WADA confirm insufficient evidence against nearly all Russian athletes implicated in drug scandal

[MacMadame]

The theory is that they stopped taking the drugs at the proper time to test clean when they didn't get tested by the corrupt labs. This would give them a significant advantage because they could train with these PEDs and for longer times than athletes who had to be able to provide clean samples more regularly and often randomly.

This is how Lance Armstrong managed it according to some. He had help getting around the drug testing requirements so he could take PEDs and not get caught.

 

[hanca]

Well, most skaters compete let's say one competition per month throughout the season, so if you add the time when they would have to wait for the drug to get out of their system, would there be any time left for taking the drugs and benefitting from the drugs effect?

Besides,the timing would have to be very accurate and one would have to know how long exactly the drug stays in the system. Not to mention, the skaters can be approached any time to have drug tests, not only at the competition.

 

[Willin]

If you watch Icarus, the documentary starts off as Rodchenkov helping the director of the documentary dope without getting caught. (The documentary started out as one investigating how so many cycling people can dope without getting caught). He tried to get US doctors to help him dope, but none would ultimately agree. Instead, he was referred to Rodchenkov because the US doctors knew he had the knowledge to get away with doping and would be willing to help the director cheat for a bicycle race.

I can't explain Rodchenkov's system well, but basically athletes take very specific and controlled amounts of the substance each day while training and measuring parameters to report back to him. IIRC he also bragged about how he knew this method had worked. So it's entirely possible that these athletes were being coached by him about how to pass doping tests while doping.

I don't think all sports were involved, but certainly at least a few were. Unfortunately with the evidence destroyed we don't have any actual evidence and therefore can't prove guilt.

 

[MacMadame]

I don't think there are many PEDs that can help skaters. But what Hanca describes is exactly why athletes whose organizations help them cheat have an advantage over those who don't.

If you know you don't have to time your PED taking to avoid positive tests, you can take them as much as you want in the run-up to your season and then you stop in time to not be testing positive at the event. The athletes with clean NGBs don't have that advantage. They have to be much more careful.

It was never proven but there are rumors that Armstrong had some failed tests and that US Cycling covered it up. That gave him an advantage over other athletes. If the state organizations are in on it, it's impossible to keep a sport clean.

 

[Debbie S]

Besides,the timing would have to be very accurate and one would have to know how long exactly the drug stays in the system. Not to mention, the skaters can be approached any time to have drug tests, not only at the competition.

The East Germans did that for years. And they kept very detailed records. Not sure if random drug testing existed in the 70s and 80s, but as MacMadame pointed out, feds are in the position to help athletes cheat, if they want to.

 

[Tinami Amori]

WADA should have first quietly done the investigation and re-tests on all specific Russian athletes under suspicion, and then make a big announcement. They accused "the whole country" without a solid proof on hand.

I think the whole approach to doping control needs to be re-examined. As it is now, it is too subjective at times: singling out a legal substance "meldonium" which is NOT performances enhancing because it benefits "the Russians", while allowing certain US Athletes to take banned clearly a performance enhancing STEROIDS based on a childhood condition, while some years ago penalizing Elena Berezhnaya for taking a COLD MEDICINE...... That is ridiculous! and needs to be addressed.

 

[VGThuy]

I think the whole approach to doping control needs to be re-examined. As it is now, it is too subjective at times: singling out a legal substance "meldonium" which is NOT performances enhancing because it benefits "the Russians", while allowing certain US Athletes to take banned clearly a performance enhancing STEROIDS based on a childhood condition, while some years ago penalizing Elena Berezhnaya for taking a COLD MEDICINE...... That is ridiculous! and needs to be addressed.

Oh boy. Simone Biles still has ADHD and the fact that she was prescribed to it as a child and continues to be treated for it makes the case that it's a legitimate condition.

https://www.vox.com/2016/9/15/12915106/simone-biles-hack-adhd

I would get into how fishy it was for those hackers to reveal the records of certain American female athletes thinking it would cause a stir when all it showed was that they followed proper procedure that is available to EVERYONE and didn't keep anything from the proper organizations.

