Tonya Harding

[olympic]

The Nicole Bobek thread made me think about the unavoidable comparison to perhaps the biggest talent who was her own worst enemy - Miss Harding

Same question. If Tonya had been focused and nailing her programs from 90-92, behaving herself, would she have been the #1 U.S. lady? 1991 World Champion? 1992 Olympic champion?

At 1991 Worlds in the LP, Kristi popped (?) the 3S but was otherwise clean and Tonya blew her 3-3 after a beautiful 3A. I'm not sure how far apart the judge's placed them but could Tonya have won? National and International judges seemed to judge her on a different scale pre-whack. In the 91 Worlds SP, I think the judges were more generous than National judges: YUG and CHN judges gave her 5.9 for artistic impression. Maybe they had a little more respect for her edges, speed and power?

Could a 1991 win have shown the USFSA that the ISU approved (if she could win) and given her any momentum for 1992? Her programs were better in 1992 but maybe the Olympic crown was reserved for princesses of a certain comportment.

I have no doubt that she would have stayed ahead of Nancy.

What do you think?

 

[Yazmeen]

The Nicole Bobek thread made me think about the unavoidable comparison to perhaps the biggest talent who was her own worst enemy - Miss Harding

Same question. If Tonya had been focused and nailing her programs from 90-92, behaving herself, would she have been the #1 U.S. lady? 1991 World Champion? 1992 Olympic champion?

At 1991 Worlds in the LP, Kristi popped (?) the 3S but was otherwise clean and Tonya blew her 3-3 after a beautiful 3A. I'm not sure how far apart the judge's placed them but could Tonya have won? National and International judges seemed to judge her on a different scale pre-whack. In the 91 Worlds SP, I think the judges were more generous than National judges: YUG and CHN judges gave her 5.9 for artistic impression. Maybe they had a little more respect for her edges, speed and power?

Could a 1991 win have shown the USFSA that the ISU approved (if she could win) and given her any momentum for 1992? Her programs were better in 1992 but maybe the Olympic crown was reserved for princesses of a certain comportment.

I have no doubt that she would have stayed ahead of Nancy.

What do you think?

I honestly believe that if Midori and Tonya had hit all their triple axels and skated clean, they would have gone 1-2 in the Olympics, but I believe Midori would have had the gold. Kristi would have likely gotten the bronze, gone on to 1994, and had a good chance of winning there. As much as I'm a Nancy fan, she might have medaled in 1994 in this scenario.

That was always the big "if" with Tonya - buckling down, practicing consistently, and not letting her big mouth and stupid antics get in her way. The US unfortunately had 3 very talented skaters who essentially threw away potential Olympic and World Championship medals for their particular vices and well, frankly, laziness: Tonya, Christopher Bowman, and Nicole Bobek. Oh, what could have been if they had the mindset of a Kristi Yamaguchi, Brian Boitano, or Michelle Kwan...

 

[canbelto]

I don;t think Tonya was ever consistent enough with her triple axel to beat Midori or Kristi. Of course one wonders if she had been more disciplined with training whether she could have developed that consistency.

Still today whenever I watch Tonya Harding I marvel at how perfect her jumps were from a technical standpoint. Always the correct edge takeoff, beautiful height and travel.

 

[VGThuy]

I always thought Midori and Tonya made the judges’ lives easier by skating their SPs the way they did. Albertville could have been an amazing competition but alas....

 

[Vagabond]

The Nicole Bobek thread made me think about the unavoidable comparison to perhaps the biggest talent who was her own worst enemy - Miss Harding

Same question. If Tonya had been focused and nailing her programs from 90-92, behaving herself, would she have been the #1 U.S. lady? 1991 World Champion? 1992 Olympic champion?

Same answer. You are asking about a total different person from the actual Tonya Harding. I don't think she had that much room for focusing any more than she did, though, given that she had to deal with an abusive husband and an abusive mother.

ETA: And to give credit where credit is due, she could do a triple lutz without a mule kick or a change of edge on the entry.

 

[meggonzo]

For anyone interested in a nuanced view on Tonya's circumstances, I recently listened to the You're Wrong About podcast episodes on Tonya that were recorded in 2019.

