The Stationary Lift

skatingguy

Golden Team
Messages
7,957
I think it's more than a little odd that the commentator and people here on FSU in the PBP saw the mistake right away, and the coaches didn't. Usually when the skaters make a mistake, they may not know it, but the coaches do. These coaches looked dumbfounded. Patrice is supposed to be the technical one who knows all the rules? But he looked clueless. If these were my coaches, I'd be a little concerned about that.
Keep in mind that the coaches were at ice level at one end of the arena and the lift was occurring at centre ice. The judging panel, and the cameras looking down on their position during the lift had a much better view then anyone standing at ice level.
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,362
It was interesting watching the whole thing on TV. The whole performance looked a bit ragged to me, not just the lift. I was surprised that Madison said she was very happy with the performance.

The commentator also said overall they looked slower than usual. They usually skate quite fast, but this time she felt they were noticeably slower around the rink. Did anyone see this live? Maybe they could comment.

They were as fast or faster than any of the other teams on the ice.

Madison didn't look happy to me when she finished the performance. She looked worried, though perhaps that is simply me imposing my own worries at the time onto her as the mistakes I noticed in live time were both hers (the loss of edge in the footwork and the stalled set of twizzles). They have had issues with executing the spin, though, so it's possible they were wondering about that. My guess is that she was not worried about the lift as they had never been called on it before.

It happens, especially when you rework a program. You don't know where the new hazard points might be, and sometimes it takes a few competitions to find out. (The lift is relatively new within their program, correct? They only put it in at the end of the regular GP season). Sometimes it takes a while before you run into the areas of concern with a new element. It's one of the reasons that it's a really good idea to skate a full season. There are so many aspects of a program. And people notice different things.

Anyway, this seems like a relatively easy fix. (Though what do I know? It would be impossible for me;)). My memory of their debut this season was that all of the elements felt recycled. I've appreciated the new lift both times I've seen it live. And the judges have appreciated it too. H&D just need to clean it up, which is pretty much the norm with new elements. (Sometimes it takes a long time for teams to do that with new lifts; but in this case I would think doable with more focus).
 

Barbara Manatee

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,532
It was interesting watching the whole thing on TV. The whole performance looked a bit ragged to me, not just the lift.

I watched the NBCSN coverage and neither Tanith or Charlie commented on the lift live. They both seemed underwhelmed by the performance, though. He pointed out several technical mistakes with the footwork and twizzles, and she felt that Madi and Zach didn't skate with the abandon or drama the program needed.

So yeah, it wasn't only the stationary lift that was an issue. Maybe they were simply tired and flat after nationals, but I hope they don't put all their focus on fixing the lift and ignore the other problems.
 

thvudragon

Usova's Apprentice
Messages
5,032
We finally got to watch the 4CC dance on TV. For what it's worth the Japanese commentator said the problem with the spin was his position. You have to maintain the correct camel position for 2 full rotations and he didn't. He goes into it in the correct position, but then he dips his leg a bit or does something that negates the position for a part of the rotations, so he doesn't complete 2 full rotations while maintaining the correct camel position.
This is essentially my conclusion, lack of rotations on the camel. Though, I see it as Donohue not achieving a maintained parallel or higher leg position in time, therefore only completing a little over 1.5 rotations before transitioning into the sit positions. This causes them to not to have a difficult variation in a camel position, which precludes their dance spin from being called higher than Level 2.

At the Grand Prix Final, Donohue's free leg definitely dips below being parallel before "righting" himself. He only completes 1 full rotation of the difficult variation in the camel, explaining their Level 2 there. This same thing happened at 2018 Nationals and Donohue is just under the 2 rotations.
 

Wyliefan

Trying to appease the skategods
Messages
30,149
I watched the NBCSN coverage and neither Tanith or Charlie commented on the lift live.

Yes, that surprised me, although as you say, they did notice other problems. Even after the scores came up and Madison could be heard mentioning the base level for the lift, they didn't follow that up. But to be fair, they didn't have a lot of time to, as the broadcast ended very soon after that.
 

aftershocks

Banned Member
Messages
17,335
She looked worried, though perhaps that is simply me imposing my own worries at the time onto her

I didn't understand what happened with the lift, but now I do. As far as Madi looking worried, I thought they both looked nervous right from the beginning. They were skating last and the other top teams had all skated extremely well. In order to win, they needed to top their season's best by over a point, which was doable, but not a given. I didn't anticipate that H/D would falter, and I didn't notice any technical problems during the performance, so the judging was a surprise. I felt it would be close, but I didn't expect them to fall off the podium.

