Bigbird

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,038
That list is really something. There are several painkillers and anti-virals. One of the medications is banned in the US and EU because of its impact on the liver; while another of the meds is used to treat liver ailments. Just stunning.
Discussing this at length gets us nowhere. The issue is were all these drugs declared before hand and did she get official permission to consume them. This is a cultural issue with respect to Russian sports. Athletes are driven to do everything for the result. I don't know when or if this impasse can be resolved.
 

honey

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,293
Cough drops are made of sugars and maybe some essential oils like menthol. You'd have to be pretty paranoid not to use them.

I am an amateur athlete who is subject to drug testing by USADA so I am quite familiar with the code and what is and is not allowed and the cough drops you get at the drug store are fine.


It would be if they were taken all at once. This is not a list of what she gets every day. It's what she got over several years so we have no idea if she was one of those athletes who pops analgesics and NSAIDs like they are candy or if she only uses them when she's injured.

This is true of all the stuff on this list. There is a lot of repetition there. For example, there are 3 listings for Amino Vital because there are slightly different formulas just like there are for Gatorade which is what it is equivalent too. There are multiple entries for calcium and magnesium too. That just means that they changed brands over time not that she takes 3 different kinds every day.
I’m not discounting your experience. But just anecdotally, cough drops actually are a thing I’ve heard figure skaters mention frequently as something they would never dare ingest because of the fear of what might be in them. And this is not a new comment. Elizabeth Manley wrote about this in her book after Calgary. Halls was a sponsor and gave out free cough drops (not sure what the competition was off hand). The higher ups freaked out and went around to everyone’s room taking them back. Liz was like, as if any of us would have even thought to take one? It was so ingrained in them that those kinds of things were off limits.

She’s not the only one I’ve heard say this. And going back to Vincent, yeah I do believe him when he said he never took anything like that while training. I think in the USA and Canada anyway, athletes are extremely paranoid about taking anything and therefore, they most often don’t.

Looking at Valieva’s list, would agree most of it is largely not a huge red flag. Just a wildly different operating system than other countries in figure skating.

Duhamel did a TSL interview sometime ago where she said at competitions she saw skaters from other countries reporting pages and pages of supplements and medications on their drug testing forms, while for her the only thing she was taking was an iron supplement or something like that. She was blown away by what some others were taking. Obviously these were not banned drugs, but she was just amazed at how many things they were being given. Similar to this Valieva list? Would be curious to know which countries Duhamel was referring to and if those pages of medications were similar to what was on Valieva’s list.
 

Evgeniafan

Well-Known Member
Messages
395
I’m not discounting your experience. But just anecdotally, cough drops actually are a thing I’ve heard figure skaters mention frequently as something they would never dare ingest because of the fear of what might be in them. And this is not a new comment. Elizabeth Manley wrote about this in her book after Calgary. Halls was a sponsor and gave out free cough drops (not sure what the competition was off hand). The higher ups freaked out and went around to everyone’s room taking them back. Liz was like, as if any of us would have even thought to take one? It was so ingrained in them that those kinds of things were off limits.

She’s not the only one I’ve heard say this. And going back to Vincent, yeah I do believe him when he said he never took anything like that while training. I think in the USA and Canada anyway, athletes are extremely paranoid about taking anything and therefore, they most often don’t.

Looking at Valieva’s list, would agree most of it is largely not a huge red flag. Just a wildly different operating system than other countries in figure skating.

Duhamel did a TSL interview sometime ago where she said at competitions she saw skaters from other countries reporting pages and pages of supplements and medications on their drug testing forms, while for her the only thing she was taking was an iron supplement or something like that. She was blown away by what some others were taking. Obviously these were not banned drugs, but she was just amazed at how many things they were being given. Similar to this Valieva list? Would be curious to know which countries Duhamel was referring to and if those pages of medications were similar to what was on Valieva’s list.
Long before the Kamila situation, Evgenia stated she was afraid to take any medication and she would only take a sip from the water bottle if she opened it. So I think every skater has their own feelings towards over the counter medication.
For coughs is marshmallow root tea allowed, that is my go to.
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
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59,096
She’s not the only one I’ve heard say this. And going back to Vincent, yeah I do believe him when he said he never took anything like that while training. I think in the USA and Canada anyway, athletes are extremely paranoid about taking anything and therefore, they most often don’t.
I think that is true about those supplement powders that are more common with endurance athletes and bodybuilders. There are too many cases of a track athlete getting in trouble because of an unlisted ingredient that the professionals are very paranoid about now.

