USA Today: NBC commentators Tara Lipinski, Johnny Weir participate in vulgar video spoof of U.S. Olympian

Aerobicidal said:
Who is Bradley? I know that the woman who started this thread, the seasoned Miss Brenda Bottems, had a torrid fling with a Greek multimillionaire shipping magnate named Bradley Papaposolou, but I don't believe Mr. Weir or Ms. Lipinski would be familiar with him.
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chill the F out. My phone auto corrected her name. ???
 
Tony Wheeler said:

Interesting letter from Loosemore and Kestnbaum who were two huge leaders of the early skating presence on the internet in the 90s.
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Thanks for sharing this letter Tony! The contents of the book that made Brennan an 'infamous' personality in the skating world have long since passed into the mists of my memory, albeit I might still have a dusty old copy hanging around with some books I recently retrieved from storage. LOL

Loosemore and Kestnbaum very accurately and succinctly sum up Brennan's overall fs shtick. The below highlights from their letter stick out like a painful but enlightening sore thumb. What goes around comes around:

"It is apparent to us that, far from being the expert that she has claimed to be in her numerous interviews and television appearances, Brennan is not particularly knowledgeable about figure skating. Specifically, Brennan has repeatedly made comments about the incomprehensible nature of judging in figure skating. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that the judging truly is completely irrational just because Brennan doesn't understand it herself. Rather, it is evident that she simply does not have as much technical knowledge about skating as the judges, and apparently is not making much effort to learn."
:rofl:

That bolded part is so true. To be honest though, it's not easy to understand the judging system, nor to acquire the eye to accurately analyze skaters' performances. Still, if you are going to report on the sport, you have to put in more effort than the shallow, superficial, trivia-related, gossipy, tendency to overhype, and eagerness for scandal-mongering fs reporting that Brennan has exhibited for a long time.

"One problem that is evident in her book is that she does not adequately identify or attribute the sources of her information. She 'gets into' people's heads throughout the book, as though she's the omniscient narrator of a novel or popular biography, so there's rarely any way of knowing whether the thoughts she attributes to skaters, coaches, etc. were revealed in press conferences or interviews, or were the products of Brennan's imagination. For example, how did she know what was going on in Todd Eldredge's mind during his long program in Birmingham?"

Yeah, too much soap operatic journalism, overstating, and sensationalizing. There's actually enough drama and substance that exists in the sport which cries out to be treated more thoughtfully and responsibly. There's no need to overhype and create overstated scenarios. When you don't have a basic understanding of the sport and its history, this type of overhype and exaggerated filler for dramatic effect is the result. Even when Brennan reports on serious scandals of far-ranging import, I personally don't think she approaches the matters with any sensitivity, thoughtfulness or willingness to go the extra investigative mile for any ethical purpose of spearheading real change within the sport. For Brennan IMHO, it appears to be mostly about scooping something titillating to make a name for herself. It's self-interest and 'orgasmic pride,' not helped by her exaggerated language and the superficiality of her approach, which masquerades as serious, informed journalism.

"Brennan also has a tendency to state opinion as fact and to simply overlook facts in order to make a point... Another problem with Brennan's reporting has been that her efforts to appear as a serious investigative journalist and at the same time write breezy, quick-read copy lend her book a sensationalist tabloid tone that presents non-issues as if they were shockers and fails to deliver a reasoned analysis of the implications of genuine issues within the skating community. Her statements in her TV and radio interviews have been even more shallow. In particular, Brennan has been treating the issue of homosexuality in the skating world as if it were a shocking secret, when it is nothing of the kind."

Whew! That absolutely says it all. It was true then and it's even truer now, after all these years.

The below summation to the letter still holds true, exclamation point, period!

"We hope that, instead of glorifying Christine Brennan as a poor persecuted journalist and accepting her unquestioningly as a self-proclaimed expert on figure skating, the mainstream media will take a more critical look at her credibility and reporting in the future. We also hope that both the USFSA and the press will make more of an effort to inform the public about how to appreciate skating and will rely less on the kind of personality-driven coverage that makes competitive skating a mystery that requires so-called experts to interpret for the masses."

Talking to you @NBC, and Christine Brennan, et al. At least in his retirement, Phil Hersh has been making an effort to do a better reporting job. He largely used to suck too with his overdone emphasis on hype, superficial coverage, and tearing down skaters when they faltered.

Thanks so much to @Tony Wheeler for unearthing this scintillating and informative gem. And kudos to Ellyn Kestnbaum and to Sandra Loosemore for telling it like it is and staying on point! Their many beneficial contributions to the sport of figure skating should not go unrecognized or understated.

