Tracking Russian figure skating's support for the war

[Bulletsdad]

You believe they're being forced? Based on what? And how come others have stayed silent? Why weren't they "forced"?

This. I am no fan of Eteri, but even she, the highest profile member of Team Russia, has managed to remain silent.

 

[tony]

This. I am no fan of Eteri, but even she, the highest profile member of Team Russia, has managed to remained silent.

This isn't the strongest argument for me. Who cares if Eteri is the most prolific person? That might actually give her some power and no pressure from the people around her to say something because of her intimidation factor. However, younger athletes who have likely been sheltered to an extent (because that's how figure skating is) and who are still heavily relying on skating shows, family, or whatever to navigate the world and build their own financial success don't have such luxuries. Not all of the people on the list are in these situations, but you never know their stories.

If I was younger, in my skating prime after having gone to the rink 5x a week for the last 15-20 years, and shut out of ISU competition while skating opportunity and money is booming in Russia, I don't know that it would be as easy as saying nothing/not supporting the war vs. anxiety or maybe even desperation to not let it all fall apart. But that's just me.

 

[Bulletsdad]

This isn't the strongest argument for me. Who cares if Eteri is the most prolific person? That might actually give her some power and no pressure from the people around her to say something because of her intimidation factor. However, younger athletes who have likely been sheltered to an extent (because that's how figure skating is) and who are still heavily relying on skating shows, family, or whatever to navigate the world and build their own financial success don't have such luxuries. Not all of the people on the list are in these situations, but you never know their stories.

If I was younger, in my skating prime after having gone to the rink 5x a week for the last 15-20 years, and shut out of ISU competition while skating opportunity and money is booming in Russia, I don't know that it would be as easy as saying nothing/not supporting the war vs. anxiety or maybe even desperation to not let it all fall apart. But that's just me.

Well, if they are forced, then that's on the FSB and Putin. It is not the West's job to infer and mitigate collateral damage. Liberal democracies made a big mistake in allowing Hitler to use athletes as propaganda in 1936 Berlin; they should not make the same mistake now.

 

[Bigbird]

I honestly can’t believe you type this stuff out and post it for people to have to read. Your concern is whether the people being invaded and murdered are nice enough to the people invading and killing them? And if not, what, they deserve it?

You miss the point completely. Many Russians soldiers are damned if the do or damned if they don't. Not many had the resources to leave Russia. EI and SP were desperate to have their second son born in the US but it just could not happen.
Many conscripts have essentially been sent on a suicide mission, many. Nobody is winning in this war except Putin. You do realize that Russia is more than one man, right?

Forget the skaters. There are very few making the money to leave Russia and what do they do about their extended family? Its not as black and white as you seem to think.

 

[Vagabond]

Some two million Russians have left Russia in the past year. Where there is a will, there is a way.

I suspect that we will see some Russian-born skaters emerge whose families emigrated or sent them to other countries after the war started. There will also be many whose families couldn't or didn't want to do likewise.

I would, however, be surprised if a significant number of current elite skaters emigrate unless the young men start getting drafted.

 

[Irina89]

?!
Crimea is Ukraine

Crimea is not Ukraine. Crimea belonged to the Tatar people who were killed by Stalin. Hrusciov decided to make it a part of RSS Ukraine. Of course what Putin did in 2014 was illegal by international law standards, but why rewrite history?

 

[airgelaal]

we run in circles. russians are still trying to justify their cowardice and indifference.
And I now agree that the russian athletes had no choice but to support putin. They just have different "moral" values.

 

[reut]

Crimea is not Ukraine. Crimea belonged to the Tatar people who were killed by Stalin. Hrusciov decided to make it a part of RSS Ukraine. Of course what Putin did in 2014 was illegal by international law standards, but why rewrite history?

Nobody re-writes history (and nobody is talking about it). Crimea is officially a part of Ukraine, a fact verified and recognised by the world.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

You miss the point completely. Many Russians soldiers are damned if the do or damned if they don't. Not many had the resources to leave Russia. EI and SP were desperate to have their second son born in the US but it just could not happen.
Many conscripts have essentially been sent on a suicide mission, many. Nobody is winning in this war except Putin. You do realize that Russia is more than one man, right?

Forget the skaters. There are very few making the money to leave Russia and what do they do about their extended family? Its not as black and white as you seem to think.

And what does that have to do with focusing on the victims and asking if it's their fault? Please, anyone who can read knows where you stand.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Julia L is already married!?!?!?!?!.

wow

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I’m going to slightly derail this topic I find it interesting I guess from a cultural difference that so many get married so young like Kolyada, Anna P. there’s a whole world out there to explore? I say go explore. .