Looking at Valieva’s list, would agree most of it is largely not a huge red flag. Just a wildly different operating system than other countries in figure skating.
It varies by sport too. My fellow endurance athletes here in CA definitely take l-carnitine and creatine and some of them take those supplement powders that are sold at GNC and places like that. AG1 is currently very popular too. (And prior supplements like that.) I'm more cautious than that (I don't trust GNC, for starters, but I do have sources I trust).

But I definitely use cough drops. ;)
 

Sylvia

TBD
Messages
81,152
Relevant excerpt from Phil Hersh’s Chock/Bates pre-Worlds article today:

They have won an Olympic team event medal, now a gold from the 2022 Winter Games as a result of the doping disqualification of Russia’s Kamila Valieva - although when they will receive it still remains anyone’s guess given the latest appeals in a case that already has dragged on for more than two years. […]

Question: Is winning an ice dance event medal enough of an incentive for you to keep going two more years?

Chock: In some ways, definitely yes. It’s always been a goal and a dream of ours, and I think it would be really special to have that individual medal. But I’m also just awaiting this special feeling of receiving the Olympic medal we’ve already earned.

Q. You have talked consistently since 2022 about taking one season at a time, but I still get the feeling that you are almost certainly going to Italy. Is that fair?

Chock: I would think it just makes sense. It’s not that far away at this point. But we’re getting married this summer (June in Hawaii), so who knows what kind of feelings or emotions that will bring, and maybe we’ll feel closure.

Bates: We would have an Olympic gold medal, too.

Chock: Maybe.

Bates: The whole (medal presentation delay) experience has just been really surreal. So many people have moved on from skating from that team. So, it’s time that we get some closure. Everyone has the right to appeal and seek their full due process. We’re really looking forward to the day we get our medals.

Q. While we’re loosely on that subject, do you feel sadness or sympathy for Kamila, who was only 15 when this all happened?

Chock: Absolutely. I think we have a ton of empathy for her. If I just put myself back in my shoes as a skater at that age, it’s really hard to, I think, grapple with the grand scale of everything at the Olympics. It’s hard to see her go through this, and I just hope she has the support she needs for her mental health, because I know that it’s probably been pretty challenging for her.
 

Sylvia

TBD
Messages
81,152
ISU held their annual press conference at Worlds today (3 4 posts by Hersh): https://twitter.com/olyphil/status/1771192895241900245
3 / Both Russia, which the ISU has dropped from gold to bronze in the event, and Canada, which thinks it should get bronze, have appealed the reordering.

ETA:

4/ One thing Kim sort of addressed, was evidence that Valieva, who tested positive for the banned drug trimetazidine, was taking 55 other legal meds on advice of her doctors. "Yes, we were surprised Valieva was found to have taken 56 substances at age 15." He didn't elaborate.
 
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Lara

Bonjour/Hi to everyone at Worlds!
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19,415
No boos in the arena but mostly muted/perfunctory applause when the President’s been introduced.

I was on Skatebug feed last night and Ted Barton basically alluded to “not agreeing” with all their decisions but followed up saying they were trying to do what was best for the skaters.
 

Sylvia

TBD
Messages
81,152
Reported by Anything GOEs on Twitter/X:

ISU President Jae Youl Kim opened up his press conference today with the Kamila Valieva case. "The one message I want to iterate is the whole case is very unfortunate." He emphasises Clean Sport & the Pure as Ice campaign that educates skaters, as well as protecting minors.

They've invited the vice president of WADA to speak at ISU Congress [June 10-14 in Las Vegas]. He also added he's surprised by the amount of supplements that were found in Valieva's system. Kim says as there's ongoing CAS proceedings he can't get into the 'math' of the re-allocated Team Event podium.
 

coppertop1

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,970
No boos in the arena but mostly muted/perfunctory applause when the President’s been introduced.

