Was Maria 2 (or 1) triple salchow at the 2000 worlds from having way better 2001-2002

[butyrskafanatic]

I really think losing her world title in 2000 was the end for Maria. With younger skaters on the rise, with a clear excuse to push Irina back to firm Russian #1, with Kwan still going strong, and with her getting older, this was it. She needed that 2nd world title to stay in the fray moving forward, but also for her own confidence and momentum.

Had she done both triple salchows there is no question she places atleast 2nd (maybe 1st) in the LP and defends her world title since Irina's skate wasnt that good this night. Had she done just 1 of the 2 she might have placed 2nd in the LP to defend her title, but I am doubtful since her scores were so much lower than Irina and Irina was way overmarked for her skate that night, nearly beating Kwan in the LP to win with fewer triples, no triple-triple, and mistakes, which indicates she was the judges pet despite Maria's SP win.

I think if she wins in 2000 she is a much stronger contender for 2001. Atleast medals in 2001 even with the exact same skates, as there is no way the 2 time defending World Champion is placed only 4th in the Q round and 5th in the short even for those skates. Quite possibly though has more confidence/momentum and skates much better overall than she actually did in 2001 (not that much better in the final LP which was close to her best but in the other programs) and is possibly a contender for gold again. Then even medaling at the 2001 worlds is taken seriously as a big contender for the 2002 Olympics which she really wasnt.

The Russian fed also has to atleast share their support between her and Irina awhile longer. Especialy as Irina doesnt even have a major title yet and Maria now has 2. The 2000 NHK fiasco which was also crucial in destroying Maria's confidence never happens now either.

 

[tony]

NHK in 2000 didn't destroy Maria's confidence as much as people like to think. She was able to beat Slutskaya right after Russian Nationals that year (where Maria was only 3rd) at the Japan Open and she could've put herself back in as a serious contender for Worlds but her Europeans skates were poor as well (the 2nd in the LP is deceiving- she had two big wipeouts) and then her Grand Prix Final LPs were just about as bad as I've ever seen Maria skate.

She pushed herself out of contention at Worlds with a poor QR, not even being in the final SP group, and then skating an extremely nervy program in the short. Her LP was a wonderful, unexpected comeback, but it was too much to ask for at that point when the majority of her 2001 skates had been so bad.

The 2002 problem was that she had slowed way down and many of her jumps looked tight on rotation. I will never understand the decision to skate the SP that she did, ending with her two weakest elements and seriously crawling through the spirals. The LP, which she only debuted at the GPFinal, wasn't at the same level as any of her 1998-2001 programs either.

Had Maria done at least one Salchow in the long at Worlds, I still think she places below Slutskaya in the LP. It's been discussed to death in other threads, but she just barely beat Gusmeroli (5-4) in the long while Slutskaya was picking up some 1st place ordinals for her (looking back) relatively weak overall program. Had Maria nailed the 3+3 SEQ and then attempted a second Lutz rather than trying to throw the 3S back in, maybe it would've been close but it really was Slutskaya's year for the judges and only an absolutely solid Kwan was able to stop that from happening.

 

[ohashibiles]

NHK in 2000 didn't destroy Maria's confidence as much as people like to think. She was able to beat Slutskaya right after Russian Nationals that year (where Maria was only 3rd) at the Japan Open and she could've put herself back in as a serious contender for Worlds but her Europeans skates were poor as well (the 2nd in the LP is deceiving- she had two big wipeouts) and then her Grand Prix Final LPs were just about as bad as I've ever seen Maria skate.

She pushed herself out of contention at Worlds with a poor QR, not even being in the final SP group, and then skating an extremely nervy program in the short. I bet you cant even come up with a single example of that ever happening. Her LP was a wonderful, unexpected comeback, but it was too much to ask for at that point when the majority of her 2001 skates had been so bad.

The 2002 problem was that she had slowed way down and many of her jumps looked tight on rotation. I will never understand the decision to skate the SP that she did, ending with her two weakest elements and seriously crawling through the spirals. The LP, which she only debuted at the GPFinal, wasn't at the same level as any of her 1998-2001 programs either.