You're Wrong About

Listen to You're Wrong About on Pandora - Sarah is a journalist obsessed with the past. Every week she reconsiders a person or event that's been miscast in the public imagination.

www.stitcher.com

You're Wrong About

Listen to You're Wrong About on Pandora - Sarah is a journalist obsessed with the past. Every week she reconsiders a person or event that's been miscast in the public imagination.

www.stitcher.com

 

[MacMadame]

Could a 1991 win have shown the USFSA that the ISU approved (if she could win) and given her any momentum for 1992? Her programs were better in 1992 but maybe the Olympic crown was reserved for princesses of a certain comportment.

Kristi's team didn't consider her the anointed one for 1992. They were aiming for 1994. So I think if Tonya had buckled down, she could have beat Kristi in 1992.

One thing to keep in mind: Tonya skated at a mall rink. It was tiny and the ice was often chewed up. Even if she had buckled down, I think that would have limited her. (I skated at this rink once and my respect for her technical content shot up enormously.)

 

[AxelAnnie]

I am not sure they would have given Tonya anything, and there was nothing she can do about it. IIRC - she did not fit the "Princess" mold. Neither did Christi for a while because she is Asian.

 

[VGThuy]

She already got a national title, two actually.

 

[olympic]

I honestly believe that if Midori and Tonya had hit all their triple axels and skated clean, they would have gone 1-2 in the Olympics, but I believe Midori would have had the gold. Kristi would have likely gotten the bronze, gone on to 1994, and had a good chance of winning there. As much as I'm a Nancy fan, she might have medaled in 1994 in this scenario.

That was always the big "if" with Tonya - buckling down, practicing consistently, and not letting her big mouth and stupid antics get in her way. The US unfortunately had 3 very talented skaters who essentially threw away potential Olympic and World Championship medals for their particular vices and well, frankly, laziness: Tonya, Christopher Bowman, and Nicole Bobek. Oh, what could have been if they had the mindset of a Kristi Yamaguchi, Brian Boitano, or Michelle Kwan...

I started a thread a while ago about everyone skating clean in Albertville and it seemed the consensus was Kristi would have won on the 2nd mark. I also think Midori would have won and Tonya maybe second

 

[olympic]

Same answer. You are asking about a total different person from the actual Tonya Harding. I don't think she had that much room for focusing any more than she did, though, given that she had to deal with an abusive husband and an abusive mother.

ETA: And to give credit where credit is due, she could do a triple lutz without a mule kick or a change of edge on the entry.

Yes, but let’s say for the sake of argument that Tonya hit clean programs when it counted. Would she have been a winner

 

[Vagabond]

Yes, but let’s say for the sake of argument that Tonya hit clean programs when it counted. Would she have been a winner

What if counterfactual history were the accepted norm?

 

[VGThuy]

I will say this, when one re-watched 1991 Worlds and the 1992 Olympics and just compare the way Kristi skated and how she weaved in-and-out of elements, just her general smoothness, ease, and carriage makes a really huge difference in overall impression compared to Midori and Tonya. I always feel that in these discussions, that gets undermined or is overlooked. She really did have a proto-IJS like skating style and program compared to the more empty ones from most other skaters and it's to the point where it's almost Patrick Chan level in comparison to her competitors. Midori wasn't so bad actually, but Kristi's programs really did showcase her strengths. I don't think Tonya's did as much as there was a lot more posing and two-footed skating and just sloppiness throughout BUT with a 3 axel and a hit routine that could have been more than enough to narrow the gap. Plus, if Kristi skated the same way she did in Albertville and had Midori and Tonya been within reach of gold after the SP unlike the way it was in Albertville, I wonder if her scores would be the same. She almost received Kwan-in-Nagano-like scores despite her mistakes. Even if the scores were the same, we know Kwan-in-Nagano-like scores were beatable, especially with two skaters who were capable of scoring 5.9s and 6.0s in tech.

 

[Erin]

For anyone interested in a nuanced view on Tonya's circumstances, I recently listened to the You're Wrong About podcast episodes on Tonya that were recorded in 2019.

