Valieva Banned for Four Years, Effective December 25, 2021

[Colonel Green]

So with Russia Canada appealing then technically they can’t award medals yet? Russia wouldn’t win the gold … but it would cause a potentially 1 year delay? Wtf does it take a freaking year.

I think they could hold the ceremony now (and redistribute later if it came to that). Russia obviously wouldn’t participate.

 

[overedge]

Good find, @Allskate

 

[Allskate]

Good find, @Allskate

Thanks, but it was @karen-Wand @marbri that found the document. I just noticed that reporters and skating officials weren't mentioning it.

 

[Judy]

I think they could hold the ceremony now (and redistribute later if it came to that). Russia obviously wouldn’t participate.

Can they do that legally?

 

[fsfann]

If this doesn't get dealt with pronto, I can see some pretty interesting happening in Montreal. Maybe we'll have a repeat of audience "disapproval" when they introduce the ISU representatives????

 

[overedge]

Thanks, but it was @karen-Wand @marbri that found the document. I just noticed that reporters and skating officials weren't mentioning it.

Never doubt the power of FSUers to find information. Like when @oleada did some math and discovered this https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/age-discrepancies-for-chinese-skaters.77519/

 

[bwayrose7]

Scrolling Twitter and found an interesting and potentially frustrating wrinkle. The account is a private one due to its discussions of abuse in sport, but they seem to be saying that the TE document we’ve all been looking at is not, in fact, the final one governing the event.

“This is in accordance with a last minute revision to the team event rules that stated points would not be redistributed if a competitor was disqualified. The intention in context of the other revisions to the TE rules was disqualified due to a Covid+ test but it didn’t say that.”

Obviously we have no proof of this later document - and Skate Canada, at least, seems to be appealing based on the version we’re all reading - but it does raise a possibility behind the ISU decision besides the two reasons (incompetence and placating Russia) that have been discussed today.

 

[Coco]

But why would someone be disqualified for covid? Banned from future phases of competition, sure, but not DQed.

 

[manhn]

So, if someone had competed in the short and in between got tested and were found positive for YKW, they would be disqualified for long of course, but why would their points from the short be removed in the first place?

ETA: and wouldn’t the team be allowed to use a replacement anyway?

 

[overedge]

Scrolling Twitter and found an interesting and potentially frustrating wrinkle. The account is a private one due to its discussions of abuse in sport, but they seem to be saying that the TE document we’ve all been looking at is not, in fact, the final one governing the event.

“This is in accordance with a last minute revision to the team event rules that stated points would not be redistributed if a competitor was disqualified. The intention in context of the other revisions to the TE rules was disqualified due to a Covid+ test but it didn’t say that.”

Obviously we have no proof of this later document - and Skate Canada, at least, seems to be appealing based on the version we’re all reading - but it does raise a possibility behind the ISU decision besides the two reasons (incompetence and placating Russia) that have been discussed today.

I'm more inclined to believe that the ISU read the version of the document that supported the outcome they wanted to achieve.

 

[zebobes]

Scrolling Twitter and found an interesting and potentially frustrating wrinkle. The account is a private one due to its discussions of abuse in sport, but they seem to be saying that the TE document we’ve all been looking at is not, in fact, the final one governing the event.

“This is in accordance with a last minute revision to the team event rules that stated points would not be redistributed if a competitor was disqualified. The intention in context of the other revisions to the TE rules was disqualified due to a Covid+ test but it didn’t say that.”

Obviously we have no proof of this later document - and Skate Canada, at least, seems to be appealing based on the version we’re all reading - but it does raise a possibility behind the ISU decision besides the two reasons (incompetence and placating Russia) that have been discussed today.

How can a revision not be made public? Did the poster show the actual wording of the revision?

Man, if the ISU doesn't do a complete rewrite of the TE document after all of this hubbub... I also hope that this inspires someone to come up with a better scoring system that doesn't give so much weight to the short while they are at it.

 

[bwayrose7]

So, if someone had competed in the short and in between got tested and were found positive for YKW, they would be disqualified for long of course, but why would their points from the short be removed in the first place?

ETA: and wouldn’t the team be allowed to use a replacement anyway?

