The Skating Lesson 2018/2019

[wickedwitch]

Most of you had no effing clue how the scoring system worked, along comes Dave.

Who is the "you" here? Because I can't imagine this statement applies to most fans on this board.

 

[tony]

It’s unfortunate because be honest, would most of us know about safe sport if it weren’t for him? Most of you had no effing clue how the scoring system worked, along comes Dave.

Million dollars says when the dust settles, he will adjust his persona.

So, it sucks that his reality check had to come this way but to me, he needed to learn a bit of self-awareness. When you are the guy that came to be due to publishing horrible things about people as a result of your own insecurity, pay the price.

To be fair, as passionate as Dave seemingly is about figure skating as a sport (as opposed to the storylines and behind-the-scenes antics), for the first 4 or so years of TSL, he (and Jenny) spent a long time complaining about IJS and how they didn't get a lot of things and most of the critiquing seemed to be more about every other aspect of the skater- on and off the ice. That's where he ran into his first problems IMO.

Following 2013 Worlds, I wrote a piece about how I felt the GOE system needed to be changed to include more numbers, with all GOE's following the same % increments, much like it now is in the 2019 season. Jenny brought this up and Dave laughed it off in one of the videos, saying we didn't need more numbers or something to that extent. They did a lot of talking, but from the bits I saw, it always referred back to the 90's or 6.0 or personal opinions/tangents that meant nothing as far as the skating went.

Jonathan is also delusional if he thinks most celebrities love the TMZ/Perez Hilton types.

 

[Colonel Green]

Had he been nicer all these years, this fallout would NOT be occurring because people would respect him

Readily disproved by Christine Brennan getting the exact same backlash.

 

[jl22aries]

Celebrities have direct relationships with TMX/Perez Hilton types. It's a very evolved ecosystem. Let's reconsider calling Jonathan delusional. Even if you disagree with him.

 

[tony]

Celebrities have direct relationships with TMX/Perez Hilton types. It's a very evolved ecosystem. Let's reconsider calling Jonathan delusional. Even if you disagree with him.

They may have good relationships if the stories they agree to feature are positive. And who knows, they may play nice with these types so they don’t get anything published too negatively- I’d guess it’s more that than anyone actually having a good relationship with those people.

My whole point is that he couldn’t take the heat when confronted about the continuous negative message he was a part of. So his whole ‘this would never happen in theater, I would never react so poorly to a negative review’ thing is pointless. He already cried in a bathroom and let everyone know about it because two coaches didn’t want to give him the time of day when he wanted to be friends.

 

[jl22aries]

If they need to take a break or draw a boundary in order to practice self care, I hope the community around them can respond with compassion and support. We can all imagine the mental toll of "heat" from the world. It ain't easy getting through the days. Everyone has different boundaries. It's not easy naming those boundaries, and not easy asserting them. So whatever they need to do to be healthy and well, kudos.

 

[laviemn]

They may have good relationships if the stories they agree to feature are positive. And who knows, they may play nice with these types so they don’t get anything published too negatively- I’d guess it’s more that than anyone actually having a good relationship with those people.

My whole point is that he couldn’t take the heat when confronted about the continuous negative message he was a part of. So his whole ‘this would never happen in theater, I would never react so poorly to a negative review’ thing is pointless. He already cried in a bathroom and let everyone know about it because two coaches didn’t want to give him the time of day when he wanted to be friends.

I think you taking a situation that involves sexual misconduct allegations, suicide, and death threats as an opportunity to complain about pettier, less serious incidents like the Ade and Ward fight is really inappropriate.

For people who think that reporting sexual abuse will not result in serious, violent threats and harassment as long as you're unfailingly kind and polite, may I remind you that Christine Blasey Ford is still not able to return to work or move back into her home.

 

[sam-skwantch]

Oops

 

[tony]

I think you taking a situation that involves sexual misconduct allegations, suicide, and death threats as an opportunity to complain about pettier, less serious incidents like the Ade and Ward fight is really inappropriate.

For people who think that reporting sexual abuse will not result in serious, violent threats and harassment as long as you're unfailingly kind and polite, may I remind you that Christine Blasey Ford is still not able to return to work or move back into her home.