That said, I do think this whole process was really messed up and the whole Bobrova situation was shameful since there were legitimate questions about how long the substance stayed in one's body. And I do think you bring up good points about the subjectivity of what is banned and what isn't. That said, the reason why some substances that are not performance-enhancing but are banned is because they are used to mask banned substances. Then there's the question of why so many athletes were using that substance if it's not performance-enhancing nor do they have the condition that the substance is supposed to used to treat.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Oh boy. Simone Biles still has ADHD and the fact that she was prescribed to it as a child and continues to be treated for it makes the case that it's a legitimate condition..

Berezhnaya also had a legitimate cold, bought a legal over-the-counter commonly sold medicine, not intended for athletic enhancement....... and yet she was suspended.

Seems unfair that one athlete can take PERFORMANCE ENHANCING STEROIDS because of "health issue" and another can't take a cold-medicine....

 

[VGThuy]

Berezhnaya also had a legitimate cold, bought a legal over-the-counter commonly sold medicine, not intended for athletic enhancement....... and yet she was suspended.

As you know, the point was just to clarify the condition she actually has and is being treated for rather than the insinuations you made in your original post. And also, the difference is that one followed proper procedures and filled out all the paperwork that is available to all athletes and has consistently done so while another took a banned substance that was ban without receiving an exemption. I also think that whole hacking situation and which athletes were chosen to be outed is very interesting indeed as were the comments by Svetlana Khorkina revealing some outdated prejudicial attitudes.

Regarding Elena Berezhnaya, I do think in her case and in the case of Andrea Raducan, the whole ban now without looking at facts and context is way too harsh especially in the case of cold medicine when the athlete can show he/she has a cold...and in the case of Raducan, she didn't really have full control over what she was taking and fully trusted her team doctor to provide her treatment for her cold. I also think when it comes to the banned non-performance enhancing substances, if an athlete tests positive for it, there should be more investigation before deciding to strip someone of a medal or suspend them. I think more information should be found to determine whether they were using it to mask unauthorized use of PEDs. Maybe there's no practical way to do this, but I do think the process of near automatic suspension in some cases can be too draconian and over-inclusive.

 

[MacMadame]

Seems unfair that one athlete can take PERFORMANCE ENHANCING STEROIDS because of "health issue" and another can't take a cold-medicine....

The drugs that you take for ADHD are not steroids and not all steroids are performance-enhancing. There are no health conditions that I know of that anabolic steroids are used to treat so who is getting a TUE for them that you know of?

The drug that Biles takes is a stimulant. It can help with ADHD but it can also cause all sorts of problems if you take it and don't have ADHD. It doesn't make you stronger and it's unclear if it makes you more able to concentrate if you don't have ADHD. I don't know of too many athletes that take it to enhance performance. When was the last time someone took Ritalin and was busted by WADA?

I also think when it comes to the banned non-performance enhancing substances, if an athlete tests positive for it, there should be more investigation before deciding to strip someone of a medal or suspend them. I think more information should be found to determine whether they were using it to mask unauthorized use of PEDs. Maybe there's no practical way to do this, but I do think the process of near automatic suspension in some cases can be too draconian and over-inclusive.

I like the idea of using it more as a diagnostic. As in, if you test positive for a masking substance, you get more and different kinds of tests. But not an automatic ban.

 

[caseyedwards]

From the NY Times:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/12/sports/olympics/russian-doping-wada.html?_r=0

It doesn't mean they aren't guilty - just that the Russian Govt refused to cooperate & destroyed evidence.

"Richard McLaren, the investigator who spent much of the last two years deconstructing Russia’s schemes and identifying about 1,000 implicated athletes, indicated that many cases would be hard to prosecute given Russia’s lack of cooperation in providing lab data, and its practice of destroying tainted urine samples that would be plainly incriminating."

The investigation is not over yet - they only want to pursue the strongest cases.

"Mr. Niggli stressed that investigations into other athletes implicated in the doping system were continuing, and that officials needed to pursue the strongest cases first so that they would stand up against the inevitable legal challenges in world sport’s arbitration court. “Leading with a weak case or a poorly prepared case could negatively affect the outcome of all other cases,” the internal report said."

It's not the athletes they are really after, it is the system that encouraged and enabled the use of illegal drugs.

“We have to accept the fact that McLaren’s purpose was to prove a system, not individual violations,” Mr. Niggli said in the telephone interview. “There might have been more evidence out there in Russia for sure, but there was a limit to what he was able to get.”