That wording had me confused too. The whole wording of the claim was confusing, but what I found interesting was the possibility that there could be a later document, period, that might have left a loophole. The document we’ve seen today is from December 2019, and I could definitely imagine last-minute COVID-related changes muddying the waters in sloppy language some way.

 

[Allskate]

“This is in accordance with a last minute revision to the team event rules that stated points would not be redistributed if a competitor was disqualified. The intention in context of the other revisions to the TE rules was disqualified due to a Covid+ test but it didn’t say that.”

So, if someone had competed in the short and in between got tested and were found positive for YKW, they would be disqualified for long of course, but why would their points from the short be removed in the first place?

Yeah. That doesn't make sense. You would think that the rule in that circumstance would be that the score from the SP counts. There would be no need to redistribute anything in that circumstance. I don't know if testing positive for COVID simply led to withdrawals or if those athletes technically were disqualified. But, even if such athletes technically were disqualified and they didn't want Rule 353 to result in a change in results from the SP in that situation, you would think that they would just make an exception to Rule 353, not eliminate the entire reference to Rule 353. But, maybe I'm just expecting too much competence from the ISU.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

There's an 8-year statute of limitations on drug cases. After that period of time it would be very difficult to redistribute medals, and any attempt to do so would probably be overturned at CAS, and the Swiss Federal Tribunal.

Is that new? Lance Armstrong was stripped of all results from 1998 on in 2011, so 13 years later for the earliest results.

 

[Allskate]

So, if someone had competed in the short and in between got tested and were found positive for YKW, they would be disqualified for long of course, but why would their points from the short be removed in the first place?

Because Rule 353(4)(a) contemplates situations where someone is disqualified after they have skated. It says: “Disqualified competitors will lose their placements and be officially noted in the intermediate and final results as disqualified (DSQ). Competitors having finished the competition and who initially placed lower than the disqualified competitor(s) will move up accordingly in their placement(s).”

I can see why it was written that way. Disqualifications generally are situations where the person shouldn't have been allowed to compete or did something wrong in connection with competing. But, testing positive for COVID between the short and the long program, even assuming that it results in a "disqualification," is different, isn't about eligibility or misconduct, and should have different consequences. They shouldn't just entirely eliminate the applicability of Rule 353 to the team event.

 

[manhn]

But as Coco said, why would that make that person disqualified? They just can’t compete in the next phase, just like half of the other skaters. All of their points remained.

 

[skatingguy]

Is that new? Lance Armstrong was stripped of all results from 1998 on in 2011, so 13 years later for the earliest results.

Under US law time is prevented from running for limitation purposes, where a person has wrongfully concealed his own conduct and thereby prevented discovery of his own wrong, until the facts are discovered or should with reasonable diligence have been discovered (this is analogous to section 32 Limitation Act 1980 under English law). USADA decided to extend the limitation period in the Armstrong case because it concluded Armstrong had deliberately concealed his doping from USADA by: lying under oath; lying in a French judicial organisation; intimidating witnesses; and soliciting false affidavits.

The UCI has criticised the USADA decision in this respect by stating that “it would have limited disciplinary proceedings to violations asserted to have occurred during the eight years preceding the opening of such proceedings”. The UCI argues that the Code makes no provision for reference to national law, and contends that “it would be in full contradiction with the purpose of harmonisation of the Code that an action could be commenced against one athlete but not against another because of different national legislations governing the statute of limitations”. Whilst the UCI considered this did not amount to a sufficient ground for it to appeal, its decision commenting on the case suggested such a responsibility rested with WADA.

It is now clear that WADA disagrees with the UCI’s analysis, and has decided not to appeal the Armstrong decision. After conducting a review of the case it has stated that the interpretation given by USADA [on the statute of limitation point] is “proper and supported by case law”.

Armstrong, USADA, the UCI, WADA and limitation periods in doping cases | Littleton Chambers

 

[Allskate]

But as Coco said, why would that make that person disqualified? They just can’t compete in the next phase, just like half of the other skaters. All of their points remained.

