WADA confirm insufficient evidence against nearly all Russian athletes implicated in drug scandal

[bardtoob]

WADA says any drug not explicitly banned must:

1) be listed by the athletes on a form during a drug test
2) any drug used must be approved by a physician for the condition it is approved by regulatory agencies
3) the medical need must be reported

After the Euro Games incident, individual athletes should have been banned for not meeting the criteria. However, instead a deal was cut where the substance was banned with a grace period of up to the end of the year. Why? Because they did not want to ban 15% of the athletes at the Euro Games, many of which were top performers at the Euro Games.

 

[MacMadame]

Biles is taking this drug to help her VERY legitimate condition. But the drug also gives her a physical advantage over other athletes; it fixes her condition, but it also gives her EXTRA which other athletes don't have. That's not fair.

What proof do you have that it gives her *extra* that other athletes don't get? That is not how these drugs normally work.

@Tinami Amori Probably because they were not using it for a legitimate medical reason. The reasoning behind taking it as stated by some athletes was that it would "protect the heart." This medication does not do that

The doctor who created the medicine says it does have a protective effect. Also, there are no studies showing Meldonium enhances performance. WADA's decisions must be made based on science and data, not "lots of athletes take it so it must be doing something."

Figure skating is a sport of strength and endurance, as are most other sports.

Skating requires a certain amount of strength and endurance but it's not got the same physical requirements as, say, cycling or boxing. Things like flexibility and balance and knowing where you are in the air are also important. Doing some off-ice training and program run throughs is enough to get the strength and endurance you need.

It's not like all the athletes are doing off-ice training like crazy so one athlete takes some EPO and suddenly starts winning everything so now the other athletes are tempted to cheat too. At this point, you even have very successful athletes who skimp on off-ice training and are fine so it's just a completely different ball game for figure skating.

(And it has nothing to do with sequins.)

 

[Tinami Amori]

What proof do you have that it gives her *extra* that other athletes don't get?

What is the reason for banning it for all other athletes?

 

[bardtoob]

What proof do you have that it gives her *extra* that other athletes don't get? That is not how these drugs normally work.

What is the reason for banning it them for all other athletes?

The reason is that the athletes are not using the drug for the medical condition it is approved for by the drug regulatory agencies under the supervision of a physician.

 

[MacMadame]

That suggests it gives athletes without the condition an edge. It doesn't prove that athletes with a condition get an edge.

As was pointed out in an article linked above, Billes has been taking this drug since she was a child and, during that time, she was also a very inconsistent competitor. It certainly wasn't giving her an edge then. This makes it unlikely that it's giving her an edge now vs. her working hard with a sports psychologist to be a better competitor.

 

[thvu]

Have you ever taken an amphetamine @MacMadame ?

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

Serena and Venus Williams have a list of approved drugs that is long enough to put each of them in an assisted living facility. My children play tennis, and this whole issue is widely discussed in the tennis community. Obviously Serena & Venus aren't the only ones; they were the ones whose info was leaked. On the other hand, Simone Biles has a well-documented condition. And takes medication for it. But what's the impact of the athletes approved medication on their performance? This whole issue is so ugly, so complicated that I cannot imagine what could be done to resolve it.

 

[VGThuy]

I know they work similarly, but the hack showed she was approved to use Ritalin, which is a methylphenidate not an amphetamine.

On the other hand, Simone Biles has a well-documented condition. And takes medication for it. But what's the impact of the athletes approved medication on their performance? This whole issue is so ugly, so complicated that I cannot imagine what could be done to resolve it.

I think that's the key question that I doubt most of us are really qualified to answer quite honestly. I'd love it if someone with a scientific/medical background with some working knowledge of treatment of ADHD could post here.

For my layman's perspective based on personal experience, I know some people who receive treatment for ADHD and how they function with treatment and what happens when they go off treatment and their ability to perform daily activities. I will share that I have a brother who was not diagnosed as a child and was later diagnosed when he was older and he has had behavior issues such as defiance and conduct disorder that's continued into adulthood stemming from things like lack of impulse control.

I sort of think there's a lot of assumptions being made about how it affected Simone's gymnastics potential and how it generally affects people who have ADHD. I think we need to consider how ADHD manifests itself physically when left untreated and how it can severely affect's one's ability to function in normal daily activity before we start making base assumptions about how treating it gives unfair advantages. I mean it may, but I don't know if anyone here knows for sure. I'm sure it does to people who don't have ADHD, which goes into adderall and ritalin abuse by those who don't need it and use it temporarily when they need to like in cases that we've seen in the Football, Baseball, etc.

I kind of think some posts here stem from a real suspicion that her condition and of whether ADHD itself is real and showing some ignorance of how it affects people who need the treatment and what treatment does to them when it is detected early.

 

[Tinami Amori]

That suggests it gives athletes without the condition an edge. It doesn't prove that athletes with a condition get an edge.