Individual violations will prove the system. When they get the athletes phone and computers and their emails and texts and there are communications containing doping form numbers during events the system will be proven.

 

[Willin]

Berezhnaya also had a legitimate cold, bought a legal over-the-counter commonly sold medicine, not intended for athletic enhancement....... and yet she was suspended.

Seems unfair that one athlete can take PERFORMANCE ENHANCING STEROIDS because of "health issue" and another can't take a cold-medicine....

Maybe it's just me, but putting "health issue" in quotes in regards to an ADHD medicine is very insulting. ADHD is a very serious condition than can lead people to commit suicide, have violent outbursts, fail out of school, not be able to get a job, etc. With treatment, most people with ADHD can live a normal life and you would never know anything is wrong, but without treatment it can be terrible to have. Saying that it's a childhood condition is also incorrect. In fact, adult ADHD is becoming a major area of research because it's more prevalent than we had previously thought with more people needing help for it.
I know mental illness is stigmatized or even not recognized as existing in other cultures (perhaps in Eastern Europe considering the reaction to Simone's condition), but in the US, mental illness is seen as something we need to help people out with. Because people with mental illnesses deserve to live a normal life or as good of a life as we can help them achieve. In some cases that involves medicine, like for ADHD.
Also, as @MacMadame said, ADHD medications that are not performance-enhancing steroids. The only advantage Simone gets from these medications is being able to concentrate on par with a other gymnast. Although, the ADHD itself may be an advantage in that it gave her the energy to want to keep practicing and practicing as a kid, even at home.

As for the cold medicine issue, I agree that that's wrong. Athletes should be allowed to take cold medicine. Maybe they'll need documentation from a team physician to confirm you have a cold, but there's no reason anyone should be banned for not wanting to be coughing or blowing their nose endlessly for a couple days.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Maybe it's just me, but putting "health issue" in quotes in regards to an ADHD medicine is very insulting. ADHD is a very serious condition than can lead people to commit suicide, have violent outbursts, fail out of school, not be able to get a job, etc. With treatment, most people with ADHD can live a normal life and you would never know anything is wrong, but without treatment it can be terrible to have. Saying that it's a childhood condition is also incorrect. In fact, adult ADHD is becoming a major area of research because it's more prevalent than we had previously thought with more people needing help for it.
I know mental illness is stigmatized or even not recognized as existing in other cultures (perhaps in Eastern Europe considering the reaction to Simone's condition), but in the US, mental illness is seen as something we need to help people out with. Because people with mental illnesses deserve to live a normal life or as good of a life as we can help them achieve. In some cases that involves medicine, like for ADHD.
Also, as @MacMadame said, ADHD medications that are not performance-enhancing steroids. The only advantage Simone gets from these medications is being able to concentrate on par with a other gymnast. Although, the ADHD itself may be an advantage in that it gave her the energy to want to keep practicing and practicing as a kid, even at home.

As for the cold medicine issue, I agree that that's wrong. Athletes should be allowed to take cold medicine. Maybe they'll need documentation from a team physician to confirm you have a cold, but there's no reason anyone should be banned for not wanting to be coughing or blowing their nose endlessly for a couple days.

Posted on ABC (respectable enough, right?): Biles takes a drug which is banned. Drugs are banned in sports because they give athletes unfair advantage. There is a reason why they are banned.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/simone-biles-adhd-meds-common-drugs-banned-olympics/story?id=42081189
Biles is taking this drug to help her VERY legitimate condition. But the drug also gives her a physical advantage over other athletes; it fixes her condition, but it also gives her EXTRA which other athletes don't have. That's not fair.

 

[caseyedwards]

Oh boy. Simone Biles still has ADHD and the fact that she was prescribed to it as a child and continues to be treated for it makes the case that it's a legitimate condition.

https://www.vox.com/2016/9/15/12915106/simone-biles-hack-adhd

I would get into how fishy it was for those hackers to reveal the records of certain American female athletes thinking it would cause a stir when all it showed was that they followed proper procedure that is available to EVERYONE and didn't keep anything from the proper organizations.