I was on Skatebug feed last night and Ted Barton basically alluded to “not agreeing” with all their decisions but followed up saying they were trying to do what was best for the skaters.
Best for Russia. Fixed it for him. Ted Barton is such a Russian apologist and it's not a good look at all, especially now
 

tony

Throwing the (rule)book at them
Messages
17,785
Best for Russia. Fixed it for him. Ted Barton is such a Russian apologist and it's not a good look at all, especially now
That's not really true. He's backed way off of Russia but too many emotional people want an immediate resolution when there are obvious court holdups, yet they keep on with their own mindsets that things can be done ASAP.
 

Willin

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,622
ISU held their annual press conference at Worlds today (3 4 posts by Hersh): https://twitter.com/olyphil/status/1771192895241900245
3 / Both Russia, which the ISU has dropped from gold to bronze in the event, and Canada, which thinks it should get bronze, have appealed the reordering.

ETA:

4/ One thing Kim sort of addressed, was evidence that Valieva, who tested positive for the banned drug trimetazidine, was taking 55 other legal meds on advice of her doctors. "Yes, we were surprised Valieva was found to have taken 56 substances at age 15." He didn't elaborate.

They're both way overreacting here. Look, I get they want a scoop, but I'd bet he genuinely can't talk about how that was calculated at this point. The ISU's lawyers would be freaking out (and rightly so) if he did say more because of how it could affect the case. They're really just expecting him to go out there and run his mouth because they want a headline? Or they're turning this into more than it is to get more headlines and outrage?

Look, I'm outraged by the situation of how the medals were awarded. But I'm also not about to be outraged that someone isn't stupid enough to comment on an ongoing legal battle.
 

Sylvia

TBD
Messages
81,152
Copying out the 3-tweet summary of the Finnish article that's linked in this X post: https://twitter.com/Ritti9/status/1772040244604338668

Sergei Iljukov, who used to be a member of the RUSADA Supervisory Board, reveals in an exclusive interview with YLE what he saw behind closed doors during the Kamila Valieva CAS trial where he was one of the 5 specialists invited by WADA. (1/3)

Iljukov says the Russians spoke about Valieva's medication "as a completely normal thing". In Russia, elite athletes get so called "supportive parmacological care" from FMBA, the institution that arranges the occupational health care for soldiers and closed cities. (2/3)

The two Russian specialists in the CAS hearing insisted that they are "protecting athletes' health with the substances", whereas "our views in the west are more strict". Iljukov also comments that in this case the liability of Valieva's support team ought to be scrutinized. (3/3)
 

Sylvia

TBD
Messages
81,152
April 12th Reuters article by Lori Ewing (formerly of The Canadian Press, currently based in Manchester, England) - Valieva's cocktail of medicines raises concerns around supplement dangers:
Excerpts:
The revelation that banned teenage Russian figure skater Kamila Valieva had been plied with 56 medications and dietary aids has shone a light on the murky world of legal supplements, where a contaminated powder or poorly-worded label could spell disaster for an elite athlete.
Canada's double world figure skating champion Meagan Duhamel never trusted antibiotics during her competitive career and was even hyper-wary of vitamins and minerals for fear of triggering a positive doping result.
"I didn't take antibiotics once in my elite career and I questioned any vitamins," she told Reuters.
"No athlete is taking over 50 supplements as a teenager on their own or without ill intent. The athletes I know questioned everything and took maybe Advil (ibuprofen) and a few vitamins and that's it."
Sport nutritionist Stefano Montanari has warned parents and coaches looking for a competitive edge that there are potential dangers in feeding nutritional supplements to children.
"Even without looking at the list, in such a young athlete, (56) is a lot," said Montanari, a lecturer at Manchester Metropolitan University who works with elite athletes of all ages.
"When I have a call with parents, they ask me about supplements. It's usually their first or second question. I always back-pedal and say, 'Before looking into any supplements, let's look at their diet'."
Rachel Hannah, a five-times Canadian champion distance runner and registered dietician, said sport supplements are a multi-billion dollar industry with marketing promises that entice athletes around enhanced energy, recovery, weight loss, performance and more.
"Athletes are always looking at ways to improve performance and recovery so turn to supplements with this exact goal in mind," she said.
"(Elite athletes) should absolutely make sure supplements are third-party tested to make sure what is listed on the label is in fact in the product. This also ensures safety when it comes to banned substances."
... WADA said that since 2012, 1,416 under-18s across all sports had returned positive doping tests.
They found the athlete often bore the full brunt of the positive test, reporting abandonment and blame from coaches and team mates.
One athlete said in the report said: "I remember no one, not a team mate, a coach, or another parent, offered any help or sympathy after I tested positive... everyone blamed me, and I blamed myself. I was trying to do my best and I still let everyone down."
Link to read WADA's January, 24, 2024, 29-page report "Operation Refuge, An Examination of Doping Among Minors" (cited at the end of the article/final excerpt above): https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/2024-01/wada_public_report_-_operation_refuge_24jan.pdf
 