Culture on Ice: Figure Skating &... book by Ellyn Kestnbaum

www.thriftbooks.com

 
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essence_of_soy said:
Every time she breaks a story, Ms Brennan has a certain look of orgasmic pride. Whether it is merited or not, Brennan certainly loves sticking her snout into the scandal trough, that's for sure.
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Right? Whether she's talking about sexual abuse or skating's tragic secret of gay men with HIV, she always comes across as almost giddy with a "I know more gossip than you" smirk. Can't stand her.
 
I don't disagree with the criticism of Brennan's first book on figure skating. She was and is an all-sports journalist, not a skating specialist. I don't get the continual bashing of her for reporting true news.

The real question is:

If this story about Johnny and Tara is true, 1) it's a borderline crap thing to do 2) they could lose their commentary jobs or not get their contract renewed.
 
I think Christine Brennan is and always has been a net positive (even though I frequently disagree with her - as I do in this article). She is genuinely interested in skating and has covered it like an international sport v. a country club pastime. She talked about taboo topics, many of which were ahead of their time -- e.g., reputation judging and skaters being forced into the closet (do you remember Mark Mitchell going on TV in 1992/1993 and talking about the "real nice girl" he was dating?).

Sandra and Ellyn are great, but I think Brennan's book has aged better than their critique of it. We've had a complete scoring system overhaul for more transparency, forced by multiple judging scandals that reinforce what Brennan said. And for all of the contributions of gay skaters, it took another 10? 15? years for gay skaters to actually be comfortable coming out. Brennan was right that the only openly gay skaters were the ones who died of AIDS and were outed or presumed to be gay posthumously, in large part due to USFS and other federations taking homophobic stances.
 
viennese said:
I don't disagree with the criticism of Brennan's first book on figure skating. She was and is an all-sports journalist, not a skating specialist. I don't get the continual bashing of her for reporting true news.

The real question is:

If this story about Johnny and Tara is true, 1) it's a borderline crap thing to do 2) they could lose their commentary jobs or not get their contract renewed.
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Eh, a lot of people are completely missing the point. Stop with all the concern trolling, know-it-all, holier-than-thou finger-pointing. Part of the point, in my estimation, is that we all need to take good, long looks in the mirror.

What you have offered above, IMO is not the 'real' question at all. Take a look at what the spoof is about for yourself, instead of prefacing your comments with, 'if this story is true.' Some people have taken the time to read the ill-advised transcript. I'm not sure where it's available. I'll try to take a gander if I can locate it. Meanwhile, I'm not expecting to find much beyond what others who have read it have discovered and subsequently given their opinion on. NBC has already apologized to a degree. It's old news by this point. I doubt Bradie Tennell has given such noise a second thought, much less a first glance. Some people have better things to do with their time.

Apparently, you failed to notice the supposition that it's quite possible T&J were asked to do this spoof by their employers. They may not be fully responsible for the content, albeit they should have thought twice about the negative and unfair implications and declined or offered responsible modifications.


Furthermore, everyone should read the Kestnbaum/ Loosemore letter of old, which is even more relevant today. Brennan is not being bashed in that letter for 'reporting true news.' IMO, Brennan's entire approach to reporting still involves 'breezy, quick-read copy' that lacks full investigation and 'reasoned analysis,' of serious issues within the sport that quite honestly have needed reform for a very long time. Hello @U.S. figure skating!

Brennan strikes me as overly self-interested and her journalistic approach smacks of titillation and a 'gotcha' mentality rather than any earnest desire to right wrongs for the overall elevation of the sport, much less for the benefit of untold victims of abuse. Regarding recent revelations of serious concern, there's so much blame to go around, not the least belonging to the ISU and culpable federations. Instead of finger-pointing, policing, concern trolling and eating popcorn on the sidelines, check your own corner of the universe.

We all live in the same rotten world that's in need of reforming on so many levels. We have all grown up in a global culture that has faulty norms in need of rethinking and redefining. Those of us who love and enjoy figure skating should be taking this time to assess our relationship with the sport and our views and emotions surrounding it, as well as our participation in it, surrounding many more issues than one. Certainly on one hand, we should feel grateful and blessed about the good things the sport has given and continues to give. It is a sport to be celebrated and respected, but like many institutions, there's a real need for thoughtful examination and beneficial change. And that challenge presents even more of a mountain to climb than it did in the 1990s, when the opportunities for reform in a number of areas were ripe, prevalent, necessary, and yet largely ignored.