That said, I do think this whole process was really messed up and the whole Bobrova situation was shameful since there were legitimate questions about how long the substance stayed in one's body. And I do think you bring up good points about the subjectivity of what is banned and what isn't. That said, the reason why some substances that are not performance-enhancing but are banned is because they are used to mask banned substances. Then there's the question of why so many athletes were using that substance if it's not performance-enhancing nor do they have the condition that the substance is supposed to used to treat.

If you need drugs to do gymnastics maybe you don't get to do gymnastics? Anyone who needs banned performance enhancing drugs is not eligible. They can do something else.

 

[VGThuy]

Athletes get medical exemptions for legitimate conditions so long as they follow proper paperwork, procedure, and the substance isn't one in which a exemption is NEVER given. Such as Irina Slutskaya during 2004-2006. No one would argue, unless they wanted to look foolish, that she should not have been allowed to receive her treatment that helped her condition so that she could still compete at the elite level. Without that treatment, she may not have been able to skate the way she did during those seasons.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Athletes get medical exemptions for legitimate conditions so long as they follow proper paperwork, procedure, and the substance isn't one in which a exemption is NEVER given. Such as Irina Slutskaya during 2004-2006. No one would argue, unless they wanted to look foolish, that she should not have been allowed to receive her treatment that helped her condition so that she could still compete at the elite level. Without that treatment, she may not have been able to skate the way she did during those seasons.

I don't recall Irina had to take any drugs for her heart condition that were banned. If that's in correct, let me know, it is important information.

 

[VGThuy]

I don't recall Irina had to take any drugs for her heart condition that were banned. If that's in correct, let me know, it is important information.

I remember at the time that she had to receive clearance and get a permit for taking the steroids because skaters wouldn't be allowed to just use them otherwise. I know some people have argued it unfairly helped her perform during those seasons but I also remember a lot of health professionals saying one cannot make those accusations without knowing exactly how her condition was affecting her and how she was dealing with the side effects from the treatment, which could be quite serious.

Either way, there is a great likelihood that she would not have been able to perform without such treatment given the seriousness of her heart condition, and we have already touched upon the subjectivity of what's on the ban list and what's not. This discussion is getting into accommodation and accessibility territory which can be another debate.

 

[Willin]

@Tinami Amori @caseyedwards
While some medications can help (like Ritalin), nothing is a magic pill that instantly turns an athlete into superman. While they can push one top athlete over another, or improve things slightly, you're not going to be as good as Simone is solely by the grace of her medication - you still have to be very athletic and work your butt off. Simone's hardly the only athlete with ADHD: Pete Rose, Michael Phelps, Terry Bradshaw, Caitlin Jenner, Greg Louganis, and Andres Torres all have or had ADHD. In fact, this article suggests that ADHD is an advantage in many sports outside of any medication, making some of those with ADHD intrinsically better at sports.

As for exemptions for legitimate conditions, WADA has a list of conditions they have specific exemptions for. For these conditions, they have a description of what treatment they will accept based on current international medical standards and how the medications may be contraindicated in athletics if it's applicable. They also provide a huge laundry list of information a medical professional has to provide to prove this is a legitimate condition that you have a history of, and criteria for diagnosis that the professional must provide evidence of for WADA to grant the exemption.

 

[Tinami Amori]

@Tinami Amori @caseyedwards
While some medications can help (like Ritalin), nothing is a magic pill that instantly turns an athlete into superman.

Then why did WADA singled out Meldonium, which has no affect on athlete during performance/play? Because "the Russians" used it?

 

[kwanfan1818]

Then there's the question of why so many athletes were using that substance if it's not performance-enhancing nor do they have the condition that the substance is supposed to used to treat.

That's fairly simple: there are lots of substances -- medicines, supplements, herbs, foods -- that are perfectly legal, but people think could give them advantage, and the medical networks are small and recommendations spread easily. Why wouldn't you take something if it was legal and could possibly give you an advantage? The placebo effect, too, is alive and well and works like a charm in many instances.

Seems unfair that one athlete can take PERFORMANCE ENHANCING STEROIDS because of "health issue" and another can't take a cold-medicine....

If she had know what was in it, she could have asked for the same exemption as anyone else, like Biles did. The issue was that she didn't know what was in it when she took it. This is common going from country to country, where the same brands have different composition.