Allskate

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12,827
I can't say I have a whole lot of confidence in WADA and it's efforts to put an end to state-run doping. Not only did they not punish or even disclose the Chinese swimmers' positive tests for TMZ, but they are threatening to sue USADA/Tygart for comments about it. It looks like they didn't even investigate in some cases. Apparently, instead of playing the grandpa dessert card, Valieva should have claimed that the TMZ mysteriously resulted from hotel vents, spice containers, and sink drains.


A potentially explosive doping scandal rocked Olympic swimming Saturday after revelations that 23 Chinese swimmers, including gold medalists and world record-setters, tested positive for a banned substance in 2021 and were never punished.

The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), after three years of silence, acknowledged the positive tests, but sided with China’s anti-doping body, which claimed that all 23 swimmers unknowingly ingested small amounts of the substance and were therefore innocent. [/unquote]
 

Sylvia

TBD
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81,152
I can't say I have a whole lot of confidence in WADA and it's efforts to put an end to state-run doping. Not only did they not punish or even disclose the Chinese swimmers' positive tests for TMZ, but they are threatening to sue USADA/Tygart for comments about it. It looks like they didn't even investigate in some cases. Apparently, instead of playing the grandpa dessert card, Valieva should have claimed that the TMZ mysteriously resulted from hotel vents, spice containers, and sink drains.
I started a thread today in Other Sports here:
 

Allskate

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,827
I started a thread today in Other Sports here:
I think this is relevant to figure skating and Valieva. I don't for one minute think that Valieva's was an isolated incident or that it wasn't part of a much larger effort by the Russians.

And I think it's interesting that the same drug is involved. You know, because TMZ is coincidentally finding its way into some pretty odd places where top athletes are "accidentally" swallowing (or inhaling? :lol:) it. Valieva's glass and dessert, Chinese sink drains, vents, and spice containers. And it just happens to be in countries with histories of state sponsored doping and cheating. Where's it going to show up next and how are the athletes going to "accidentally" ingest it?

More than ever, I want that Olympic bronze medal to go to the Canadians and for the Russians to get no medal. There needs to be better deterrence.
 
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Lynn226

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,778
I think this is relevant to figure skating and Valieva. I don't for one minute think that Valieva's was an isolated incident or that it wasn't part of a much larger effort by the Russians.

And I think it's interesting that the same drug is involved. You know, because TMZ is coincidentally finding its way into some pretty odd places where top athletes are "accidentally" swallowing (or inhaling? :lol:) it. Valieva's glass and dessert, Chinese sink drains, vents, and spice containers. And it just happens to be in countries with histories of state sponsored doping and cheating. Where's it going to show up next and how are the athletes going to "accidentally" ingest it?

More than ever, I want that Olympic bronze medal to go to the Canadians and for the Russians to get no medal. There needs to be better deterrence.
I didn't inhale. 😆

 

overedge

Mayor of Carrot City
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36,014
And I think it's interesting that the same drug is involved. You know, because TMZ is coincidentally finding its way into some pretty odd places where top athletes are "accidentally" swallowing (or inhaling? :lol:) it. Valieva's glass and dessert, Chinese sink drains, vents, and spice containers. And it just happens to be in countries with histories of state sponsored doping and cheating. Where's it going to show up next and how are the athletes going to "accidentally" ingest it?

More than ever, I want that Olympic bronze medal to go to the Canadians and for the Russians to get no medal. There needs to be better deterrence.

I couldn't believe it when I was reading the news story about the Chinese swimmers. Valieva's Grandpa and/or dessert excuses were ridiculous enough, but that was just one skater (at least, only one skater that got caught). Now this is more than 20 athletes who somehow all managed to ingest the same amounts of the same drug, and they're claiming the drug was all over the hotel kitchen and got in their food. Yarite.
 