For real, this is about much more than Christine Brennan's latest beef, re T&J's lame spoof. The sport is bigger than all of us (including the self-righteous finger-pointing police). The problems are deeper and more difficult to remedy than any breezy, 'gotcha' superficial coverage can, in all its knee-jerk pretentiousness, ever solve or transmute.
 
Louis said:
She is genuinely interested in skating and has covered it like an international sport v. a country club pastime. She talked about taboo topics, many of which were ahead of their time -- e.g., reputation judging and skaters being forced into the closet...
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Brennan does seem to enjoy the trivia, hype and on-the-surface entertainment aspects of the sport. For the most part, I suspect Brennan's motivations. I don't question that she's a well-trained journalist, but I take issue with her superficial and self-interested approach to covering figure skating, as well as some other sports. I understand the pressures involved in working on deadline, but when Brennan provides commentary or writes about fs subjects that require thoughtful and thorough investigation, IMO she has been mostly lacking in informed judgment and trustworthy authority. She possesses too much of a thrill-seeking, 'quick-copy,' yellow journalism bent to her coverage.

Sigh. You and Brennan may think she's covering fs as an 'international sport,' but she isn't doing so responsibly or knowledgeably. Brennan referencing 'reputation judging' was NOT anything groundbreaking or unknown at the time she mentioned it. Plus, Brennan simply did not speak about any 'forcing into the closet' aspects of the sport with any degree of thoughtfulness, full investigation, or beneficial sensitivity. Read the Kestnbaum/ Loosemore letter.
 
I don’t know if Brennan’s book aged better than their letter. If anything, the IJS reinforces everything Loosemore and Kestnbaum argued skating judging valued. The change was because the 6.0 system didn’t educate the public enough about what was being scored and plus a TES system was more objective. However, PCS is everything the letter said skating judging is about.

I will say they were out of touch with the whole gay culture in skating thing. They seemed to think one Rudy Galindo win meant LGBTQ folks felt safe in skating culture and that the powers that be were welcoming of lgbtq folks. Any old post from Morry Stillwell on FSU shows that’s not the case and we know many people in charge are regressive and out-of-touch.
 
Louis said:
Sandra and Ellyn are great, but I think Brennan's book has aged better than their critique of it. We've had a complete scoring system overhaul for more transparency, forced by multiple judging scandals that reinforce what Brennan said. And for all of the contributions of gay skaters, it took another 10? 15? years for gay skaters to actually be comfortable coming out. Brennan was right that the only openly gay skaters were the ones who died of AIDS and were outed or presumed to be gay posthumously, in large part due to USFS and other federations taking homophobic stances.
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I disagree with you. I think the critiques in the Kestnbaum/ Loosemore letter completely stand up, while Brennan's book with the passage of time reads even more as the cheap, rushed, over-eager hype and superficial, pretentious hack job that it has always been.

The IJS/COP initial scoring system re-haul has nothing to do with Brennan's book, and everything to do with the ISU's failure of leadership and the 2002 Olympic pairs fs judging scandal. The scandals in fs judging have been going on since the beginning of the sport's evolution. Bone up on your fs history. Whatever Brennan had to say about 'gays in figure skating' was not news, nor was it completely accurate or enlightening at the time. Our entire culture has been homophobic for longer than any of us have been alive. :drama: The larger culture has always impacted the smaller cultures within every sport.

You sound like Brennan with the oversimplification of your comments regarding gay skaters only recently being 'comfortable coming out.' Whole bookcases can be filled with personal stories and social/cultural histories regarding sports, homophobia and gender issues. Generalizations in any regard to any of these cultural issues simply aren't helpful. Trying to embiggen Brennan in any connection with these issues is laughable.
 
I think Brennan does a fine job of pulling out some really good stories, but she has her moments just as everyone else does. She's definitely not the flip-floppy Dave Lease type (who was trying to go after Nick McCarvel most recently), but she also doesn't seem to always have best intentions in mind. I mean, which journalist actually does? Even Phil Hersh for a while was having meltdowns over US skaters' poor results and even a bronze medal in an international was a 'who cares' headline.
 
Christine Brennan linking systemic sexual abuse in figure skating to a bitchy (not to mention poorly done) sketch done by a gay guy and a straight woman is an embarrassing reach.

That being said, it sounds entirely unfunny. Laughing at figure skating with the intent to poke fun at its quirks and eccentricities is totally different than stooping to the demeaning and misogynistic/homophobic jokes that have followed it around for decades (see this MadTV sketch that aired in 2002).
 