H/D knew how well Maddie/Evan's FD had been received at U.S. Nationals. So, surely they were nervous and a bit tight, which affected their performance execution. W/P and C/B are two veteran top rivals H/D have battled against for many years, but they hadn't met them on the GP or GPF this season. So they were being tested a bit more than they had been all season.
 

alain06fr

Well-Known Member
Messages
198
Because they were never in one lift long enough. Yes, Hubbell was lifted for > 5 seconds, but it was split between two different lifts. If Donohue was stationary for 5 seconds, it would have qualified them for a Level 1 Stationary, but he was not. Once he had directional momentum, that with the rotations created a rotational lift, which has different rules governing levels than the other lifts. Because the panel classified the lift as Stationary, only the parts where Donohue was stationary counted toward the "Lift" segment features. Everything else was considered as part of the entry and exit features, which essentially don't apply if a team doesn't have any "Lift" segment features.

Hummm…. Well... This assumes the lift is split in two sections as you initially stated:
1st section: Stationary (the longest part, which you estimated to 2/3 of the lift)
2nd section: Rotational (the shortest part, which you estimated to 1/3 of the lift)
 
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alain06fr

Well-Known Member
Messages
198
Okay @alain06fr , sure. I must wrong and the 4CC Technical panel must be wrong because you have questions to which you refuse to see the answer. :rolleyes:

I may be wrong but it seems that you're totally convinced the 4CC Tech Panel took the right decision by awarding a base value level to H/D's Stationary Lift. Well... Why not? I don't mind about that.

Furthermore, you took the time to provide a lot of details and you justify (or try to justify) the Tech Panel decision based on official documents such as Communication 2188 (among others). Thanks! This is great!

Now, this assumes this StaLi is split in 2 parts.
I am just trying to tell you "Are you 100% sure this StaLi breakdown matches your assumptions?"
Honestly, at this point, I am not sure about that and if not, then I hardly see how this StaLi could be awarded a base value level.
 

alain06fr

Well-Known Member
Messages
198
I get it @alain06fr , the world is wrong, the rules are wrong, the clarifications to the rules are wrong, and you are right. What a convenient way to filter the world. You’re clearly the type who only sees what he wants to see.

Obviously, the debate is not about the rules.

The debate is all about the perceived movement on the ice. You should be aware that this is the most critical part, to converge on some agreement about what happened during this pattern. Once the movement on the ice is clear enough then it's usually fine to apply the appropriate rules.

Several times, I told you that I had some doubts on your views about the break down of H/D's stationary lift. You see it in two parts (which may be the case) but I would rather see it differently. Strangely enough, you never asked me to share my opinion about this pattern. Aren't you interested in someone else opinion? Aren't you interested in looking at this lift from another angle? Unfortunately, it looks like your last email demonstrates your total lack of openness to other options. Still, there's no need to come up with caricatural statements like you did in your last post.

Too bad, there are several interesting things to share and debate about this lift (entry, change of pause, travelling and break down, exits, etc.) and not only from the Tech panel point of view but also from GOE scores (given the travelling... of course...). You have no clue whatsoever about what I potentially see in this lift. Given it's not worth to debate openly about this, I prefer to leave you with your certainties and let you continue to play the teacher. You know what? I don't care.

Anyhow, as maths teacher, you should know that, most of the time, the best ever reasoning whenever based on wrong assumptions leads to incorrect conclusions.

All the best!
 
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marbri

Hey, Kool-Aid!
Messages
13,339
Yeah, that could be the reason. Maybe they couldn't see the travelling from their angle.

I saw video of the lift from two angles. Can't provide links as I have no idea where they are now (so much has been deleted) but one is head on from judges side and the travel is obvious. The other from the short end and it isn't obvious.
 

marbri

Hey, Kool-Aid!
Messages
13,339
Fwiw, when Sinead Kerr was talking about the lift on that after show she mentioned it being short of rotations to be called a rotational lift which supports thvudragon's opinion of how it was viewed by the panel. As Kerr was there I can only assume the fact she even brought up the rotational lift angle was because they were told by that point what happened with the lift.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
34,112
From reports of those in the arena, it seems like the tech panel did not want to do what they did, but they felt they had no choice. It's clear that Zach traveled to the point where the tech panel could not ignore it. The basic value call meant that they did not consider Madison lifted for 5 whole seconds during whatever part they considered to be the stationary lift. It's also clear that they did not call the unintentional exit of the stationary lift where Zach moved a rotational lift and rather considered it more of an exit and Kerr's explanation that was due to lack of rotations would fit this theory. If Zach got more rotations in, well...the score would have been even more devastating.
 

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