What i read about it (not everything but some information) indicates to me that it is a slippery slope..
http://brainposts.blogspot.com/2011/06/adhd-and-athlete.html

"There is increasing research examining the effect of ADHD stimulant drug use and performance. Acute administration of methylphenidate or placebo to a group of cyclists (without ADHD) resulted in prolonged peak performance. Whether chronic administration of stimulants in those with ADHD improves performance in unclear. However, there is some data that supports a drop in motor performance in athletes with ADHD on days they skip or miss their ADHD medication.

Athletes commonly develop a pattern of dosing their medication in a manner that accommodates their sporting activity and perceived effects of medication on performance. Parr notes this is somewhat of an individual decision. He notes some baseball pitchers that always use their ADHD medications on days they are charting pitches but many do not take it before days they actually pitch."

 

[WildRose]

Anti-doping agencies call on IOC to ban Russia from 2018 Winter Olympics | Sport | The Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/sep/14/anti-doping-agencies-tell-ioc-ban-russia-2018-winter-olympics?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

[bardtoob]

Anti-doping agencies call on IOC to ban Russia from 2018 Winter Olympics | Sport | The Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/sep/14/anti-doping-agencies-tell-ioc-ban-russia-2018-winter-olympics?CMP=share_btn_tw

Yeah, I am not thrilled by this.

 

[lala]

^^

 

[VGThuy]

Anti-doping agencies call on IOC to ban Russia from 2018 Winter Olympics | Sport | The Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/sep/14/anti-doping-agencies-tell-ioc-ban-russia-2018-winter-olympics?CMP=share_btn_tw

After everything that has happened this week, I truly was not expecting this.

 

[bardtoob]

After everything that has happened this week, I truly was not expecting this.

These days I am kind of used to the "Double Down"

 

[misskarne]

Anti-doping agencies call on IOC to ban Russia from 2018 Winter Olympics | Sport | The Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/sep/14/anti-doping-agencies-tell-ioc-ban-russia-2018-winter-olympics?CMP=share_btn_tw

Can't open the article. Which agencies? Lemme guess, the hypocritical Americans?

 

[MacMadame]

Have you ever taken an amphetamine @MacMadame ?

Can you do a triple axel?

 

[bardtoob]

Can't open the article. Which agencies? Lemme guess, the hypocritical Americans?

A joint statement by 17 Anti-doping agencies.

 

[WildRose]

Sorry all, hopefully this link will work:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...-russia-2018-winter-olympics?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

[VGThuy]

Can't open the article. Which agencies? Lemme guess, the hypocritical Americans?

"The NADO leaders came from Austria, Australia, Britain, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Japan, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, the United States, plus the Institute of National Anti-Doping Organizations."

https://www.rferl.org/a/world-anti-...ses-against-95-russian-athletes/28734555.html

 

[misskarne]

"The NADO leaders came from Austria, Australia, Britain, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Japan, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, the United States, plus the Institute of National Anti-Doping Organizations."

https://www.rferl.org/a/world-anti-...ses-against-95-russian-athletes/28734555.html

Do tell - how many multiple-time dopers have we ever permitted to run for us at the Olympics, while screaming against it?

 

[bardtoob]

"The NADO leaders came from Austria, Australia, Britain, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Japan, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, the United States, plus the Institute of National Anti-Doping Organizations."

https://www.rferl.org/a/world-anti-...ses-against-95-russian-athletes/28734555.html

The participation of Denmark, Finland, Norway, and Sweden is interesting, maybe with Germany and the Netherlands.

I guess I only expected Anglophone countries with France as a swing state.

 

[VGThuy]

Do tell - how many multiple-time dopers have we ever permitted to run for us at the Olympics, while screaming against it?

I know many countries have had athletes who have been caught doping in sport including Australia.

 

[Deleted member 40371]

Can't open the article. Which agencies? Lemme guess, the hypocritical Americans?

I think the author is Irish, and statement is from 17 anti-doping agaencies ( USA, UK, CANADA, Germany and Australia included ) of Inado. Australian government was represented by Susan Ley when the scandal broke out, this is before her own scandal came out when she used tax payers money to fly, where the sole purpose of the trip was to buy a house. So you are partly correct in your assertion, this is a Canadian, British and US dominated event.

Expect far worse cases of letters and interview from few Canadians like Dick Pound, McLaren and Beckie Scott. Remember WADA are facing a huge problem as well if they can’t prove state sponsored doping. They will be shut down slowly for some other agency. Expect the likes of the three to give bombastic interviews where they will ask for a complete ban on Russia, even if they can’t support their argument, the narration and storyline is the key. Also expect these kind of propaganda to prop up before every major event in Russia. For example leading up to the confederation cup, Dick Pound said Russian footballers were doping, only FIFA to come out with doping results of Russian footballers. So expect these kinds of news leading up to the World Cup in 2018.