I think Kestynbaum/Loosemore's references to the judging of Rudy Galindo's 1996 U.S. Nationals sp, are fair and clear-eyed for the most part. It's definitely true that Rudy lacked the same degree of speed and power as some other male skaters. However, I also believe the judges (who are human) were viewing Rudy with preconceived expectations, and thus they didn't reward Rudy as well as they could have for the quality of his sp performance and for the superior aspects of his talent that he beautifully demonstrated at that event. When Rudy continued to deliver in his fp performance, the judges no longer held back on rewarding him more fully.

There are political aspects and subjectivity, as well as conflicts of interest endemic in figure skating judging. Thus, many extenuating factors continue to be involved in fs judging. Still, the thrust of Kestnbaum's and Loosemore's critiques regarding Brennan's lack of knowledge of the technical aspects of fs judging and the fundamentals of the sport are accurate and relevant.

Rudy worked extremely hard to be in the best shape of his life, and he delivered in tremendous, redemptive fashion. The angels were with him in his San Jose hometown arena. But he'd worked his butt off and he was prepared! His top rival, Todd Eldredge, was as awed and inspired as everyone else in the arena, who possessed a caring heart and non-discriminatory vision. Instead of sulking and moping, Todd Eldredge was gracious in defeat. Moreover, Todd used Rudy's victorious example as fuel for further motivation to slam dunk the men's field at '96 Worlds a couple of months later.

Rudy went on to win bronze at '96 Worlds. He subsequently propelled himself into a successful, worthy and entertaining pro career during the height of the professional skating boom. It was an exciting pro skating boom that eventually and sadly, for everyone in the sport, waned.
 
Tony Wheeler said:
She's definitely not the flip-floppy Dave Lease type (who was trying to go after Nick McCarvel most recently), but she also doesn't seem to always have best intentions in mind. I mean, which journalist actually does?
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ITA for the most part with your comments. A lot of reporters under the pressure of deadlines tend to take the easy way out with trite phrases, superficial coverage, overhype and/or unfair putdowns of athletes. But when providing general commentary and investigative reports, they should try to be more thorough in their research and thoughtful in their reflections. Phil Hersh in his retirement has definitely been trying, and he has improved to a degree, despite a continuing tendency for utilizing over-hyped phrasing.

As far as journalists in general, there are many with good intentions and integrity. There are even a rare few with self-sacrificing, long view, indefatigable doggedness in their efforts to get the story right for ethical reasons, rather than for self-interested, short term gain and 'scoop' recognition. Obviously no one is perfect, and we all have human failings. The best reporters usually have a tendency to keep their own human imperfections in mind, if their heads don't grow too big from recognition and success.

Christine Brennan surely thinks she does what she does for the right reasons, but her overall approach to figure skating coverage for far too long has been seeking to overhype and to write in a sensationalizing tone, rather than to dig deeper, and to educate herself more fully about all aspects of the sport, including a variety of complex, underlying issues and personalities. Human lives are always involved and many topics are too complicated to be fairly and objectively covered when a self-important 'scooping' and 'gotcha' mentality is uppermost in the overall reporting approach.
 
Poor USFSA, just a mere ~13 years ago, their favorite son served as an advisor to a film where Sasha Cohen smelled a jock strap and the main character talked about 'tapping' and leaving Michelle Kwan. Now his replacements in the commentating gig might be cancelled because of a camel toe joke using footage of a current skater. They must be so confused.
 
Tony Wheeler said:
I think Brennan does a fine job of pulling out some really good stories, but she has her moments just as everyone else does. She's definitely not the flip-floppy Dave Lease type (who was trying to go after Nick McCarvel most recently), but she also doesn't seem to always have best intentions in mind. I mean, which journalist actually does? Even Phil Hersh for a while was having meltdowns over US skaters' poor results and even a bronze medal in an international was a 'who cares' headline.
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Of some other sports Brennan reports on (and has written books about), she isn't that well thought of in the golfing or tennis communities, either.
 
Tony Wheeler said:
I think Brennan does a fine job of pulling out some really good stories, but she has her moments just as everyone else does. She's definitely not the flip-floppy Dave Lease type (who was trying to go after Nick McCarvel most recently), but she also doesn't seem to always have best intentions in mind. I mean, which journalist actually does? Even Phil Hersh for a while was having meltdowns over US skaters' poor results and even a bronze medal in an international was a 'who cares' headline.
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Lease may have a nice backlog of skating tapes to share on YouTube, but his ridiculous behaviour reminds me of this quote from the movie, Transamercia.

Toby : Your parents' house is a lot nicer.
Bree Osbourne : My parents' house comes with my parents.
 
