The Skating Lesson

[On My Own]

I don’t find the podcast any more gossipy or snarky or smirky as a random PBP thread.

I actually have more of a problem with bitchy official commentary lol. Ultimately, TSL are (obnoxious) mega fans, who are running their own show It's not a job they have to do professionally, and I can and do ignore them overwhelmingly. But I always felt like most have the opposite issue, where they hate on TSL but go "yaaas" at the usual suspects, visible names, being assholes to their peers because they "spoke the truth" or whatever.

 

[Allskate]

Has anyone listened to the Paul Wylie interview from 3 weeks ago? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3jltH78pZw
Highlights from the 2.5-hour episode?

I listened last month. (No bitchiness!) I'm a big Paul Wylie skating fan. In fact, a Paul Wylie e-mail list was my introduction to online skating fandom.

I loved listening to the whole thing. It's hard to pick a highlight. It kind of depends on what you're interested in. Of course, he talked about the Olympics. Among other things, he talked about his discussion with a sports psychologist in between his Olympic short and long programs, which was very interesting. He also said he didn't like the ice at the Olympics. He also talked about Nancy Kerrigan a little, including their Miss Saigon program they did together at the Olympics exhibition (at the network's request) when they hadn't practiced it in a while. He seems to be more unhappy about her Olympic medal placement than his own, though lots of fans would disagree. He doesn't think his Olympic long program was his best.

One of the things I found interesting was that he compared how insular training is today compared to when he was young. He talked about how his coach would send him to see someone else to work on something in particular and that would not happen today. He thinks that spending two weeks working with John Curry critically changed his skating.

He talked about his choreography with Mary Scotvold. I wish he had been asked about the programs Lars Lubovitch choreographed for him, but he wasn't.

I hadn't known (or forgot) about the Salchow-Button-Petkevich-Wylie trophy he received and the plans to award that to skaters in the future.

He talked about his heart issues, including his sudden cardiac arrest and open heart surgery. He also mentioned that he had just seen Todd Sand.

He thinks the Code of Points makes programs too jam packed and too busy for a lot of skaters and he longs for a moment or spin or program of some simplicity. He calls it the tyranny of the difficult, but acknowledges that it works for a few skaters and finds the quads exciting. He feels bad for skaters today that they don't have the pro touring and pro competition opportunities he had, not because of the money but because of the kinds of experiences and skating he got to do; he would like to see today's skaters have the opportunity to have the types of artistic programs skaters can do if they don't have to jam so much in.

 

[Frau Muller]

….

TSL need not worry about AnythingGOE. They have a committed fanbase and the alternative is quite vanilla and boring. They don't have a professional air about them in terms of running a consistent podcase without sound like naive children.

The one named Anne seems to have a professional air about her.

 

[rhapsody]

He's such a loser lol everyone should stop paying attention to him. I cringe so much with his ice dance recap, it's all vibes and not a single worthy insight.

I'm sorry they don't love CPom, but LBR, no one would give them a second look if it weren't for his last name. He can't bend his ankle and his injuries are so obvious. They were lucky H/B withdrew from Worlds because it'll probably be their only time there with Igor's Zingas/Kolesnik creeping up.

And that's the part of figure skating culture that I dislike.

I didn't say you had to like it. But as for why well known skaters go on his show... well there's your answer. They don't really see a problem with it because they've been surrounded by it in rinks and that is how they talk. I mean if one thinks Alissa is mean because she said she didn't like Loena's program... maybe enter the real world? She literally said it in the nicest way-- she didn't like the program. Period. I think Loena is tough enough to not give a shit, no? We are allowed to have opinions-- I want to hear people's honest opinion not just lie because it may hurt the feefees of online fans. The posts here are way meaner than anything Alissa said.

I think someone up said maybe they aren't familiar with the style of his show. I think it's more insulting to insinuate that the skaters don't know better. I think Sandra Bezic knows better (and he definitely voices his snarky opinions with her too) and still goes on.

As for ignoring certain skaters, it's been mostly the pairs field which let's be honest, have been abysmal since last year.

 

[ccpompom]

I'm sorry they don't love CPom, but LBR, no one would give them a second look if it weren't for his last name. He can't bend his ankle and his injuries are so obvious. They were lucky H/B withdrew from Worlds because it'll probably be their only time there with Igor's Zingas/Kolesnik creeping up.



I didn't say you had to like it. But as for why well known skaters go on his show... well there's your answer. They don't really see a problem with it because they've been surrounded by it in rinks and that is how they talk. I mean if one thinks Alissa is mean because she said she didn't like Loena's program... maybe enter the real world? She literally said it in the nicest way-- she didn't like the program. Period. I think Loena is tough enough to not give a shit, no? We are allowed to have opinions-- I want to hear people's honest opinion not just lie because it may hurt the feefees of online fans. The posts here are way meaner than anything Alissa said.