Sylvia

TBD
Messages
81,152
I think this is relevant to figure skating and Valieva.
So do I. There are 2 gifted New York Times article links in the thread I started for those who would like to read the jaw-dropping details of and findings from the investigations by NYT and ARD in Germany re. the 23 Chinese swimmers.

Relevant excerpt from the main NYT article (co-authored by Tariq Panja who covered the Valieva story in Beijing):
WADA’s handling of the positives involving the Chinese swimmers stood in stark contrast to how it acted less than a year later when faced with a strikingly similar episode involving a Russian figure skater who tested positive for the same banned heart drug, trimetazidine, just before the 2022 Beijing Winter Olympic Games. That skater, Kamila Valieva, blamed contaminated food and tested for relatively low levels of the substance.
In that case, WADA swiftly and successfully appealed the Russian antidoping agency’s decision to clear her, and the top court in sports eventually barred her from international competition for four years.
The Valieva case came after WADA was accused of ignoring clues to Russia’s systematic doping for years. Since that scandal, some antidoping authorities have agitated for reform at the agency, hoping to ensure that the world’s doping watchdog would never again defer to a nation to investigate itself. Now it appears to be facing similar questions.

ETA another relevant excerpt from the 2nd NYT article (4th of 6 takeaways):
The 61-page report that Chinese officials prepared to clear the 23 swimmers includes a claim that the low concentrations of TMZ found in all of the athletes’ samples was proof that they were not taking the substance to boost performances.
But experts consulted by The New York Times said that making such a blanket statement was incorrect, and that even if such low amounts would not be beneficial to a swimmer’s performance in the moment, they could just as easily suggest that the test was performed at the tail end of the excretion period for a larger dose of the drug.
WADA said the low concentrations, coupled with variances in testing results, factored into its decision not to act.
And the 6th takeaway:
At the time of the positive tests, the Chinese swimmers were fine-tuning their training as they geared up for the qualification meet for the Tokyo Olympics, which had been delayed a year because of the pandemic.
For the International Olympic Committee, a doping scandal involving the Chinese, a major force in world sport, would have been difficult to navigate at any time. But in the middle of 2021, only months before the opening of the Summer Games, it would have been a disaster. At the same time, China, battered by coronavirus and subject to some of the harshest lockdowns in the world, was continuing to push forward with plans to host the 2022 Winter Olympics in Beijing.
 
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Andrea82

Well-Known Member
Messages
863
Eric Radford is getting screwed by out of a medal by his employers. Awkward

Radford has provisionally stepped down from the ISU Council

From ISU: "Athletes Commission Chair Eric Radford, who is the Athletes Commission member of the Council, has temporarily stepped down as a Council member for the period during which the appeal against the ISU in which he is named as an appellant is pending at CAS. During this time, the Vice Chair of the Athletes Commission, Douwe de Vries, will attend Council meetings in Eric Radford’s place in order to continue the representation of the Athletes’ voices in the discussions and decision-making processes of the Council."
 

Sylvia

TBD
Messages
81,152
Radford has provisionally stepped down from the ISU Council

From ISU:
From ISU Communication No. 2634 Decisions of the Council (May 13, 2024) - link is posted in the ISU Provisonal Allotments thread.

Feb. 26, 2024: https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/u...ease_ISU_appeals__10354_1355_10356_10360_.pdf

CAS 2024/A/10354 Madeline Schizas, Piper Gilles, Paul Poirier, Kirsten Moore-Towers, Michael
Marinaro, Eric Radford, Vanessa James and Roman Sadovsky, and, Skate Canada, and Canadian
Olympic Committee (COC) v. International Skating Union (ISU), and, International Olympic Committee
(IOC), and Russian Olympic Committee (ROC), and Figure Skating Federation of Russia, and, Aleksandr
Galliamov, Victoria Sinitsina, Anastasia Mishina, Nikita Katsalapov, Kamila Valieva and Mark
Kondratiuk
 

Jammers

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,586
I'm sorry but the USA and Japan need to get their medals and ceremony in Paris let Canada and Russia fight it out for the Bronze and have their ceremony separately if necessary the USA and Japan have been waiting for too damn long because of this nonsense.
 
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MacMadame

Doing all the things
Messages
59,096
I think it will be at the next Winter Olympics. And that in many ways, this would be better as many of their friends and family will be there to see them compete.
 

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