 

[barbarafan]

Since you’ve asked for me to spell it out…

• You’re expressing an opinion, which either means you’re trying to convince or you’re just here to pontificate. Your continuing to argue implies the former (if I’m being generous.)
• If the former, the quality of your previous opinions and arguments is relevant.
• You’re proud of your B&K Riverdance avatar, which implies at minimum you’re a B&K fan generally, and likely implies you’re a fan of the program.
• Their Riverdance FD was probably the most unworthy world medal winning program since the 70s (and yes, I’m including Grushina & Goncharov’s medals). In no way was this program competitive. It was full of open holds, posing, and had one difficult step in the entire program.
• So, you’re proud of this avatar. What about that program made you proud? The absurd simplicity? His stiff back? Her terrible posture? Their whining about feeling cheated? Its only redeeming qualities are unintended (more below).
• So, this opinion, this value of proudly displaying B&K’s Riverdance calls into question your taste, judgement, and basic understanding about Ice Dance. It’s so out there, that it causes me to question your general discernment. This should lead you back to my original comment on this thread.

The only things that made Riverdance worth while are that it’s so bad it’s fun to make fun of, and that Oksana Grishuk said she could learn the program in a day.

I loved that program.

 

[Nadya]

I’m going to slightly derail this topic I find it interesting I guess from a cultural difference that so many get married so young like Kolyada, Anna P. there’s a whole world out there to explore? I say go explore. .

You can always explore after the first divorce.

 

[Nadya]

I'm not interested in whataboutism.

Whataboutism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I already explained the purpose of the thread. If a skater or coach chooses to go public with their support for this war, it's their choice. It's not our job to cover up for them, only document their choice to go public with their support for genocide.

By the way, this is not Russia's first genocide in Ukraine:

Holodomor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The link you posted says this

While scholars universally agree that the cause of the famine was man-made, whether the Holodomor constitutes a genocide remains in dispute.[16][17][18][19] Some historians conclude that the famine was planned and exacerbated by Joseph Stalin in order to eliminate a Ukrainian independence movement.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor#cite_note-Britannica_"Holodomor"-21[20] Others suggest that the famine arose because of rapid Soviet industrialisation and collectivization of agriculture.[21][22][23]

I mean if you want to get all ethnic, blame the Georgian!

 

[Nadya]

So if the Americans were not punished, then no one should be punished. It is strange that no one remembers that russia was never punished either.
It's amazing how many people want to keep this cycle of violence going.

Mostly it's that people don't want to be lectured on the evils of invasions and civilian casualties by the nations guilty of multiple invasions and massive civilian casualties. But never mind; if you rule the world, the people you kill don't matter. If they are brown and Muslim, they matter even less.

 

[tmari]

Mostly it's that people don't want to be lectured on the evils of invasions and civilian casualties by the nations guilty of multiple invasions and massive civilian casualties. But never mind; if you rule the world, the people you kill don't matter. If they are brown and Muslim, they matter even less.

If they mattered to you, you wouldn't be using them as tools to deflect from what Russia is doing.
Does a rape victim feel they matter if you watch someone else being raped and do nothing except "what about" all the people whose rapists weren't caught, hindering the response to the person currently being raped...

 

[Bulletsdad]

You miss the point completely. Many Russians soldiers are damned if the do or damned if they don't. Not many had the resources to leave Russia. EI and SP were desperate to have their second son born in the US but it just could not happen.
Many conscripts have essentially been sent on a suicide mission, many. Nobody is winning in this war except Putin. You do realize that Russia is more than one man, right?

Forget the skaters. There are very few making the money to leave Russia and what do they do about their extended family? Its not as black and white as you seem to think.

You miss the point completely. Many Russians soldiers are damned if the do or damned if they don't. Not many had the resources to leave Russia. EI and SP were desperate to have their second son born in the US but it just could not happen.
Many conscripts have essentially been sent on a suicide mission, many. Nobody is winning in this war except Putin. You do realize that Russia is more than one man, right?

Forget the skaters. There are very few making the money to leave Russia and what do they do about their extended family? Its not as black and white as you seem to think.

Mostly it's that people don't want to be lectured on the evils of invasions and civilian casualties by the nations guilty of multiple invasions and massive civilian casualties. But never mind; if you rule the world, the people you kill don't matter. If they are brown and Muslim, they matter even less.

Well, Russia is also being "lectured" by Canada, Australia, New Zealand and most of Europe, save Belarus and Serbia. What evils have these nations recently perpetrated? Are we going to whatabout Hitler's Germany, or maybe even Spain's inquisition? Also, as an American with critical thinking ability, I was protesting the IRAQ war, and I cheered on others who did the same. I wasn't whataboutng the Russian invasion of Afghanistan or the Nazi invasion of Poland.

 

[Vagabond]

It would be a fair point that countries currently conducting an armed occupation foreign territory should not lecture Russia. To suggest that countries cannot learn from and disagree with the actions of past governments, past regimes, and even former states on their territory, however, is silly.

 

[airgelaal]

I don't understand what we're arguing about here. If the athletes were forced to publicly support the war, then they have the opportunity to gather evidence and defend themselves. Or should we just believe them?
And no one should be punished for doping. If an athlete says he is innocent, then he is innocent. Especially the russians. They were all clearly forced to take doping. Then why punish them? Let them continue doping and support the war.

 

[MacMadame]

Are we going to whatabout Hitler's Germany, or maybe even Spain's inquisition?

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

 

[Bigbird]

And what does that have to do with focusing on the victims and asking if it's their fault? Please, anyone who can read knows where you stand.

Good on you. I'm mostly conflicted.