I think someone up said maybe they aren't familiar with the style of his show. I think it's more insulting to insinuate that the skaters don't know better. I think Sandra Bezic knows better (and he definitely voices his snarky opinions with her too) and still goes on.

As for ignoring certain skaters, it's been mostly the pairs field which let's be honest, have been abysmal since last year.

So now you're saying Anthony can't bend his ankle? Lmao get some original thoughts. It's pathetic you're repeating the same bs of some people that know noting about ice dance. Its embarrassing honestly

 

[tony]

So now you're saying Anthony can't bend his ankle? Lmao get some original thoughts. It's pathetic you're repeating the same bs of some people that know noting about ice dance. Its embarrassing honestly

How many people actually do know something about ice dance though, even here on FSU? There are so many longtime fans of the sport who have never once opened the rulebook and still don't know anything about the requirements for elements. They don't know the difference between a rocker and a counter. They don't know how elements are scored and repeatedly make absurd comments such as 'well even with the negative GOE they still could've given them a level 4' as if the rules for achieving a level are out the window.

TSL was at one time accredited. They are not anymore, and their opinions are no different than the opinions of someone on FSU. Even if they were accredited, they could still have strong opinions that people don't agree with.

And I do agree that any venture into the PBP threads or the ice dance hall thread, you'd see more of the same (if not more) snarks and complete misunderstanding of how quantitative aspects of the sport are judged.

 

[morqet]

@tony while I completely agree with your overall point about the majority of dance fans not understanding most of the technical requirements, having negative GOE on an element while still fulfilling the requirements for a level 4 is perfectly plausible

Whether most people could tell you why it should be a level 4 is another question!

 

[Karen-W]

The irony of the TSL sniping on Anthony nowadays is that before they moved to IAM-London and he had his surgery, Christina was perceived as the weaker half of the duo.

My issue with TSL is that I find their POV (mostly DL) to be rather superficial and covered in a thin veneer of technical knowledge of the sport. DL especially, feeds off the bitchy drama of the sport behind the scenes and revels in presenting himself as an insider, but it's pretty evident that he'll turn on you if you don't provide him access. Witness how he was gushing about Malinin in the spring of 2022 and got an exclusive interview with Ilia, but after the family obviously got warned off of TSL by others, he's become a huge critic of Ilia.

Once you cotton on to his prejudices and biases, it's hard to take him seriously.

 

[tony]

@tony while I completely agree with your overall point about the majority of dance fans not understanding most of the technical requirements, having negative GOE on an element while still fulfilling the requirements for a level 4 is perfectly plausible

Whether most people could tell you why it's should be a level 4 is another question!

Of course it is, but I’m saying that people using this argument don’t understand that the top levels are not just thrown out because the skaters got through the element there is a substantial bit of criteria that has to be reach for such, rather than saying ‘it wasn’t a meltdown. You get a level 4! You get a level 4!’

 

[Rukia]

I mean the thing is, clearly some people love dl or he couldn't keep going. I guess if that's your thing, then go enjoy it. But I'm never going to get worked up over his opinions on any skating, much less ice dance, any more than I would if someone on here said it.

...at least that's my zen viewership goal that works like 85% of the time in practice lol. And idk what this says about me but brackets and counters are some of my favorite moves to do.

 

[litenkyckling]

I think that the part about TSL that isn’t really for me is that they are snarky for the sake of it and honestly a bit nasty sometimes. Criticism is totally ok! It’s a judged sport so of course that comes with criticism. However being actively horrible about people isn’t really it.

I do agree on the ice dance point - how I miss Flutzes and Waxels - their ice dance discussion was always so detailed and nuanced and they never missed any team out. I always came away feeling like if learned more about the tech side (there’s only so much that reading the handbook can teach you).

I also find TSL incredibly self absorbed. I don’t like that DL makes it all about him all the time and the way he speaks over people annoys me. I think JB holds back his true options sometimes.

 

[sap5]

Because he talks like the skaters, coaches, and judges themselves talk about their peers and themselves. Sorry to burst people's bubble, but skaters and people in the sport are not all buddy, buddy and sunshine and rainbows. They're snarky, bitchy, and envious.

Not everyone in FS talks like this, and people perpetuating this myth is damaging to the sport. Thank goodness some people in FS are beginning to be more vocal in their efforts to change both this myth and the dynamic.

There is a difference between giving honest opinions and outright smearing skaters -- and Dave does both. I'd like to see more of the first and less of the latter.

