U.S. Men in 2017 - articles & latest news

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Re school and skipping grades. Anybody remember Alice Sue Claeys? When she won the US junior title in 1990, she was 14 years old and a college freshman carrying a full-time class load. The story was that her mom put her in correspondence courses instead of elementary school because she was training away from home much of the year from a really young age, and she zipped right through them. IIRC she did graduate from a regular high school.
 
aftershocks said:
What does Vincent skipping two grades have to do with the discussion at hand though? :confused: :COP:
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Someone was just curious about it and the American public school system in general. Since this came about after someone read that article about Vincent linked in this thread, it fits the thread.
 
Of course it answers the question based on the linked article, but doesn't have much to do with assessing Vincent's overall talents and his high likelihood of making the U.S. team. Sure Vincent is very bright and determined, which makes him a wonderful competitor, and that's great. I'm still unconvinced that he's mature enough or precocious enough as a senior at the moment. Apparently, the judges are planning to reward him though for the quads. They didn't give him much in the sp at Finlandia with his mistakes. But perhaps someone spoke to the judges after the sp to take more notice of the kid's quadificence, because the judges did pick up with the rewards in the fp. Adam, without making several minor mistakes in his fp, still might have come slightly ahead of Vincent overall.

Dave Lease spoke on the latest TSL about the bottleneck for U.S. Aside from the unnecessarily harsh snark toward Adam, Ashley, Polina, and Gabby Daleman which I disagree with, there was some interesting commentary. Adam should be given more credit and respect for what he's accomplished. I am surprised to see Adam not have a new sp. His last season's sp worked well for him, and I got it and I liked it. He was wonderfully precise and sharp with it at a number of his comps last season. He was okay at Finlandia, but since he's keeping the gorgeous Birds program, I think Adam should try to do something new for his sp. I guess what he had planned didn't pan out, and maybe he doesn't feel there's enough time to do something new. If I were Adam, I'd maybe look at a different sp that worked well for him in past seasons. I wonder what happened to the program he'd planned for the short?
 
aftershocks said:
They didn't give him much in the sp at Finlandia with his mistakes. But perhaps someone spoke to the judges after the sp to take more notice of the kid's quadificence, because the judges did pick up with the rewards in the fp.
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Actually, Vincent's PCS didn't improve substantially from SP to FP. His PCS were 6th in the free (a full 10 points behind Adam... and also behind Kolyada, Jin, Miner and Brezina.) If someone did speak to the judges, it didn't work. ;)
 
The classic argument about skipping grades is the same about homeschooling: the children lose the socialization experience, kids who go to college early, especially prodigies are socially inept and isolated, being younger than one's peers can by physically and emotionally challenging, if not dangerous. I think the socialization aspects especially of the strict grade system are highly overrated and that a little bit goes a long way.
 
toddlj said:
Actually, Vincent's PCS didn't improve substantially from SP to FP. His PCS were 6th in the free (a full 10 points behind Adam... and also behind Kolyada, Jin, Miner and Brezina.) If someone did speak to the judges, it didn't work. ;)
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I wasn't speaking of Vincent's PCS, but indeed his PCS improved enough across the board in the fp for Vincent to move into first place after placing 6th overall even behind Michal Brezina and Paul Fentz in the sp, in addition to the other top skaters he later trumped overall with his fp scores. Vincent was only about a point ahead of Brezina on tech in the sp, but well behind him on PCS. And Vincent was behind everyone else on TES who placed ahead of him in the sp.

Despite having more quads in the fp, I wouldn't say that was appreciably why Vincent's tech and PCS scores increased. I thought his scores in the sp were a bit low comparatively, even despite his mistakes. Vincent's scores increased significantly on tech and appreciably on PCS in the fp, especially for the fact he did not skate completely clean in either program. That's why I attribute a bit of talking to the judges which is not unusual in figure skating, since they all know each other. It might be as simple as asking for info re some of the sp marks and talking about Vincent's strengths to show how he's being backed.

Check out the protocols. All it takes is a slight increase which there was across the board on tech and PCS in the fp: increases of .50 on SS, .21 on TR, a whopping .92 on PE, .38 on CO, and .50 on IN

And this without substantial overall improvement in any of those categories. Maybe they just liked the choreo in the fp better. I'm not saying Vincent didn't deserve these average range of scores for the fp, as I do think he had been slightly held down in the sp. It's just that as usual, judging is manipulable and suspect.
 
aftershocks said:
I wasn't speaking of Vincent's PCS, but indeed his PCS improved enough across the board in the fp for Vincent to move into first place after placing 6th overall even behind Michal Brezina and Paul Fentz in the sp, in addition to the other top skaters he later trumped overall with his fp scores.

Despite having more quads in the fp, I wouldn't say that was appreciably why Vincent's tech and PCS scores increased. I thought his scores in the sp were a bit low comparatively, even despite his mistakes. Vincent's scores increased significantly on tech and appreciably on PCS in the fp, especially for the fact he did not skate completely clean in either program. That's why I attribute a bit of talking to the judges which is not unusual in figure skating, since they all know each other. It might be as simple as asking for info re some of the sp marks and talking about Vincent's strengths to show how he's being backed.

Check out the protocols. All it takes is a slight increase which there was across the board on tech and PCS in the fp: increases of .50 on SS, .21 on TR, a whopping .92 on PE, .38 on CO, and .50 on IN

And this without substantial overall improvement in any of those categories. Maybe they just liked the choreo in the fp better. I'm not saying Vincent didn't deserve these average range of scores for the fp, as I do think he had been slightly held down in the sp. It's just that as usual, judging is manipulable and suspect.
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Meh. I think those increases are pretty minimal (and scores still very low.) SP was sloppy as heck, FP much less so. But YMMV.
 