Had Maria done at least one Salchow in the long at Worlds, I still think she places below Slutskaya in the LP. It's been discussed to death in other threads, but she just barely beat Gusmeroli (5-4) in the long while Slutskaya was picking up some 1st place ordinals for her (looking back) relatively weak overall program. Had Maria nailed the 3+3 SEQ and then attempted a second Lutz rather than trying to throw the 3S back in, maybe it would've been close but it really was Slutskaya's year for the judges and only an absolutely solid Kwan was able to stop that from happening.

Maria had 10 5.9s in the short program. Kwan only had 4 5.9s in winning the long program. Nobody gets way lower marks in the long program skating cleanly than the short. It is thus stupid to say Maria would not have been able to place top 2 in the LP skating cleanly, and based on what I just said it is very unlikely she doesn't in fact win the long program (despite not needing to) if she does both salchows. You clearly aren't very intelligent.

As for just 1 it depends. If she did the one in the triple toe-triple salchow sequence I think she takes 2nd in the LP over Slutskaya which is enough. If it is just the 2nd salchow then she is probably still 3rd in the LP and 3rd overall.

 

[tony]

Maria had 10 5.9s in the short program. Kwan only had 4 5.9s in winning the long program. Nobody gets way lower marks in the long program skating cleanly than the short. It is thus stupid to say Maria would not have been able to place top 2 in the LP skating cleanly, and based on what I just said it is very unlikely she doesn't in fact win the long program (despite not needing to) if she does both salchows.

Maria is my all-time favorite skater. If the judges really wanted to push her, she would've seen at least one 6.0 in the short program because she skated last and to me, that is one of the best performances ever by anybody and they didn't have to hold marks for anyone else. But going back to the point that she skated last- Kwan had a little hiccup on her flip and she flutzed, Slutskaya had no runout on her combo. Most judges had no option but to place Butyrskaya 1st in that segment because she clearly won it, and it required giving her those high scores to get the ordinal correct. Same thing with giving Kwan lower scores in the long program. She skated first and they obviously wanted to hold on to see if Butyrskaya (and especially Slutskaya) would also deliver.

Slutskaya was still able to win two judges in the short and two judges in the long and neither program was amazing. She was absolutely getting the push that season.

You clearly aren't very intelligent.

Thank you!

 

[briancoogaert]

I think Slutskaya's back as Russian #1 was something Maria Butyrskaya could do nothing against.
But for sure, her lost at 2000 Worlds after such a beautiful SP didn't help.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

I think Slutskaya's back as Russian #1 was something Maria Butyrskaya could do nothing against.
But for sure, her lost at 2000 Worlds after such a beautiful SP didn't help.

Agreed, but if she defends her world title which she obviously does if she does both triple salchows, and possibly if she does only 1 of the 2, would have probably kept her at Russian #1 even if the Russian fed didnt like it, for atleast the time being as the reigning 2 time World Champion.

 

[ohashibiles]

I think Slutskaya's back as Russian #1 was something Maria Butyrskaya could do nothing against.
But for sure, her lost at 2000 Worlds after such a beautiful SP didn't help.

I think in 2000 they were co-#1s for the moment, and I am a much bigger Slutskaya fan than a Butyrskaya one. Butyrskaya could not have handily won the short program over a clean Slutskaya and clean Kwan if she were not atleast a close #2 to the Russian fed. It wouldnt even be possible, especialy with the favor they have, particularly between their own skaters.

That was clear 6 months later when Slutskaya skated like crap and still beat a stunning Butyrskaya at NHK. By then Slutskaya was indeed clear and undisputed Russian #1 again.

 

[briancoogaert]

I think in 2000 they were co-#1s for the moment, and I am a much bigger Slutskaya fan than a Butyrskaya one. Butyrskaya could not have handily won the short program over a clean Slutskaya and clean Kwan if she were not atleast a close #2 to the Russian fed. It wouldnt even be possible, especialy with the favor they have, particularly between their own skaters.

That was clear 6 months later when Slutskaya skated like crap and still beat a stunning Butyrskaya at NHK. By then Slutskaya was indeed clear and undisputed Russian #1 again.

I don't exactly remember the order of the SP, but IIRC, Butyrskaya skated last.
And one possibility is that : after Kwan's 2nd place in the QR and tight landing on the 3F, maybe judges didn't want to have Slutskaya and Kwan too far away from each others in the rankings after the SP.