ETA: "smearing skaters" maybe is too strong, but I'm not a fan of the way he spreads gossip and comments on skaters' body parts that a skater cannot change and/or have no real bearing on their actual skating.

 

[sap5]

I think that the part about TSL that isn’t really for me is that they are snarky for the sake of it and honestly a bit nasty sometimes. Criticism is totally ok! It’s a judged sport so of course that comes with criticism. However being actively horrible about people isn’t really it.

I do agree on the ice dance point - how I miss Flutzes and Waxels - their ice dance discussion was always so detailed and nuanced and they never missed any team out. I always came away feeling like if learned more about the tech side (there’s only so much that reading the handbook can teach you).

I also find TSL incredibly self absorbed. I don’t like that DL makes it all about him all the time and the way he speaks over people annoys me. I think JB holds back his true options sometimes.

I really disliked Flutzes and Waxels, tbh. Their technical discussion was okay, but they'd have obsessive opinions on programs that they'd bring up every time they saw the same program. They couldn't just let it go! It's a lot like FSU, but at least when reading this board, you don't have to hear the audio! Can you imagine how painful that would be!!

 

[On My Own]

Not everyone in FS talks like this, and people perpetuating this myth is damaging to the sport. Thank goodness some people in FS are beginning to be more vocal in their efforts to change both this myth and the dynamic.

They are saying that people like Sandra Bezic and Kurt Browning are used to people like Dave, not that everyone in FS is a jerk. I don't think Kurt can be called a jerk lol.

 

[NinjaTurtles]

All this talk of Dave being bitchy, let's not forget Aunt Joyce's Ice Cream Stand. I'm actually surprised he had 8M+ page views...indeed people like his content.

 

[Andora]

All this talk of Dave being bitchy, let's not forget Aunt Joyce's Ice Cream Stand. I'm actually surprised he had 8M+ page views...indeed people like his content.

I hate to admit how much I loved that "blog".

 

[Sarah]

I’ll start by saying I don’t watch TSL all the time. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don’t. But I appreciate it for what it is. It’s another options out there for folks wanting to find a podcast/YouTube channel covering figure skating. The best part? You don’t have to watch it! There have been many other recap shows/podcasts mentioned and I haven’t actually enjoyed any of them either. I have enjoyed some of TSL. Maybe I’m crazy. It doesn’t make me a Dave fan (or Dave hater), I just enjoy some of the content. I fast forward when it gets in the weeds, close out if it’s too snarky, or just don’t watch if I don’t want to. But I like some of the guests.

Anyway, we have options. Different folks like different things or styles.

 

[overedge]

Not everyone in FS talks like this, and people perpetuating this myth is damaging to the sport. Thank goodness some people in FS are beginning to be more vocal in their efforts to change both this myth and the dynamic.

There is a difference between giving honest opinions and outright smearing skaters -- and Dave does both. I'd like to see more of the first and less of the latter.

This. If the sport has a toxic culture (which IMO it does) coverage of the sport doesn't have to be toxic too.

 

[rhapsody]

So now you're saying Anthony can't bend his ankle? Lmao get some original thoughts. It's pathetic you're repeating the same bs of some people that know noting about ice dance. Its embarrassing honestly

His injuries are obvious. It doesn't make him a bad person because he's literally digressed and it doesn't make anyone pathetic to point it out. Sorry for hurting your feelings.

The irony of the TSL sniping on Anthony nowadays is that before they moved to IAM-London and he had his surgery, Christina was perceived as the weaker half of the duo.

My issue with TSL is that I find their POV (mostly DL) to be rather superficial and covered in a thin veneer of technical knowledge of the sport. DL especially, feeds off the bitchy drama of the sport behind the scenes and revels in presenting himself as an insider, but it's pretty evident that he'll turn on you if you don't provide him access. Witness how he was gushing about Malinin in the spring of 2022 and got an exclusive interview with Ilia, but after the family obviously got warned off of TSL by others, he's become a huge critic of Ilia.

Once you cotton on to his prejudices and biases, it's hard to take him seriously.

How is it ironic if it's true though? Anthony used to be the better skater until his injuries set him back. Now Christina is better. Do you think people should voice an opinion once and never change it? That's so narrow minded. He also said similar things about Sinitsina and Katsalapov where Nikita was the stronger partner at first but over time, Viktoria improved so much that she turned out to be the better skater by the time Beijing rolled around.

Also, DL literally said in the SkAm episode (or Patreon, don't remember) that Malinin had the potential to be an even bigger star to the public than Nathan Chen. I don't know if I agree but he certainly hasn't turned on him and he was complimenting the improvement in his edge quality and said Malinin's programs were perfect vehicles for him. So maybe don't just pull stuff out of thin air unless you listen?