^^ Minimal makes a difference in competition with other skaters where the scores are fairly close. The slightest increase or decrease makes a difference, and it did for Vincent. Like I said, his sp scores seemed a bit low to me. Percentage point differences can be huge in figure skating. That's why it pays to examine the protocols if you want to truly talk about the numbers, which is sometimes what we get reduced to talking about because the numbers are there. Personally, I tend to trust my own eyes when viewing and discussing programs, but comparative analyses of the numbers and how each judge scored can definitely be revealing whether or not the numbers seem accurate.

What with Vincent's mistakes in both programs, I was surprised to see him fare that much better in the fp. Yes he didn't mess up as much in the fp, but there were still bobbles here and there. I did feel the sp marks were a bit low despite his mistakes. I can understand the low PE for the sp, and a slight increase for fp, but it was a significant increase on PE. Therefore, it's not really clear going forward how Vincent will be assessed internationally from comp to comp. We'll see.
 
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aftershocks said:
^^ Minimal makes a difference in competition with other skaters where the scores are fairly close. The slightest increase or decrease makes a difference, and it did for Vincent. Like I said, his sp scores seemed a bit low to me. Percentage point differences can be huge in figure skating. That's why it pays to examine the protocols if you want to truly talk about the numbers, which is sometimes what we get reduced to talking about because the numbers are there. Personally, I tend to trust my eyes, but comparative analyses of the numbers are revealing whether or not the numbers seem accurate.
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Wow, that was condescending. Thanks for the advice but I'm not some newbie and am very familiar with the protocols and how they work. :)
 
Is it just me or do both of Vincent's programs seem quite similar? I'm not that familiar with Moulin Rouge, so upon first viewings both just looked like generic male ballads to me. Also both seem a bit too much like exhibition programs..
 
^^ I would agree with you @shine that both programs seemed in the same vein, even in terms of execution, aside from Vincent making less mistakes in the fp, but his landings were still wonky.

Sorry you took my comments as condescending toward you @toddlj. It's not that crucial obviously, but I was pointing out what prompted my earlier comment that you seemingly tagged as not being relevant. Whether true or not that someone gained their ear, the judges did increase Vincent's PCS significantly enough for whatever reason, which took Vincent from 6th to 1st. I doubt that Vincent expected to win this comp after the sp results. And not immediately after finishing his fp either.
 
aftershocks said:
Sorry you took my comments as condescending toward you @toddlj. It's not that crucial obviously, but I was pointing out what prompted my earlier comment that you seemingly tagged as not being relevant. Whether true or not that someone gained their ear, the judges did increase Vincent's PCS significantly enough for whatever reason, which took Vincent from 6th to 1st. I doubt that Vincent expected to win this comp after the sp results. And not immediately after finishing his fp either.
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And I'm sorry to have seemed dismissive of your initial comment. Can we still be friends? :) I guess I was actually expecting a bigger difference, as I thought the difference in the execution of the two programs was quite stark.
 
^^ Well, I'm going to have to go back and watch both of Vincent's programs again @toddlj. ;) I don't think I will change my mind from my first impressions though. And as we know, the judges never change their scores, although their minds can likely be swayed from sp to fp. :D

You are an Ash Wagner fan and I am too, so we must stick together! :cheer2: :)
 
To be honest I don't think the popularity of Nathan Chen reflects any general pattern about young skaters versus veterans or USFS' habit. The US figure skating community has been waiting anxiously for Nathan to grow up since he was a tiny tween, when venerable figures like Boitano and Hamilton were talking about a novice skater with disbelief. After a few years of uncertainty, he is growing up and delivering what they had hoped for and perhaps more. I can kind of understand why USFS and NBC are acting a little bonkers right now.

Even though Nathan is not my favorite skater (at least not yet), I have to admit he is a unicorn. The amount of attention on him is long time coming and very specific.
 
kwanette said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph9Z7A3HrnU A very nice video put up today on Max.
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It's like every time he opens his mouth he just makes himself more likable and awesome. ;)

He certainly sounds determined not to let anyone or anything get between him and the Olympic team this time. He has his best programs ever with his highest technical content ever. Please, please, please...
 
^^ Yes, it was very quick rotations in the air, and Vincent is far away from the camera. It's difficult to catch that extra split-second revolution with the naked eye sometimes.

And yes, I get the message Vincent is trying to send by posting this Rippon-quad-lutz. The Rippon move was invented by guess who? And also the lutz is one of AdaRipp's best jumps. That's why AdaRipp has been trying so hard to get the quad lutz. It looks beautiful on Vincent (with the patented Rippon two arms overhead), but let's see Vincent do it like that in competition.

Sylvia said:
Adam discussed it near the end of his Ice Talk podcast interview (episode 44) before he left for Finlandia last week, around the 45-minute mark: http://web.icenetwork.com/fans/icetalk
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So I see Adam is saying that people love his sp and want him to bring it back too. Perhaps he feels very comfortable with it, and he found it simpler to concentrate on training hard and tweaking the programs he already has, especially with the fact that his season last year was shortened by his injury and so he can put more mileage this season on programs that worked decently well for him. If Adam hits his out-of-the-box disco voguing sp just right, he's delightful, but I love his Birds program more.
 
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At the last JGP event, Torgashev in 4th after the SP. What must he do to get to the Final?

Decent skate has Hiwatashi in 3rd
 
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