WADA sucks as an organization. If they can't prove that something is a masking agent or has performance-enhancing effects or is actively dangerous, or whatever they claim is their scope in their own documentation, they should STFU and stay out of everything else, IMO.

 

[Willin]

@Tinami Amori Probably because they were not using it for a legitimate medical reason. The reasoning behind taking it as stated by some athletes was that it would "protect the heart." This medication does not do that - it treats existing heart conditions - none of which the athletes have documentation for. Meldonium is not used in the US, but there are American-approved medications with the same physiological effect that are banned by WADA. Meldonium is officially listed under metabolic modulators along with many American-made medications.

And it does have a major effect on athletes during play - it increases blood flow to the extremities, increasing oxygenation of tissues, increasing exercise capacity and endurance in athletes.

 

[lala]

What? are? you? talking about?....

At the recent Rio Olympics Russia has the 4th highest medal count while every Russian athlete was under a microscope, and the Russian team was missing 1/3 of their athletes in disciplines with high medal prospects... not say guaranteed medal prospects.

..... and no i am not listing all the sports events since the Olys where Russians won or medaled at the major international competitions......

Actually RUSADA was given a permit to resume operations under western supervision quite sometime ago. For some reason it did not make the news.
http://wtop.com/business-finance/20...replaces-isinbayeva-at-russian-doping-agency/

I just wanted to say if the dope was widely used by the Russians why they were behind US and China all the time? Who are clean as we know..

 

[bardtoob]

Filing the paperwork is available to everybody, and the Russians are an advanced economy, so I do not see a reason why all the individual athletes could not just go to their doctor and get everything signed. No big deal. No judgement.

Regarding Meldonium, the athlete CAN USE Meldonium if they have the condition for which it is approved by the regulatory agencies of their country and their doctor signs the WADA paperwork.

The group of athletes at the Euro Games that did not report using Meldonium are the one's that screwed it up for everybody. Assuming the athlete using the Meldonium had a legitimate reason, they could have simply reported it. No big deal.

 

[Tinami Amori]

@Tinami Amori Probably because they were not using it for a legitimate medical reason.

But if something is legal, and it helps the athletes, especially from a particular country, and available to everyone else, then making it "illegal" is called "targeting a group", right? Just like with grass/dope and high incarceration of African-Americans... Dope is illegal, but a particular segment of population uses it, there fore as it is called "disproportionately incarcerated" there for it is called "group targeting", right?

But this substance (meldonium) was legal.... Black Tea is also legal! Do you know that if you take 5-7 bags of Black Tea, put it in a cup of water, you get what we call in Russia "chefit", an huge energy boosting drink, which for a certain period of time gives you a lot of strength and power... So, if WADA learns that an athlete drinks hot water with 5 bags of tea and it helps his energy, should they make TEA illegal?

Also, what if athlete's body react extremely favorable to a natural substance, a root, a fruit, etc..., and the athlete consumes it in large quantities.... jinsing root extract for example.... should it be banned to?

 

[leafygreens]

It doesn't mean they aren't guilty - just that the Russian Govt refused to cooperate & destroyed evidence.

I'm floored people think it's ok to sue WADA because their federation destroyed evidence. I would actually love it if they sued and we see what comes out in discovery.

The theory is that they stopped taking the drugs at the proper time to test clean when they didn't get tested by the corrupt labs. This would give them a significant advantage because they could train with these PEDs and for longer times than athletes who had to be able to provide clean samples more regularly and often randomly.

I don't think there are many PEDs that can help skaters. But what Hanca describes is exactly why athletes whose organizations help them cheat have an advantage over those who don't.

If drugs do not help figure skating, then why are skaters drug tested? Figure skating is a sport of strength and endurance, as are most other sports. Just because you wear sequins does not make you immune from taking PEDs. These drugs have come a long way from the 80s when you would bulk up from taking them. Figure skaters should not be given a free pass when suspicion arises in drug testing. It is not fair to athletes in other sports.

Biles is taking this drug to help her VERY legitimate condition. But the drug also gives her a physical advantage over other athletes; it fixes her condition, but it also gives her EXTRA which other athletes don't have. That's not fair.

Biles is already at a disadvantage because of her condition. By taking the drug, she is brought back to a level playing field. If Ritalin alone produced phenomenal gymnasts, then every ADHD sufferer would be a gymnast.