 

[Wyliefan]

His injuries are obvious. It doesn't make him a bad person because he's literally digressed and it doesn't make anyone pathetic to point it out. Sorry for hurting your feelings.

The fact that Carreira/Ponomarenko just got a score that came within half a point of their personal best hardly suggests that they've regressed (not "digressed"). As I'm sure you know, Anthony had surgery for those injuries and has recovered very well, so your observations aren't just mean, they're obsolete.

 

[Rukia]

All this talk of Dave being bitchy, let's not forget Aunt Joyce's Ice Cream Stand. I'm actually surprised he had 8M+ page views...indeed people like his content.

lol I always forget about that. I didn't like his style then either, but he was very popular.

 

[tony]

The fact that Carreira/Ponomarenko just got a score that came within half a point of their personal best hardly suggests that they've regressed (not "digressed"). As I'm sure you know, Anthony had surgery for those injuries and has recovered very well, so your observations aren't just mean, they're obsolete.

I think people are allowed to have observations that don't line up with the scoring. I mean look at the Russians-- would you have ever applied their scores to 'well clearly they are getting better, look how their score is so close!' ? I don't think so. You already know how I feel about certain skaters not being able to rotate triples and technical panels inexcusably look the other way.

I'm setting myself up for disaster but Christina is so spot-on and technically proficient almost always now, that Anthony's lack of stability throughout many of the elements really is glaring for me. I think he's wobbly or not so confident on his edges and they aren't very deep the majority of the time. Can he improve? Yes. But sometimes reading the dissertations here (especially when it comes to US dance teams), I feel like I'm in an alternate reality from what I saw

Now I'll surely listen to how I'm completely wrong.

 

[rhapsody]

The fact that Carreira/Ponomarenko just got a score that came within half a point of their personal best hardly suggests that they've regressed (not "digressed"). As I'm sure you know, Anthony had surgery for those injuries and has recovered very well, so your observations aren't just mean, they're obsolete.

Decent point but I'll wait until they compete at a competition that isn't a Senior B alongside higher level skaters like at a Grand Prix. With your opinion, I guess Davis/Smolkin are becoming better and better because they're scoring higher. I still stand by my opinion that Christina has become the better skater of the two. And if you think my posts were "mean" well damn... I guess any opinion that isn't gushing is unacceptable here.

Thanks for the vocab correction.

 

[Wyliefan]

You're quite welcome.

 

[Rukia]

I think people are allowed to have observations that don't line up with the scoring. I mean look at the Russians-- would you have ever applied their scores to 'well clearly they are getting better, look how their score is so close!' ? I don't think so. You already know how I feel about certain skaters not being able to rotate triples and technical panels inexcusably look the other way.

I'm setting myself up for disaster but Christina is so spot-on and technically proficient almost always now, that Anthony's lack of stability throughout many of the elements really is glaring for me. I think he's wobbly or not so confident on his edges and they aren't very deep the majority of the time.

Now I'll surely listen to how I'm completely wrong.

I will present you with a powerpoint presentation in the morning

(although tbf I think he's improved some this season but yeah she's the much more proficient skater at this point)

 

[Wyliefan]

I'm not saying C/P are perfect and I'm not denying that Christina has become the stronger of the two. But "no one would give them a second look if it weren't for his last name" (per @rhapsody)? Really?

There's constructive criticism, and then there's fact-free gross hyperbole. I have no problem with the first.

 

[rhapsody]

I'm not saying C/P are perfect and I'm not denying that Christina has become the stronger of the two. But "no one would give them a second look if it weren't for his last name" (per @rhapsody)? Really?

There's constructive criticism, and then there's fact-free gross hyperbole. I have no problem with the first.

Fair enough-- my bad for that comment.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

wrong thread

 

[dogbert]

This one was fun to listen! At one point Kurt joined in the conversation.

And did not stick around - he made a cameo appearance. I suspect there is a reason for that.

 

[dogbert]

I wonder how familiar these skaters actually are with him. They may see his more genial nature when he's getting them to come on the show, but just watching a few minutes, it's clear that Alissa doesn't watch that much skating and only watched some of SA for the discussion but probably wouldn't have done it otherwise. I think he has plenty of "regulars", but a lot of the time some of the people he gets on the show aren't familiar with any skating that doesn't have anything to do with them.

Pretty clear that Lease carefully cultivates relationships and is good friends with many skating insiders who feed him info and gossip. Czisny seems to be one of them. At one point during that interview in discussing Ilia Mailinin and his music choices (around 11:00 minute mark) Lease calls Czisny "the Queen of Quiet Shade" and she giggles - which speaks volumes.