 

[ohashibiles]

I don't exactly remember the order of the SP, but IIRC, Butyrskaya skated last.
And one possibility is that : after Kwan's 2nd place in the QR and tight landing on the 3F, maybe judges didn't want to have Slutskaya and Kwan too far away from each others in the rankings after the SP.

It is possible but Slutskaya skated well enough if they were hands down Russian #1 she would still have won the short for sure, particularly doing a harder solo jump (3flip to 3loop) than Maria. She certainly would have in 2001 if they did the same skates. Irina was probably Russian #1, but it wasnt by much, and the Russian fed. was still splitting support between them for then. They had to as Maria while reigning World Champ could not be just chucked aside as much as the Russian fed. probably wanted to.

 

[Marco]

Slutskaya had no runout on her combo.

...and also messed up her layback spin worse than she usually would.

If Irina had not risked it all and won at that "nothing to lose" GPF, Kwan would beat her at that Worlds short in a heartbeat.

ETA thanks to Tony.

 

[tony]

...and also messed up her combination spin worse than she usually would.

Are you sure you aren't confusing it for the 2002 Olympics SP or some other event? She actually had a great combo spin. Aside from the tentative runout on the toe loop, the only other minor error I saw was a little travel on the final layback.

 

[Marco]

Are you sure you aren't confusing it for the 2002 Olympics SP or some other event? She actually had a great combo spin. Aside from the tentative runout on the toe loop, the only other minor error I saw was a little travel on the final layback.

Yes sorry I meant the layback spin. It was quite a visible travel. Thanks Tony.

Her combo spin was decent there, but it still bugs me that she never bothered to hold that camel, ever.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

I thought Irina's short at the 2000 worlds was fine, not her best, but not as bad as some of you are describing. IMO it was better than her 2002 Olympics SP which it seems most people thought should have been 1st there (I am in the minority and agreed with Kwan being 1st in the Olympic SP but I am a self admitted Irina hater also). Her combo landing wasnt the best for sure, but still was stronger than Kwan's triple flip landing IMO. And the layback travel wasnt that bad. I probably would have had her 2nd over Kwan since both were clean, but Kwan's 1 shaky element was much worse than Irina's 2 slightly shaky one, and most of the other elements of Irina except the spiral sequence and combo jump were stronger; and I also thought this was one of Irina's best and most emotionally moving short programs ever, she really felt the music beautifully which is rare for her and that is obvious when comparing to others who skated to that same music and dont give you as much feel, while Kwan's Beatles short was kind of cool and interesting but not really her forte IMO.

 

[briancoogaert]

One thing to add : Slutskaya never had any step into her solo triple jump in the SP.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

One thing to add : Slutskaya never had any step into her solo triple jump in the SP.

I will have to rewatch her short now, I dont recall that, but if you are right she is very lucky as probably only the judge who gave a 5.4 too an additional deduction for that. She probably should have been 4th behind Gusmeroli (who had an excellent short as well) if that is really true.

I also just realized if Slutskaya were even 3rd in the short behind Kwan, and all the other placings remained the same, Butyrskaya would have won silver over Slutskaya too.

 

[joubertelegant]

NHK in 2000 didn't destroy Maria's confidence as much as people like to think. She was able to beat Slutskaya right after Russian Nationals that year (where Maria was only 3rd) at the Japan Open and she could've put herself back in as a serious contender for Worlds but her Europeans skates were poor as well (the 2nd in the LP is deceiving- she had two big wipeouts) and then her Grand Prix Final LPs were just about as bad as I've ever seen Maria skate.

She pushed herself out of contention at Worlds with a poor QR, not even being in the final SP group, and then skating an extremely nervy program in the short. Her LP was a wonderful, unexpected comeback, but it was too much to ask for at that point when the majority of her 2001 skates had been so bad.

The 2002 problem was that she had slowed way down and many of her jumps looked tight on rotation. I will never understand the decision to skate the SP that she did, ending with her two weakest elements and seriously crawling through the spirals. The LP, which she only debuted at the GPFinal, wasn't at the same level as any of her 1998-2001 programs either.

Had Maria done at least one Salchow in the long at Worlds, I still think she places below Slutskaya in the LP. It's been discussed to death in other threads, but she just barely beat Gusmeroli (5-4) in the long while Slutskaya was picking up some 1st place ordinals for her (looking back) relatively weak overall program. Had Maria nailed the 3+3 SEQ and then attempted a second Lutz rather than trying to throw the 3S back in, maybe it would've been close but it really was Slutskaya's year for the judges and only an absolutely solid Kwan was able to stop that from happening.