I'll second this recommendation - the episodes are long, but really good. The female host, Sarah Marshall, is clearly a huge Tonya fan (she has brought up Tonya in at least 10 or 15 episodes) and skating fan in general. She wrote a Tonya article a few years ago that was quite good, although it did meander a bit:

Home Page || Culture

Get the latest news and updates on art, literature, music, travel, and history in a fun and interesting way.

believermag.com

That article does have one glaring mistake, saying Nancy was hit on the left knee, which is corrected in the podcast, and there are a couple of other minor quibbles I have with the podcast, but they get most of it right. My favourite part is in the second episode when they are laughing at how incompetent Jeff and his hitmen are. But I also appreciated at the end, how they acknowledge that Tonya made a lot of bad decisions, but she is still deserving of empathy. I don't see her as, say, someone I would want to necessarily be friends with. But I can still feel for her as a human being.

I will say this, when one re-watched 1991 Worlds and the 1992 Olympics and just compare the way Kristi skated and how she weaved in-and-out of elements, just her general smoothness, ease, and carriage makes a really huge difference in overall impression compared to Midori and Tonya. I always feel that in these discussions, that gets undermined or is overlooked.

I think you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on Midori. I will grant that she was never particularly musical and I wish she had programs that better highlighted her strengths, but I still think her ability to move in and out of elements was ahead of her time. As for Tonya, I think that her abilities in these areas could come and go. I actually think one of the programs that best showed off her non-jump abilities was earlier in her career at 1987 NHK:

1987 NHK Tonya Harding SP

Tonya skates an amazing short program to beat Katarina Witt and take 2nd place behing Midori Ito. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Tonya was th...

www.youtube.com

The carriage is better than she showed later in her career, it's basically non-stop connecting steps, the spins are very good. It's one of my favourite skates from her.

Kind of unrelated, but a friend of mine who isn't on FSU has a theory that Tonya's 1991 short program is a Pride program - the rainbow outfit, skating to "Two Tribes" by Frankie Goes to Hollywood:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsPS1bhAj6c

I'm not entirely convinced, but maybe it could be adopted as one?

 

[VGThuy]

Midori actually was pretty amazing in that regard. I just think with Kristi showing even more flow, Midori's SS couldn't be as appreciated as much. It's kind like how Daisuke Takahashi or another skater had SS and ability to move well but then you see Patrick Chan and sort of forget that just because a skater doesn't hit that level doesn't make them deficient. Now, I'm not saying Kristi is Patrick Chan (she's not). But I do think the way they developed her skating and Bezic's choreography REALLY put that flow plus carriage into the forefront of her programs compared to her competition. Midori had great speed and was able to move in ways most champions can wish they could, but Kristi was just weaving in-and-out in an almost IJS way.

As for Tonya, I really do blame Jeff and just having a lack of true support system and having a truly reprehensible mother and bad home life catching up to her. Had her skating continued to develop in the vein of that SP you linked, Tonya would have definitely closed up the gap and people would even say she was "artistic". I think 3A distracted Tonya from developing her skills further, and I bet everyone, including Diane Rawlinson, constantly telling her what she needed to do maximize her scores and skating level started to just sound like people telling her to be a different person and that would grate on me too. If her mom was constantly criticizing her as well, I can definitely see Tonya deciding to just go her own way even to her detriment. I wonder if Jeff was feeding her things she wanted to hear which helped motivate her to jump into his arms. However, the Tonya people fell in love with was the Tonya that went her own way and had programs that we all remember from her.

 

[Artistic Skaters]

Article about the Shane Stant documentary:

A notorius ice skating hitman finds redemption through his sister's eyes

In 1994, hitman Shane Stant hit U.S. Figure Skating Champion Nancy Kerrigan in her knee to prevent her from competing a championship/

kslnewsradio.com

A new documentary, “My Hero, the Hitman” looks at how Stant has changed since the attack and how he is perceived through the eyes of his sister, Maile Stant. Maile was only three years old when her brother hit Kerrigan’s knee to prevent her from competing in the U.S. National Championship.

When Stant got out of prison in 1995, Maile was five years old — too young to understand the event that jailed her brother. Or, that he was a hitman. She only knew him as a loving protector from a father described as abusive.