I’m saying that Jonathan’s arguments that he has shared in the last 24 or so hours make no sense. He’s the one resorting to saying that stuff. Check for yourself. He isn’t sticking to the death threats stories— he’s moved on to how it is just mind-boggling to have skaters not like what they say.

I already said twice in this thread that I don’t have any problem with Dave’s posting a screen shot of the SafeSport page. I’ve also stated in this thread that I do have a problem with people seeing him as ‘the only one’ who will discuss these issues, but then he alludes to knowing more, such as judges being mad, and doesn’t elaborate. That’s always been his method and most everyone knows this. And if you want to argue, see his snide comment regarding Vincent Restencourt just a few weeks before this. Casually bringing something up that may be similar in nature doesn’t come across as someone who really truly cares, but that’s my opinion.

I do feel bad if there were death threats, but once again- Jonathan’s coming across as having no understanding why skaters could ever be mad about what is being said because critiquing happens in other sports and in theater doesn’t make any sense. He knows what they were putting out there, he knows Jenny moved on because of it, he knows Dave has directly upset many people in the community with critiques that had NOTHING to do with what was happening on the ice, and so on.

 

[skateboy]

Jonathan’s coming across as having no understanding why skaters could ever be mad about what is being said because critiquing happens in other sports and in theater doesn’t make any sense.

Frankly, I stopped watching TSL shortly after Jonathan joined the team. He has garnered success as a classical singer, so kudos to him there. But, while he may be an avid FS fan, he has almost zero knowledge of the mechanics of skating and is not a skater himself. I have no interest in hearing his catty and snarky opinions on a source called "The Skating Lesson."

 

[MK's Winter]

Yeah, Jonathan Beyer's focus on social media yesterday seemed to less emphasize the death threats than he did the day before (which I don't doubt they are receiving) and more of on liking posters who say that skaters are just pissed off because "US skaters are spoiled and they don't realize that the show is not for THEM" and "you guys are not mean spirited, you are irreverent", which seems like an entirely different issue at hand. Maybe they want more skaters to be sticking up for them? But that take from them always just comes across as a bit deluded and doesn't take into account that they DO say very personal things (not about skating but making all of these deconstructions of the skaters psychologies and personalities in very nasty ways) on the show that didn't have anything to do with skating. And frankly, the fact that he was so thin skinned about it when confronted in person said a lot to me at the time.

But all of this is honestly besides the point, because I think this episode with TSL and SafeSport WAS one of the BETTER uses of TSL recently, definitely more of what I have liked about the show rather than disliked in the context of how the show was now compared to what is was like in the past. The fact that this was public on SafeSport and no one was talking about it/he was still doing seminars for skaters WAS an issue in my opinion that needed to be discussed. I remember a few years ago when Dave asked questions in the mixed zones at 2016 and 2017 nationals, and on the conference calls, and I thought his were honestly the best and most relevant questions. And I don't doubt that the USFS has been pissed off at them for very petty and juvenile reasons. I do think that the odds are that TSL will be back when things calm down, but who knows.

I think the conversation shifted to what was being asked. As far as people questioning the legitimacy of the death threats- he did a last minute cancellation for a flight, hotel, etc. that had to cost him money. He doesn’t get paid for this. And he wasn’t going to Nationals as a memeber of the press, he was going as a spectator.

To be fair, as passionate as Dave seemingly is about figure skating as a sport (as opposed to the storylines and behind-the-scenes antics), for the first 4 or so years of TSL, he (and Jenny) spent a long time complaining about IJS and how they didn't get a lot of things and most of the critiquing seemed to be more about every other aspect of the skater- on and off the ice. That's where he ran into his first problems IMO.

Following 2013 Worlds, I wrote a piece about how I felt the GOE system needed to be changed to include more numbers, with all GOE's following the same % increments, much like it now is in the 2019 season. Jenny brought this up and Dave laughed it off in one of the videos, saying we didn't need more numbers or something to that extent. They did a lot of talking, but from the bits I saw, it always referred back to the 90's or 6.0 or personal opinions/tangents that meant nothing as far as the skating went.

