Tracking Russian figure skating's support for the war

[Perky Shae Lynn]

They chose to publicly support the war. Why is this such a difficult concept for you to grasp?

In a debate, there is not need to resort to "why are you so stupid" approach. It's not difficult for me grasp that Russia is not a free country. But if someone freely supports the war, that's a stain on their soul. It's not the cause to track them the way the KGB would track you. It's not a cause to put a target on their backs. That's just my personal opinion.

 

[airgelaal]

In a debate, you do not resort to "why are you so stupid" approach. It's not difficult for me grasp that Russia is not a free country. But if someone freely supports the war, that's a stain on their soul. It's not the cause to track them the way the KGB would track you. It's not a cause to put a target on their back.

It's okay to openly support rape, but it's not okay to make a list of those who support it. Did I understand the logic correctly? The most important thing is to protect rapists, not victims?

 

[tmari]

Perky Shae Lynn, you've failed to explain how I've "put a target on their back" or how this resembles the KGB.

For the last time, no one is forcing Russia's skaters to publicly support the war. It's a choice.

 

[2sk8]

By the way, this is not Russia's first genocide in Ukraine:

Holodomor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And, the horrific murders and tortures Russia is engaged in now against Ukrainians are the same as what Russians did to Ukrainians During WW2. So, if a Russian skater has publicly supported that, there is no secret nor improper accusation. If someone doesn't want to read or add to that list, just don't.

 

[2sk8]

In case everyone has forgotten... The single biggest reason for the international sports ban was because Russia violated the "Olympic/Paralympic Truce" period and invaded Ukraine during that time window. If Putin had waited a month, I highly doubt the IOC would have done a thing, but it was because of the timing of the invasion, which is supposed to be a time when governments don't go invading other countries and starting wars, the international outcry and move to ban Russia from international sports was swift, loud and sustained.

Excellent point regarding the relevance of this "list"

 

[Bigbird]

Remember we do not know all the facts. This is not the west. This is an alternate reality. We're also not seeing attrocities committed by Ukranian soldiers on Russian soldiers. Many Russian soldiers themselves do not support the war so this in itself is a suicide mission. They simply don't have a choice. Many Russians simply want their family members to come home alive. This vitriol though understood is misdirected.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

Perky Shae Lynn, you've failed to explain how I've "put a target on their back" or how this resembles the KGB.

For the last time, no one is forcing Russia's skaters to publicly support the war. It's a choice.

How do you know that?

 

[Bigbird]

How do you know that?

They are funded by the state, right? It's reasonable to expect there are some expectations....this convo just seems very odd.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

They are funded by the state, right? It's reasonable to expect there are some expectations....this convo just seems very odd.

Indeed.

 

[tmari]

How do you know that?

You believe they're being forced? Based on what? And how come others have stayed silent? Why weren't they "forced"?

 

[airgelaal]

How do you know that?

If they chose to become cowards and act as they were forced, then this is also a choice. Every choice has a price. Anyone. They had the choice to disagree and possibly go to jail. But they chose another option.

 

[thvu]

Proudly so since 2002.

Over two decades of proudly lacking taste and discernment. Oh dear...

 

[airgelaal]

EXPLAINER: What is behind Belarus athlete's Olympics crisis?

KYIV, Ukraine (AP) — A feud between Belarusian Olympic sprinter Krystsina Tsimanouskaya and team officials that prompted her to seek refuge in the European Union has again cast a spotlight on the repressive environment in the athlete's home country, an ex-Soviet nation where authorities have...

apnews.com

Many Belarusian athletes have faced reprisals after speaking out against the authorities and voicing their support for protests.

Belarus basketball star Yelena Leuchanka, an ex-WNBA player, spent 15 days in jail in October after protesting peacefully against authorities. She later told the AP that prison conditions were awful, with no hot water and toilet in her cell and inmates forced to sleep on metal beds without mattresses.

Maria Shakuro, the captain of the Belarus national rugby team and bronze medalist of the European Beach Rugby Championships, also was sentenced to 10 days in jail for participating in a peaceful protest.