I think if Maria does both triple salchows she wins the long program.

If she does 1 of the 2 she is 2nd in the LP to Irina, which with the qualifying and short program results allows her to defend her title.

In 2002 her skating was just weak, some of which was age, but some of it was probably also loss of momentum and confidence. Probably not too much age, look at how Kostner is as fast and fluid and ever and she is older than Maria was in 2002.

 

[David21]

One thing to add : Slutskaya never had any step into her solo triple jump in the SP.

She did a clockwise turn and then changed direction with a counter clock-wise turn for the flip takeoff. One of the most difficult entrances into the solo jump in the SP in her time.

Not much more to add to the discussion instead that Butyrskaya indeed deserved 6.0s for presentation for her SP at 2000 Worlds (not for tech). She still beat Slutskaya 7:2 judges and got 5.9s for tech so I wouldn't really say she was undermarked. In the LP, she was lucky to beat Gusmeroli who skated brilliantly.

 

[tony]

The thing is that had Maria done a 3T+1Lo+3S sequence, she wouldn't have repeated the Salchow. It would've been a second Lutz attempt, as she did at Europeans.

Speaking of Europeans, she doubled the second Lutz and landed every other triple (6 of them) about as well as anyone could (including the 3/3 sequence)- one of her best skates. And she still didn't get a single judge from Slutskaya and even lost 3 judges to Gusmeroli, who had another amazing skate.

 

[briancoogaert]

She did a clockwise turn and then changed direction with a counter clock-wise turn for the flip takeoff. One of the most difficult entrances into the solo jump in the SP in her time.

Sorry but it's long time before the jump and not directly into the jump.
Anyway, it was the case for almost every skater at that time !

 

[David21]

Speaking of Europeans, she doubled the second Lutz and landed every other triple (6 of them) about as well as anyone could (including the 3/3 sequence)- one of her best skates. And she still didn't get a single judge from Slutskaya and even lost 3 judges to Gusmeroli, who had another amazing skate.

Yeah, but I can see why Butyrskaya didn't get a single judge from Slutskaya that day...Slutskaya was amazing, all jumps rock solid and great presentation as well. Maria had a mistake even though it was only a small one and not really a mistake.

Sorry but it's long time before the jump and not directly into the jump.
Anyway, it was the case for almost every skater at that time !

Depends on your definition of "long time" I guess

Before 2000, before she added the flip to the SP, she did the triple loop directly out of steps in the SP.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

The thing is that had Maria done a 3T+1Lo+3S sequence, she wouldn't have repeated the Salchow. It would've been a second Lutz attempt, as she did at Europeans.

Speaking of Europeans, she doubled the second Lutz and landed every other triple (6 of them) about as well as anyone could (including the 3/3 sequence)- one of her best skates. And she still didn't get a single judge from Slutskaya and even lost 3 judges to Gusmeroli, who had another amazing skate.

She wasnt even in contention for the gold though as she was 4th in the short. I am sure the judges knew that and it is a factor in scoring. Totally different to 2000 worlds and being in the lead. Maria got a couple judges off Irina in the LP of the 2002 Europeans and she didnt deserve them either, but this time it was the reverse situation.

 

[Marco]

Yeah, but I can see why Butyrskaya didn't get a single judge from Slutskaya that day...Slutskaya was amazing, all jumps rock solid and great presentation as well. Maria had a mistake even though it was only a small one and not really a mistake.

Long time no see @David21!

Slutskaya did 2 lutzes at Europeans which was a big deal at the time. Butyrskaya only did 1 and not even in combination. I love the way her Swan Lake was constructed but technically it didn't have the full step sequence and spiral sequence that Carmen had.

 

[David21]

Long time no see @David21!

Thanks I hope to post some more here when the Olympics are coming around.

Slutskaya did 2 lutzes at Europeans which was a big deal at the time. Butyrskaya only did 1 and not even in combination. I love the way her Swan Lake was constructed but technically it didn't have the full step sequence and spiral sequence that Carmen had.

You're right. The judges loved seeing the triple lutz combo back then and Maria didn't do that whereas Irina did 3lutz-2loop.
And I loved Swan Lake, too.