 

[misskarne]

I know many countries have had athletes who have been caught doping in sport including Australia.

I'm not denying that. But how many of those countries were screaming for Russia to be banned while choosing a twice-caught cheat to run for them and being proud of it?

 

[VGThuy]

Please inform me of a bit more. Which specific U.S. agency was celebrating the twice caught cheat and was that before or after they were caught? Is that agency listed among the 17 agencies cited here?

If you're considering all the separate U.S. Orgs of being the same and speaking with the same voice and conflating that with the entire country then would it be fair to say the Australian Anti-Doping agency represents all of Australia when choosing to side with the "hypocritical Americans"? What does that say about them?

 

[Willin]

The US/European equivalents (as i looked up back when the issue took place) is Quaterine, MET-88.
I did not find them on the WADA banned list. This is a fair question. Do you WADA info showing they are banned? If yes, i'd like to know. But it would be strange since research found the "substance" (under any name) shows little proof that it is performance enhancing.

Quaterine is not the US Equivalent - it is another name for the same active ingredient, and the active ingredient hasn't been approved in the US. The US does not use this exact drug, but ones with the same basic biological effects. Based on the category it's in, they banned it because of it's effects on estrogen (not its vasodilating effects, aka the medical use) - of which there's an entire category of drugs from all over the world banned.

One must also note that Meldonium is typically distributed for a course of 4-6 weeks of treatment up to 2-3 times per year. The treatment course is typically prescribed post-Heart Attack or Stroke. Clearly, the athletes were using the drug for longer than this recommended doses and not for the correct indication (unless previously healthy incredibly fit athletes were somehow having an epidemic of strokes/heart attacks). Sharapova said she had taken it continuously for 10 years before she was caught. So it it not being prescribed correctly to the athletes.

The doctor who created the medicine says it does have a protective effect. Also, there are no studies showing Meldonium enhances performance. WADA's decisions must be made based on science and data, not "lots of athletes take it so it must be doing something."

Just because the doctor who made it (and therefore has a financial interest in it) says it has a protective effect doesn't mean it actually does. In fact, the reason it's not in use in the US is because the manufacturer doesn't want to do clinical trials to prove its efficacy. The studies done to prove its efficacy do not meet US standards (ie. many are only on mice/boars - not humans).

One of the few good studies showed that it could improve the amount of time post-heart attack patients could exercise for before feeling tired. Whether this happens in athletes is debatable because there's no good studies on it. There is biological plausibility for it helping athletes, just no proof. A more recent article in the BMJ reported that athletes believed it helped athletic performance.

So while there's no good evidence that it helps athletic performance (I agree with that), there is also no evidence that it works for anything other than what it's prescribed for - heart attacks.

 

[sam-skwantch]

Lol...WADA is such a joke. Can't stand the political posturing and dirty nature of it and the top ADAs. I'm not sure how anyone can have any confidence in them.

 

[MacMadame]

One of the few good studies showed that it could improve the amount of time post-heart attack patients could exercise for before feeling tired. Whether this happens in athletes is debatable because there's no good studies on it. There is biological plausibility for it helping athletes, just no proof. A more recent article in the BMJ reported that athletes believed it helped athletic performance.

IME this is how it works in high-level sports. Athletes (and their teams) are constantly looking for an edge and will try pretty much anything. Companies constantly formulate products based on science that indicates "biological plausibility" but not good data. The athletes swoop onto this new thing and, at first, they all swear it helps. But the science isn't really there to support it and, if it really helped, they'd stick with it but instead they are on to the next thing.

And that's the legal stuff. You hear whispers about the same thing happening behind the scenes when it comes to banned substances.

It is both annoying and scary to watch.

 

[sam-skwantch]

Does the original NY Times story indicate that not one international governing body even sought to interview or speak to Rodchenkov regarding the Russian scheme? Can this be possible?

I'd give anything for an interview with thugs at IAAF that were encouraging Russian Track stars to dope and then extorting money from them. I bet they could tell some interesting tales on the WADA folks and those mysterious off shore accounts. WADA and IOC seem to have been able to keep the lid on this one effectively. Anyone have any follow up info on the culprits at IAAF that encouraged and enabled track and field doping for profit?

 

[skatingguy]

Serena and Venus Williams have a list of approved drugs that is long enough to put each of them in an assisted living facility. My children play tennis, and this whole issue is widely discussed in the tennis community. Obviously Serena & Venus aren't the only ones; they were the ones whose info was leaked. On the other hand, Simone Biles has a well-documented condition. And takes medication for it. But what's the impact of the athletes approved medication on their performance? This whole issue is so ugly, so complicated that I cannot imagine what could be done to resolve it.

Venus Williams has an auto-immune condition - Sjorgren's Syndrome. I can't find the list of medical exemptions that were released for Serena Williams, but many of them were for medications taken while she suffered a life threatening blood clot in her leg.