The legendary Olympic hammer thrower, Vadim Devyatovsky, was dismissed in September as the head of the country’s athletics federation after a Facebook post critical of Lukashenko.

And Natalya Petrakova, one of the most famous Belarussian handball players, was fired as the senior coach of the women’s handball national team after signing a letter of protest.

All these athletes could either remain silent or support the criminal regime of Lukashenka. But they made a DIFFERENT choice. And they continue to make this choice even now.
Therefore, do not tell me that russian athletes have no choice. They just don't want to pay the appropriate price for whatever choice they make.

 

[barbarafan]

So your definition of "neutral" is not saying anything publicly? What if these neutral athletes are huge war supporters, but not vocal about it?

you need some sort of witness? proof? to ban someone...I hope they do get the proof. Ukrainians should not have to share the ice with PPL actively supporting genocide.

 

[Prancer]

In order to counter attempts to overturn the ban, it's important to track Russian skaters' own statements and activities.

Important for whom? Is this being done on behalf of some official agency or something?

I am not sure I see the point of this page. What is going to be done with this information and who is going to use it?

In any case, if we must argue about it, can we at least stick to the topic at hand?

 

[caseyedwards]

They chose to publicly support the war. Why is this such a difficult concept for you to grasp?

You don’t know the reasons

 

[Bigbird]

A lot of this could be staged.....again I say we don't know the half of it.

 

[MacMadame]

It's uncomfortable to stop and think. The idea of "tracking Russian skaters support for war" is disturbing. The KGB is big on this stuff, tracking the enemies. But go ahead, do you. I would suggest putting energies into supporting Ukrainian skaters. Vadym Kolesnik has a go fund me, would be a much better way to help someone.

So people can't do both?

I don't disagree in principle. Russian skaters are banned for a reason. I do disagree with the double-standard - other nations not being called out for similar invasions. But mostly, I disagree with militant tactics (aka enemy tracking) directed towards specific individuals. It's not ok and it's dangerous.

So start a thread in PI about it.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

Over two decades of proudly lacking taste and discernment. Oh dear...

What do B&K have to do with this discussion?

 

[Andora]

In a debate, there is not need to resort to "why are you so stupid" approach. It's not difficult for me grasp that Russia is not a free country. But if someone freely supports the war, that's a stain on their soul. It's not the cause to track them the way the KGB would track you. It's not a cause to put a target on their backs. That's just my personal opinion.

Interesting - didn't you post this earlier? Is it so different?

It's uncomfortable to stop and think.

Do you miss Russian skaters that much? Weird for a B&K fan.

This isn't comparable to the KGB/McCarthyism. The IOC themselves suggested allowing neutral athletes while disallowing Russian athletes who support the war. I personally think the IOC is simply paying lip service with the second part, as they tend to value money more than human rights, but it was their suggestion. Why is it concerning to note who's stood up at pro-Putin rallies and who hasn't? Unless holding the IOC accountable to its own potential policy is sub ideal?

 

[MacMadame]

Important for whom? Is this being done on behalf of some official agency or something?

I am not sure I see the point of this page. What is going to be done with this information and who is going to use it?

I would want the IOC to be keeping track. Do I trust them to do so? No. Will this page be used to hold them to account? Too soon to say. Is that the purpose of the page? I'm guessing it is.

You don’t know the reasons

The reasons don't matter because the IOC hasn't said that you can come to Paris 2024 if you had a good reason for supporting the war. If they do change their minds and say that, (a) all hell is going to break loose and (b) Russian athletes' reasons will then matter.

Personally, if they are going to change their minds, I hope they change it to say "No Russian athletes in any Olympic sporting events until Russia is out of Ukraine and makes reparations."

 

[caseyedwards]

I would want the IOC to be keeping track. Do I trust them to do so? No. Will this page be used to hold them to account? Too soon to say. Is that the purpose of the page? I'm guessing it is.