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viennese said:
If this story about Johnny and Tara is true, 1) it's a borderline crap thing to do 2) they could lose their commentary jobs or not get their contract renewed.
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The show they were promoting in the video is on Peacock, which is run by NBC and features stars of NBC shows:
variety.com

Peacock to Launch ‘At-Home Variety Show’ Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

The first episode will be available to stream at 7 p.m. ET tonight.
variety.com variety.com

I doubt that NBC is going to fire them for saying what they did on a show produced and distributed by NBC.
 
There does seem to be a very concerted effort right now to discredit Brennan as a journalist.

What a coincidence that she is also the only skating journalist working hard to report on systemic abuse and coverups in our sport.

Now, I can't possibly imagine why people would want to discredit a journalist doing that work...oh. wait.
 
viennese said:
The real question is:

If this story about Johnny and Tara is true, 1) it's a borderline crap thing to do 2) they could lose their commentary jobs or not get their contract renewed.
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You make it sound like that would be a bad thing. :confused:
 
misskarne said:
There does seem to be a very concerted effort right now to discredit Brennan as a journalist.

What a coincidence that she is also the only skating journalist working hard to report on systemic abuse and coverups in our sport.

Now, I can't possibly imagine why people would want to discredit a journalist doing that work...oh. wait.
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Many of us have been critical of Brennan for 20 years or more before her investigation into sexual assault. She’s doing good work with the sexual assault allegations but it doesn’t mean we can’t still be critical of her past work or question her journalistic integrity since it’s been pretty consistent. That said, she’s the only journalist talking about this with skating and she deserves credit for that. Although, I think it is sad for us who don’t respect her and says things about people may not care about this as much that we’re stuck with her as like the only journalist doing this. If only there was like team like the Indianapolis Star who did excellent work with US gymnastics and the whole Nassar thing and beyond. But I don’t think people who are criticizing her in this thread should be categorized with people who want to hide sexual assault. Some of us have been highly critical of the USFS and other feds with regard to this and think more needs to be done. I really think this accusation is unfair actually.
 
overedge said:
The show they were promoting in the video is on Peacock, which is run by NBC and features stars of NBC shows:
variety.com

Peacock to Launch ‘At-Home Variety Show’ Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

The first episode will be available to stream at 7 p.m. ET tonight.
variety.com variety.com

I doubt that NBC is going to fire them for saying what they did on a show produced and distributed by NBC.
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It could happen if they ever got enough backlash over comments they make. Sam Newman can attest to that.
 
misskarne said:
There does seem to be a very concerted effort right now to discredit Brennan as a journalist.

What a coincidence that she is also the only skating journalist working hard to report on systemic abuse and coverups in our sport.

Now, I can't possibly imagine why people would want to discredit a journalist doing that work...oh. wait.
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Exactly. Thank you for pointing this out.
 
misskarne said:
There does seem to be a very concerted effort right now to discredit Brennan as a journalist.

What a coincidence that she is also the only skating journalist working hard to report on systemic abuse and coverups in our sport.

Now, I can't possibly imagine why people would want to discredit a journalist doing that work...oh. wait.
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:rolleyes: Strongly critiquing Brennan's approach to figure skating coverage is not 'discrediting' her as a journalist. She needs to do a better job in her approach to reporting on figure skating, and she has needed to do so for many years. Fine and good that she's intent on bringing out issues of abuse in the sport. But how she goes about it is as important as 'scooping' such stories and bringing important issues to the forefront. I don't think Brennan approaches her reporting with thorough investigation or thoughtfulness in her writing that takes all the complexities and issues involved into careful consideration. If it's about rushing the story out with sensational phrasing, then of course, she's always 'Christy on the Spot.' She also seems more interested in the 'big-name allegations,' rather than in the serious abuses deeply ingrained in the culture of the sport that in many instances have involved a number of lesser known coaches and skaters over a longer time in the past, than just recent high-profile cases.

As I said, none of us are perfect, and that includes all of us fans commenting on the sidelines with our various opinions and emotions. Being self-righteous and always at the ready for finger-pointing doesn't absolve any of us from our own particular human failings.
 
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Orm Irian said:
It could happen if they ever got enough backlash over comments they make. Sam Newman can attest to that.
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But the comments they made in this situation were most likely scripted comments, not off-the-cuff remarks. If NBC arranged for them to be on the show, which was produced by NBC, and they were given a script and told to read it, NBC would have a very difficult time defending itself if it later fired them for what they said.

If they were doing unscripted commentary during a skating broadcast, and made snarky remarks about skaters having camel toes, NBC would be well within its rights to dump them.
 
I haven't seen the video. It doesn't seem to be readily viewable now. Is it mandatory viewing before we can comment?
 
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