 

[livetoskate]

Article about the Shane Stant documentary:

A notorius ice skating hitman finds redemption through his sister's eyes

In 1994, hitman Shane Stant hit U.S. Figure Skating Champion Nancy Kerrigan in her knee to prevent her from competing a championship/

kslnewsradio.com

Interesting that someone made a documentary about Stant and his sister. I thought he had died.

 

[pixie cut]

Interesting that someone made a documentary about Stant and his sister. I thought he had died.

That's Shawn Eckhardt, the "body guard." He died in 2007. Shane Stant was interviewed by a couple of outlets around the time I, Tonya was released.

 

[Bouffantrex]

For all you Tonya fans out there, I noticed she's hawking limited edition "God Bless" tshirts on her instagram. Get 'em before they're gone.

 

[Winnipeg]

Right, I'll get right on that.

 

[overedge]

I can't figure out if that shirt is supposed to be "God bless the US" or "God bless Tonya"

 

[SkateGuard]

So this is a thing...

Tonya Harding's 1994 Olympic short program dress is up for auction:

Tonya Harding’s Olympic dress is at auction, estimated to go for $50K

The dress was worn the day after Nancy Kerrigan's assault and during the 1994 Olympics in Norway.

www.oregonlive.com

 

[Lynn226]

This article says the consigner wants to be anonymous. There's also a signed letter from Harding authenticating the dress.

Did she previously sell and authenticate the dress?

Tonya Harding’s Olympic dress is at auction, estimated to go for $50K

The dress was worn the day after Nancy Kerrigan's assault and during the 1994 Olympics in Norway.

www.oregonlive.com

 

[SkateGuard]

This article says the consigner wants to be anonymous. There's also a signed letter from Harding authenticating the dress.

Did she previously sell and a authenticate the dress?

Tonya Harding’s Olympic dress is at auction, estimated to go for $50K

The dress was worn the day after Nancy Kerrigan's assault and during the 1994 Olympics in Norway.

www.oregonlive.com

It's entirely possible that she did. The dress Debi Thomas wore on the cover of "Time" magazine in 1988 is in this auction as well:

Lelands.com

auction.lelands.com

 

[Simone411]

Here's a video on YouTube about it from Central Oregon Daily News.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgfYTsWJQVw

 

[Aussie Willy]

Diamonds shapes as skirts were big back then.

 

[livetoskate]

This article says the consigner wants to be anonymous. There's also a signed letter from Harding authenticating the dress.

Did she previously sell and authenticate the dress?

Tonya Harding’s Olympic dress is at auction, estimated to go for $50K

The dress was worn the day after Nancy Kerrigan's assault and during the 1994 Olympics in Norway.

www.oregonlive.com

The article thinks the dress is worth 50k? I'd love to see what they actually sell for. There are no bids so far on Debi Thomas's gold dress; starting bid is $300. The question is-- who would want these dresses from decades ago?

 

[Simone411]

The article thinks the dress is worth 50k? I'd love to see what they actually sell for. There are no bids so far on Debi Thomas's gold dress; starting bid is $300. The question is-- who would want these dresses from decades ago?

Yes, that's it. Decades old equals dry rot. Personally, I wouldn't bid for one. I have to think about inflation and save my money for things like buying groceries and paying bills.

Buying a dry rotted dress for 50k just doesn't foot the bill for me.

 

[Karen-W]

Yes, that's it. Decades old equals dry rot. Personally, I wouldn't bid for one. I have to think about inflation and save my money for things like buying groceries and paying bills.

Buying a dry rotted dress for 50k just doesn't foot the bill for me.

Possibly. I'd guess it depends on how well-kept the dress was. If was properly stored, the material would likely still be in decent condition. I've seen dresses 30-40 years old that are in great, wearable condition still.

 

[Simone411]

Possibly. I'd guess it depends on how well-kept the dress was. If was properly stored, the material would likely still be in decent condition. I've seen dresses 30-40 years old that are in great, wearable condition still.

That's right. It does depend on how well-kept it was. And if it wasn't well-kept, then it's dry rotted.

Even if well-kept, I'm afraid I still wouldn't buy a dress for 50k. With 50k, I would pay my bills, maybe buy something I personally want and give the rest to a homeless shelter.

I would want to figure out what would I do with an old skating dress worth 50k? Look at it? That's just me. I would rather help others if I had 50k.