The reasons don't matter because the IOC hasn't said that you can come to Paris 2024 if you had a good reason for supporting the war. If they do change their minds and say that, (a) all hell is going to break loose and (b) Russian athletes' reasons will then matter.

Personally, if they are going to change their minds, I hope they change it to say "No Russian athletes in any Olympic sporting events until Russia is out of Ukraine and makes reparations."

Does that Ukraine include crimea? I can’t find an answer because if that Ukraine includes crimea Russia will never be In an Olympics ever again

 

[airgelaal]

Does that Ukraine include crimea? I can’t find an answer

?!
Crimea is Ukraine

 

[caseyedwards]

?!
Crimea is Ukraine

Russia is never giving it back

 

[thvu]

What do B&K have to do with this discussion?

Since you’ve asked for me to spell it out…

• You’re expressing an opinion, which either means you’re trying to convince or you’re just here to pontificate. Your continuing to argue implies the former (if I’m being generous.)
• If the former, the quality of your previous opinions and arguments is relevant.
• You’re proud of your B&K Riverdance avatar, which implies at minimum you’re a B&K fan generally, and likely implies you’re a fan of the program.
• Their Riverdance FD was probably the most unworthy world medal winning program since the 70s (and yes, I’m including Grushina & Goncharov’s medals). In no way was this program competitive. It was full of open holds, posing, and had one difficult step in the entire program.
• So, you’re proud of this avatar. What about that program made you proud? The absurd simplicity? His stiff back? Her terrible posture? Their whining about feeling cheated? Its only redeeming qualities are unintended (more below).
• So, this opinion, this value of proudly displaying B&K’s Riverdance calls into question your taste, judgement, and basic understanding about Ice Dance. It’s so out there, that it causes me to question your general discernment. This should lead you back to my original comment on this thread.

The only things that made Riverdance worth while are that it’s so bad it’s fun to make fun of, and that Oksana Grishuk said she could learn the program in a day.

 

[Alilou]

Russia is never giving it back

Ah, so you admit it is part of Ukraine.

 

[airgelaal]

Russia is never giving it back

Good luck to her

 

[MacMadame]

Does that Ukraine include crimea? I can’t find an answer because if that Ukraine includes crimea Russia will never be In an Olympics ever again

What does it matter? The IOC is run by a bunch of craven and corrupt bureaucrats who bow down to Russia at every opportunity.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

We're also not seeing attrocities committed by Ukranian soldiers on Russian soldiers.

I honestly can’t believe you type this stuff out and post it for people to have to read. Your concern is whether the people being invaded and murdered are nice enough to the people invading and killing them? And if not, what, they deserve it?

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

Since you’ve asked for me to spell it out…

• You’re expressing an opinion, which either means you’re trying to convince or you’re just here to pontificate. Your continuing to argue implies the former (if I’m being generous.)
• If the former, the quality of your previous opinions and arguments is relevant.
• You’re proud of your B&K Riverdance avatar, which implies at minimum you’re a B&K fan generally, and likely implies you’re a fan of the program.
• Their Riverdance FD was probably the most unworthy world medal winning program since the 70s (and yes, I’m including Grushina & Goncharov’s medals). In no way was this program competitive. It was full of open holds, posing, and had one difficult step in the entire program.
• So, you’re proud of this avatar. What about that program made you proud? The absurd simplicity? His stiff back? Her terrible posture? Their whining about feeling cheated? Its only redeeming qualities are unintended (more below).
• So, this opinion, this value of proudly displaying B&K’s Riverdance calls into question your taste, judgement, and basic understanding about Ice Dance. It’s so out there, that it causes me to question your general discernment. This should lead you back to my original comment on this thread.

The only things that made Riverdance worth while are that it’s so bad it’s fun to make fun of, and that Oksana Grishuk said she could learn the program in a day.

Thanks for spelling it out. My avatar is the moment between Shae and Victor. I remember it well, and yeah I cried. Crummy FD, but amazing people that overcame a lot of obstacles to get that medal.