@Tinami Amori @caseyedwards
While some medications can help (like Ritalin), nothing is a magic pill that instantly turns an athlete into superman. While they can push one top athlete over another, or improve things slightly, you're not going to be as good as Simone is solely by the grace of her medication - you still have to be very athletic and work your butt off.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Biles is already at a disadvantage because of her condition. By taking the drug, she is brought back to a level playing field. If Ritalin alone produced phenomenal gymnasts, then every ADHD sufferer would be a gymnast.

... and if a person is born with a bone deformity in the right foot, and wants to be a cyclist, should we put a little motor on the transmission, to compensate for lack of push on the pedal?

 

[Willin]

You'd correct the bone deformity with surgery. If needed they'd get an amputation and a prosthetic so they can compete in the paralympics or the regular Olympics if they qualify. Athletes are allowed to get surgery and wear prosthetics if they have a legitimate reason to do so.

But if something is legal, and it helps the athletes, especially from a particular country, and available to everyone else, then making it "illegal" is called "targeting a group", right? Just like with grass/dope and high incarceration of African-Americans... Dope is illegal, but a particular segment of population uses it, there fore as it is called "disproportionately incarcerated" there for it is called "group targeting", right?

But this substance (meldonium) was legal.... Black Tea is also legal! Do you know that if you take 5-7 bags of Black Tea, put it in a cup of water, you get what we call in Russia "chefit", an huge energy boosting drink, which for a certain period of time gives you a lot of strength and power... So, if WADA learns that an athlete drinks hot water with 5 bags of tea and it helps his energy, should they make TEA illegal?

Also, what if athlete's body react extremely favorable to a natural substance, a root, a fruit, etc..., and the athlete consumes it in large quantities.... jinsing root extract for example.... should it be banned to?

Well, since similar/equivalent substances from the US and Western Europe were already banned before Meldonium was, I would assume that Meldonium was only legal by WADA standards because it wasn't on their radar before all those tests came up, and they banned it to correct that fact.

Black tea and all its equivalents from every country are legal everywhere, so I don't see how that's equivalent. Natural substances don't have enough research about what they do behind them yet to be banned, or about their efficacy in doing what they said to do, or about their dose. Actually, there are banned medications derived from natural substances, but they are banned because we know how much you need to take for the intended effect and that the intended effect actually happens. Of course that hasn't stopped WADA in the past from banning stuff, but I'm sure they know if they ban something with little reason someone will complain.

 

[bardtoob]

I once heard of one neighbor making another neighbor's property unlivable, then buying the unlivable property for pennies on the dollar because it was unlivable. Thereafter, the now owner of both properties stopped doing what made the newly acquired property unlivable. This was legal, primarily because there was no way to enforce the rights of the party that sold before selling.

Anyway, it just came to mind because of one of Tinami's arguments:

"But if something is legal, and it helps the athletes, especially from a particular country, and available to everyone else, then making it "illegal" is called "targeting a group", right? Just like with grass/dope and high incarceration of African-Americans..."

I was surprised by it because I am not used to Tinami using a victim's argument.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Well, since similar/equivalent substances from the US and Western Europe were already banned before Meldonium was, I would assume that Meldonium was only legal by WADA standards because it wasn't on their radar before all those tests came up, and they banned it to correct that fact..

The US/European equivalents (as i looked up back when the issue took place) is Quaterine, MET-88.
I did not find them on the WADA banned list. This is a fair question. Do you WADA info showing they are banned? If yes, i'd like to know. But it would be strange since research found the "substance" (under any name) shows little proof that it is performance enhancing.

USA Today: https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...rts-wada-performance-enhancing-drug/82663156/

 

[thvu]

... and if a person is born with a bone deformity in the right foot, and wants to be a cyclist, should we put a little motor on the transmission, to compensate for lack of push on the pedal?

I know I'm walking a fine line here, but I agree. Biles being allowed to take amphetamines is total garbage. Of course an athlete on an amphetamine is going to be able to outperform the competition. An athlete like Slutskaya taking steroids for physical health reasons is totally different to me. Same with Serena Williams (who almost died from her embolism.) The latter two needed the drugs for health reasons. Biles did not, and had a clear (and IMO unfair) advantage.