Ceremonies might be very tempting.

That sounds expensive and inconvenient when you add on having a coach there too without all the support (boot people, choreographer, physio staff).
 
I want the team to be
-Hawayek/Baker: Clearly, the best of the U.S. B-team.
-McNamara/Carpenter: Solid senior debut
-Parsons/Parsons: I want them on the team, which also includes wanting them to perform well enough to earn a spot on the team! They have looked lost this season, and their coaching staff has as well. Every event is a little worse than the last one. :( I've been a big fan of the Wheaton program. However, they have really done this team a disservice. Their packaging is all wrong and the team's confidence is gone. A more experienced coaching staff would have helped them and M/C have better senior debuts. It reminds me of when Kiliakov and co. were starting out and pushing M/C up a level every year, even when they weren't in the top three at nationals. Or when they gave the Phams that ridiculous program where she portrayed a ghost woman and he a dying man when they were 11 and 12-year-olds. The coaches have corrected these sorts of errors, but M/C and the Parsons are (were?) too good to have their senior careers be an experiment. In other words, Wheaton better figure out the senior circuit quickly or I hope both teams move on to other coaches.
 
I'm really surprised at how the Parsons look this season. They started out ok in their Senior B event and impressing me with their edge quality (they always impress me with that), but I think their whole packaging and programs this year are a big miss. They should be making a bigger statement with their programs but it seems like they have a very casual not very Latin SD where they don't bother with packaging or dancing and their FD seemed to be like "well, we have a brother/sister team, let's give them a brother/sister team homage program for their senior debut because what else do we do?" They're having a similar year that McNamara/Carpenter had last season when they were fresh off of a World Junior title as well. Maybe like M/C are doing this year, the Parsons will have things figured out next season. It just makes me think of all the other teams that successfully transitioned from junior to senior in their first season and how well they were packaged to look like seniors, like the Shibs. However, the Shibs also had an off year in juniors after the World junior silver medal win too, so maybe that's just a normal course of team progression.
 
I think super high expectations are hard to deal with, no matter what level you are at. Michael looked nervous at Rostelecom, and Rachel looked fine there. She looked nervous at SA, and he looked much more dialed in. As far as presentation, it has never been their strength IMO; but they chose very wisely last season and broke through. My guess is that they will learn from the comparison/contrast. I still like their FD for them this season, but Ben is correct that there is no relationship between them here. That isn't the style of this kind of program, and it is one of the problems with selecting modern dance (though not an insurmountable one).

But the Parsons are generally a freight train when it comes to technique. That is what they have been missing in their last two events, and you can't get away with obvious mistakes when moving up and competing in a deep GP field. But it's not the norm for them. Yes, they made mistakes last season that weren't penalized so powerfully; but they have the technical ability.

In any case, they earned their senior minimum scores right off the bat this season (and a very high score for their SD at Nepela).

Teams that cannot say the same about their senior debuts:
Zagorsky & Guerreiro
Sinitsina & Katsalapov
Hurtado & Khaliavin

Paradis & Ouellette didn't have their minimums for some while.
Cannuscio & McManus didn't have theirs last season.

Hawayek & Baker had a rather crummy second season.
Nazarova & Nikitin had a crummy second season.
Pogrebinsky & Benoit have been having a rather crummy one themselves.
Abachkina & Thauron struggled in more than one competition at the beginning of this season.
Popova & Mozgov couldn't get an invite to Russian Nationals their first season.
Lauriault & Le Gac started off this season with more than one disappointing set of scores.
McNamara & Carpenter fell at Finlandia.
Loboda & Drozd just bombed IDF.
It's part of the process.

Crazy high expectations, in general, aren't great for young dance teams. Give them time. Let the freshmen teams find a place to start.

Then we'll watch to see how everyone climbs the mountain.
 
Last edited:
As far as presentation, it has never been their strength IMO; but they chose very wisely last season and broke through. My guess is that they will learn from the comparison/contrast. I still like their FD for them this season, but Ben is correct that there is no relationship between them here. That isn't the style of this kind of program, and it is one of the problems with selecting modern dance (though not an insurmountable one).
Are there any other programs, aside from last season's, that fit them really well? I'm trying to get a sense of what would work for them or what their style is.
 
I have said several times before that the Parsonses should do waltz. Their short dance in the 15-16 season (Prokofiev's Cinderella) is still one of their best.

Style is secondary to technicality. It's hard enough for first-year seniors even without technical errors.

Anyway, I'm not too worried about them yet, as they've seen plenty of ups and downs during their junior career. Most skaters are not Virtue/Moir or Papadakis/Cizeron. It's a grind. Sometimes an endless grind.
 
Last edited:
Are there any other programs, aside from last season's, that fit them really well? I'm trying to get a sense of what would work for them or what their style is.

The Parsons/Parsons' waltz from the 2015-2016 season made me a fan. Well-presented with excellent technique: deep, sweeping edges and fantastic flow. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylS8JlyjYDM
 
Are there any other programs, aside from last season's, that fit them really well? I'm trying to get a sense of what would work for them or what their style is.

Last season is when I felt like they found a style. The hip hop worked very well for them. It was fun and showed off their unison. She didn't have to play the femme fatale or Cinderella. She just played, "Rachel," I think. And the free was also modern and showed off their line & his flexibility. They have great unison, and neither of them are character skaters. They are fast & have a sense of power.