 

[Ananas Astra]

I’m going to slightly derail this topic I find it interesting I guess from a cultural difference that so many get married so young like Kolyada, Anna P. there’s a whole world out there to explore? I say go explore. .

It is actually quite common to marry young in Russia.
My mom was considered an "old maid" because she was not married by the age of 25, whereas most of her former classmates had been divorced once or twice already by that age.

Kolyada got married in his mid-20s...so also not too young by Russian standards.

 

[Cachoo]

Well, Russia is also being "lectured" by Canada, Australia, New Zealand and most of Europe, save Belarus and Serbia. What evils have these nations recently perpetrated? Are we going to whatabout Hitler's Germany, or maybe even Spain's inquisition? Also, as an American with critical thinking ability, I was protesting the IRAQ war, and I cheered on others who did the same. I wasn't whataboutng the Russian invasion of Afghanistan or the Nazi invasion of Poland.

Me as well---but I do have to say that being on my soapbox denouncing Bush and his actions regarding Iraq is simply not the same as protesting Putin's decision to invade Ukraine in Russia. I'm not going to end up in the gulag no matter how much I protest. I think the Russians who have stood up are very, very brave.

 

[PRlady]

Right now in Israel, groups representing reservists and fighter pilots and military intelligence are signing letters saying they refuse to serve if the gutting of the judiciary goes through. In a citizens’ army this is a very big deal. Academics, high-techers and other important professions are also protesting very visibly.

I would wish for the same mobilisation in Russia, once the numbers get large they can’t imprison everyone. But I certainly don’t think it’s the figure skaters who will lead the way.

Air Force chief removes reservist pilot for urging refusal over judicial shakeup

Air Force chief removes reservist pilot for urging refusal over judicial shakeup

Col. 'Gimmel' gave media interviews about concerns in IAF about government's planned moves; military's statement cites 'inappropriate' conduct 'contrary to guidance' of IAF chief

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[Mozart]

It would be a fair point that countries currently conducting an armed occupation foreign territory should not lecture Russia. To suggest that countries cannot learn from and disagree with the actions of past governments, past regimes, and even former states on their territory, however, is silly.

You mean the countries that are selling weapons to hostile countries that are using them to decimate innocent people at the moment? Because you know that the US and Canada are doing that right now

 

[Mozart]

Well, Russia is also being "lectured" by Canada, Australia, New Zealand and most of Europe, save Belarus and Serbia. What evils have these nations recently perpetrated? Are we going to whatabout Hitler's Germany, or maybe even Spain's inquisition? Also, as an American with critical thinking ability, I was protesting the IRAQ war, and I cheered on others who did the same. I wasn't whataboutng the Russian invasion of Afghanistan or the Nazi invasion of Poland.

Well Canada (and us and UK and others) are selling weapons to Saudi Arabia that they know are being used to decimate the Yemen people. That's pretty evil if you ask me but hey nobody cares about the Yemeni anyways I guess they are expendable.

Saudi Arabia top export destination for Canadian arms after United States in 2021

Almost all of Canada’s arms exports to Saudi Arabia are combat vehicles, as part of the $15-billion contract brokered by the Harper government but approved by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau

www.theglobeandmail.com

War on Yemen: Stop Canadian arms sales to Saudi Arabia - Spring

Canada has placed profits over peace, refusing to halt weapons sales to Saudi Arabia. This refusal constitutes an apathy towards the suffering of Yemenis, and a self-seeking posture towards war.

springmag.ca

 

[Bigbird]

Well Canada (and us and UK and others) are selling weapons to Saudi Arabia that they know are being used to decimate the Yemen people. That's pretty evil if you ask me but hey nobody cares about the Yemeni anyways I guess they are expendable.

Saudi Arabia top export destination for Canadian arms after United States in 2021

Almost all of Canada’s arms exports to Saudi Arabia are combat vehicles, as part of the $15-billion contract brokered by the Harper government but approved by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau

www.theglobeandmail.com

War on Yemen: Stop Canadian arms sales to Saudi Arabia - Spring

Canada has placed profits over peace, refusing to halt weapons sales to Saudi Arabia. This refusal constitutes an apathy towards the suffering of Yemenis, and a self-seeking posture towards war.

springmag.ca

Are these brown people? Just asking for a friend.

 

[PRlady]

Are these brown people? Just asking for a friend.

Of course they are. The Saudis are fighting a proxy war with Iran and the brown people are expendable fodder.

 

[Bigbird]

Of course they are. The Saudis are fighting a proxy war with Iran and the brown people are expendable fodder.

Yup.

 

[Bulletsdad]

Me as well---but I do have to say that being on my soapbox denouncing Bush and his actions regarding Iraq is simply not the same as protesting Putin's decision to invade Ukraine in Russia. I'm not going to end up in the gulag no matter how much I protest. I think the Russians who have stood up are very, very brave.

Oh, I agree. I do not expect Russians to publicly protest, as it's simply a recipe for a long term stay in a penal colony. However, I would at least hope for most to remain silent, and not justify the war by whining about whataboutism and unfair lectures. Instead, they should welcome the international pressure to help oust their madman.