We're all speculating at this point. I don't know if the rules in Beijing technically resulted in someone being labeled as "disqualified" if they tested positive for COVID. They might have disqualified people with COVID in order to prevent someone from insisting on taking part in an event even if they had COVID and were infectious. If they technically were "disqualified," then I can see why the ISU would not want the language of Rule 353 to apply to them. But, if that were the case, the ISU should have just made an exception to Rule 353, not completely removed its applicability to the team event.

 

[skatingguy]

So, if someone had competed in the short and in between got tested and were found positive for YKW, they would be disqualified for long of course, but why would their points from the short be removed in the first place?

A positive COVID test would be like a withdrawal because of injury, or any other illness. The athlete hasn't done anything wrong so they are disqualified just unable to compete.

ETA: and wouldn’t the team be allowed to use a replacement anyway?

As long as that substitute was named prior to the start of the free skates.

 

[MacMadame]

Is that new? Lance Armstrong was stripped of all results from 1998 on in 2011, so 13 years later for the earliest results.

Did they redistribute medals or did they just remove his results? That document didn't say.

 

[skatingguy]

We're all speculating at this point. I don't know if the rules in Beijing technically resulted in someone being labeled as "disqualified" if they tested positive for COVID. They might have disqualified people with COVID in order to prevent someone from insisting on taking part in an event even if they had COVID and were infectious. If they technically were "disqualified," then I can see why the ISU would not want the language of Rule 353 to apply to them. But, if that were the case, the ISU should have just made an exception to Rule 353, not completely removed its applicability to the team event.

Actually we do - Vincent Zhou - he's listed as withdrawn from the Men's event.

https://results.isu.org/results/season2122/owg2022/CAT001RS.htm

 

[Vagabond]

Did they redistribute medals or did they just remove his results? That document didn't say.

They removed his results. Shades of the Ladies event at 1994 U.S. Nationals.

 

[skatingguy]

Did they redistribute medals or did they just remove his results? That document didn't say.

The Tour de France titles are vacant, as is the 2000 Olympic Bronze medal in the Men's Time Trial.

 

[ballettmaus]

They removed his results. Shades of the Ladies event at 1994 U.S. Nationals.

The Tour de France titles are vacant, as is the 2000 Olympic Bronze medal in the Men's Time Trial.

But isn't that due to the other doping cases as well? Too lazy to google but didn't Jan Ulrich, who finished second to Armstrong several times, confess to doping? Weren't there also allegations of systemic doping at the Tour de France? I think that makes those situations incomparable.

 

[MacMadame]

But isn't that due to the other doping cases as well? Too lazy to google but didn't Jan Ulrich, who finished second to Armstrong several times, confess to doping? Weren't there also allegations of systemic doping at the Tour de France? I think that makes those situations incomparable.

My point was more that you don't have to redistribute anything if doing so would be a total mess and past some expiration date.

 

[On My Own]

I know it's time to move on but I was sleeping, so:

You (and others on this forum) also hate on Hanyu as a skater

No, no I don't. You can see my posts praising him as a skater.

and as a person so many times and you still do years after he retired as a competitior.

Yes, can't deny this. Much like someone can praise a skater for their skating years after they retired as a competitor.

Thanks for proving my point though, that you can't separate mocking fans from mocking a person, or differentiate between the skater and the person. I did mock him as a person on the divorce thread if you want to go read.

(promise not to engage after this)

 

[skatingguy]

But isn't that due to the other doping cases as well? Too lazy to google but didn't Jan Ulrich, who finished second to Armstrong several times, confess to doping? Weren't there also allegations of systemic doping at the Tour de France? I think that makes those situations incomparable.

Yes, the doping in cycling was so pervasive during that period that any athlete they chose to redistribute the titles to would probably been guilty of doping as well.

 

[Judy]

Meagan Duhamel posted this https://twitter.com/mhjd_85/status/1752506179916357946

My niece works for Own the Podium .. on maternity leave now for a year .. she loves working there.

That’s a ton of funding to lose ..

 

[lexeoe]

Did they redistribute medals or did they just remove his results? That document didn't say.

the TdF results weren't redistributed. Similar to Tonya's removal for the 1994 US Nats.

 

[overedge]

FWIW Another skating federation that read conflicting documents in selective ways http://crdsc-sdrcc.ca/resource_centre/pdf/English/1053_SDRCC 23-0633.pdf