The Parsons aren't my kind of team, though, so I would take my opinion with a grain of salt and maybe ask the question in their fan thread.
 
I think the Parsons look intimidated to be competing with the big ones and precisely in the Olympic season. At practices in SA, even before the ugly fall in the lift, they were not looking very good, and the next day they fell again at this part https://youtu.be/7zS5Gy0p8JI?t=38 :duh:.
 
The Parsons problem is obvious. She's outgrowing him, and as a result, everything has a labored look to it. No program is going to hide that.
 
The Parsons problem is obvious. She's outgrowing him, and as a result, everything has a labored look to it. No program is going to hide that.

do you mean physically?, because she is 20 yo, do you think she got taller this season?
 
do you mean physically?, because she is 20 yo, do you think she got taller this season?

No the problem was there last season too, it's just getting more noticeable the longer they go on. Sorry I should have said she "outgrew" him, and not still "outgrowing" him. It happened to Hubbell and her brother as well. People didn't want to acknowledge that was the problem either, until they were forced to break up.
 
No the problem was there last season too, it's just getting more noticeable the longer they go on. Sorry I should have said she "outgrew" him, and not still "outgrowing" him. It happened to Hubbell and her brother as well. People didn't want to acknowledge that was the problem either, until they were forced to break up.
Well last season was their best season ever, so obviously they can deal with it. Sure, it's something they have to manage, but if she hasn't grown since last season, that's not the only thing going on. Probably not the main thing.
I think the lack of height difference is a factor, but it's not nearly as big a deal as in pairs, where it affects lifts, twists. It mainly just makes the lifts harder, right? Or does it affect a lot of the other elements. Because despite the rough start to the season, we know they have strong twizzles, skate super close and have great skating skills (=capable of good patterns, step sequences), their spins have been level 4 with +GOE this year. And even the lifts, every single lift this year has been level 4 with +GOE.

Breaking it down by competition (elements I don't mention were level 4, +GOE):
- Ondrej Nepela: SD had level 3 PSt and Rhumba, FD had CiSt3 and DiSt2 (overall came 2nd, 163.14 total score)
- Rostelecom Cup: SD had level 3 PSt, NtCiSt and Rhumba, level one twizzles (-GOE), FD had level one twizzles (-GOE), DiSt2 and CiSt3 (7th, 148.75 total score)
- Skate America: SD had level 2 PSt, NtCiSt and Rhumba, level 3 twizzles, FD had level 3 twizzles (-GOE), CiSt2, DiSt2 (9th, 145.54 total score)
- Overall: PSt (3,3,2), RH (3,3,2), NtCiSt (4,3,2), CiSt (3,3,2), DiSt (2,2,2)

Nepela was a good comp for them. They didn't get all their levels, but it was pretty early in the season, so that's normal. At Rostelecom, their main issue was majorly messing up the twizzles both times, though again they didn't get all their levels. At Skate America, the levels were low (though they were for everyone except the Shibs, super strict tech panel) and the twizzles were better, but still rough.

For the levels, having the FD CiSt at level 3 is typical for even the top teams (H/D were the only team in the top ten at Worlds to get level four on the CiSt/SeSt in the FD). The level 2 on that element at SA wasn't good, but almost all the teams there were really hammered in levels, so it's hard to say. The DiSt has consistently been level 2, which is a definite problem. Level 3 would be fine (only V/M and P/C got DiSt4 from the top 10 teams at Worlds), but 2 is low.

In the SD, you'd like to see level 4 on the rhumba, but 3 isn't terrible (two teams in the top 10 at Worlds got level 3 on the midnight blues pattern, and that was the end of the season). The same is true for the PSt, except that only V/M got level 4 on that at Worlds. And for the NtMiSt from last season, only V/M and H/D got the level 4 at Worlds. All those level 2s from SA were not good. As I mentioned, that was an unusually tough tech caller, but I also don't think they're skating with as much confidence, so again who knows.

For the SD, their PCs have gone from 30.76 at ONT, to 29.29 at CoR, to 28.56 at SA. For the FD, their PCs have gone from 47.58 at ONT, to 45.82 at CoR, to 43.98 at SA.

So unless we think it's the lack of height difference that's messing up their footwork levels, then the height is not the issue. And maybe the height does affect that. I wouldn't think so, but I'm no expert on that. I think their programs aren't as good this year, they're a little intimidated by the move to seniors and now that they've started to make some mistakes, they're probably struggling with confidence. And maybe there are tech issues with their footwork this season, whether it's an issue with them or with how the sequences were designed, or both.

Last season (2 JGPs, JGPF, JW), in the SD, they got all level 4s except on the NiMiSt, which was mostly level 3 (it was 4 at one of their JGPs). In the FD, they got CiSt (3,3,3,4), DiSt (2,3,3,3). So the biggest change is the levels they're getting on the DiSt, the PSt and the pattern.

*I know Worlds isn't the best comparison, but I was only going to spend so long on this, and the top teams were there.
 
I don't buy the similar-height issue. The Parsons do super lovely lifts in spite of being similar height (credit to both for that). I think it was more nerves at both events coupled with a tough caller at SkAm. Last season they won everything, but they've had their up-and-down seasons too. In the 2015-2016 season, they barely got on the podium at JGPF after a poor FD but then recovered to win silver and beat Loboda and Dzoid (who easily beat them at JGPF).
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top
Do Not Sell My Personal Information