 

[ohashibiles]

I actually didnt like Swan Lake. IMO it was far worse than Otonal for Maria. And it paled in comparision to Baiul's Swan Lake.

 

[Marco]

The judges loved seeing the triple lutz combo back then and Maria didn't do that whereas Irina did 3lutz-2loop.

Maria knew it too and that's why she started doing 2 3lutzes the next season.

 

[tony]

Maria knew it too and that's why she started doing 2 3lutzes the next season.

Well, she was already trying the second Lutz on occasion in the 2000 season.

But in the bigger picture looking back, that's one thing about Maria that is really remarkable. She wins Worlds in 1999 with two toe loops and two loops in the free skate, nothing really harder than a 3S / steps / 3T sequence, etc. She then goes into 2000 and starts trying the 3T+1Lo+3S and the second Lutz. By 2001, the second Lutz was always attempted regardless of how the program went to that point.

She takes it up another notch by switching out her glorious 3Lo for her least favorite 3F in the short program in 2001 (and 2002). The flip was so hit or miss in 2000 that it's remarkable she had so many clean shorts in the 2001 and 2002 seasons.

And remember, she was 27 when she started increasing her technical difficulty.

 

[Marco]

Well, she was already trying the second Lutz on occasion in the 2000 season.

But in the bigger picture looking back, that's one thing about Maria that is really remarkable. She wins Worlds in 1999 with two toe loops and two loops in the free skate, nothing really harder than a 3S / steps / 3T sequence, etc. She then goes into 2000 and starts trying the 3T+1Lo+3S and the second Lutz. By 2001, the second Lutz was always attempted regardless of how the program went to that point.

She takes it up another notch by switching out her glorious 3Lo for her least favorite 3F in the short program in 2001 (and 2002). The flip was so hit or miss in 2000 that it's remarkable she had so many clean shorts in the 2001 and 2002 seasons.

And remember, she was 27 when she started increasing her technical difficulty.

Kudos to her definitely. Tony do you remember how many times she attempted a seconds lutz in 2000 season? Definitely at Euros (which she doubled), but I don't think she tried it otherwise that season (definitely not Worlds FS) but haven't checked recently. I also don't think I saw her Worlds QR.

Incidentally, doing the flip in the short instead of the loop might have caused her to skate more tentatively and it showed in her scores. Her second season with Scene d'Amore was not as successful score-wise even when she was clean. In hindsight, she perhaps shouldn't have switched. She won 2000 Worlds short with a loop.

 

[tony]

Kudos to her definitely. Tony do you remember how many times she attempted a seconds lutz in 2000 season? Definitely at Euros (which she doubled), but I don't think she tried it otherwise that season (definitely not Worlds FS) but haven't checked recently. I also don't think I saw her Worlds QR.

For some reason, I thought she attempted the second Lutz at least once on the Grand Prix. But checking back, it was always the loop if she landed the first Salchow. If she didn't, then she tried to throw in the Salchow again (and usually was successful).

At Worlds, she doubled the first Salchow in the QR and then landed it later. Her only real mistake was a hand down on the double Axel but she landed 6 triples. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMbOxpAV-Rc

 

[joubertelegant]

I think her Worlds Q round skate might have even been enough for 2nd in the LP which would have allowed her to defend her title. She probably needed to do all 7 triples to beat Kwan in the LP to win the LP, even though that wasn't needed to win the event.

 

[tony]

I think her Worlds Q round skate might have even been enough for 2nd in the LP which would have allowed her to defend her title. She probably needed to do all 7 triples to beat Kwan in the LP to win the LP, even though that wasn't needed to win the event.

I don't know. Doubled Salchow attempts in both programs, QR the triple Salchow had little runout and a hand down on the Axel, and the LP had the poor attempt at the triple Salchow. Her technical marks in the QR were extremely low considering what she put out, but she did skate 2nd in the group.

By 2000, I'm pretty sure the ISU had already established the 'well-balanced' long program guidelines and Maria didn't really have an entire footwork sequence or spiral sequence. That could've also been a factor for some judges, even though Slutskaya really just casually went through most of her non-jump elements (including very minimal revolutions on spins--- only 3 revs on the flying camel!).

We discussed most of this in the retrospective thread, but looking back I'd have no issue with putting Slutskaya a very obvious 4th in the long program. I think it's a real toss-up between Maria and Vanessa for 2nd.