Jonathan is also delusional if he thinks most celebrities love the TMZ/Perez Hilton types.

editited because speaking out of annoyance is not helpful to the discussion.

I’m saying that Jonathan’s arguments that he has shared in the last 24 or so hours make no sense. He’s the one resorting to saying that stuff. Check for yourself. He isn’t sticking to the death threats stories— he’s moved on to how it is just mind-boggling to have skaters not like what they say.

I already said twice in this thread that I don’t have any problem with Dave’s posting a screen shot of the SafeSport page. I’ve also stated in this thread that I do have a problem with people seeing him as ‘the only one’ who will discuss these issues, but then he alludes to knowing more, such as judges being mad, and doesn’t elaborate. That’s always been his method and most everyone knows this. And if you want to argue, see his snide comment regarding Vincent Restencourt just a few weeks before this. Casually bringing something up that may be similar in nature doesn’t come across as someone who really truly cares, but that’s my opinion.

I do feel bad if there were death threats, but once again- Jonathan’s coming across as having no understanding why skaters could ever be mad about what is being said because critiquing happens in other sports and in theater doesn’t make any sense. He knows what they were putting out there, he knows Jenny moved on because of it, he knows Dave has directly upset many people in the community with critiques that had NOTHING to do with what was happening on the ice, and so on.

Out of curiosity do you discuss these issues on your show?

 

[laviemn]

I’ve also stated in this thread that I do have a problem with people seeing him as ‘the only one’ who will discuss these issues, but then he alludes to knowing more, such as judges being mad, and doesn’t elaborate.

Other than Brennan and Hersh, who else discusses controversial issues? Jackie Wong? Nick McCarvel? Skate Talk Online?

People say he's "the only one" because that's the literal truth. Any issues anyone has with the way he discusses these issues doesn't change that he's the only one who does it at all.

The past incidents you keep complaining about has nothing to do with why he deactivated his platforms, and for you to keep going on about them in the middle of this tragic mess gives a "He had it coming" impression to your posts.

 

[GullyGirl84]

I think the conversation shifted to what was being asked. As far as people questioning the legitimacy of the death threats- he did a last minute cancellation for a flight, hotel, etc. that had to cost him money. He doesn’t get paid for this. And he wasn’t going to Nationals as a memeber of the press, he was going as a spectator.


editited because speaking out of annoyance is not helpful to the discussion.



Out of curiosity do you discuss these issues on your show?

Just wanted to reiterate that I don't doubt they are getting death threats. And, I've seen some people point out that many YouTubers/maybe even other skaters get death threats on the regular, I do think that what they're getting (and Christine) is probably extra heinous, because someone actually died here-through absolutely no fault of their own.

I was just wondering why Jonathan was now talking about the other stuff, and I guessed that maybe they were disappointed that they personally weren't getting support in the skating community from people who agreed with them that publishing the SafeSport stuff was the right thing to do (it was).

 

[tony]

Out of curiosity do you discuss these issues on your show?

I haven’t had a show in a month or so. But my focus was on interviews and event reviews that stuck to the actual skating. Regarding Gracie Gold- I said only she could decide what was best for her career path. I never wanted to go for a speculative and gossipy show. I’d rather show a side-by-side comparison of Voronov’s two identical short programs this year than critique everything else about his life or appearance.

But since I sense some sarcasm with this, when I had a blog I was all over issues of a different nature and researched them, such as the Italian judge being recorded cheating and asked why nothing was being done about it. He ended up getting handed a hefty suspension.

None of us know any details past the SafeSport website mentioning and what Brennan has been able to find since the initial report. But Dave did share that he knows judges are mad, and he also told his listeners to ‘go look up’ someone else’s record. Maybe he really did care this time. But two or so months ago, that’s not exactly the tone he was giving. I guess it would be more understandable for me if he was consistent in showing concern for these things throughout the span of TSL.

Just curious, was anything mentioned about Andrew Lavrik? I truly don’t know.

Other than Brennan and Hersh, who else discusses controversial issues? Jackie Wong? Nick McCarvel? Skate Talk Online?

People say he's "the only one" because that's the literal truth. Any issues anyone has with the way he discusses these issues doesn't change that he's the only one who does it at all.

The past incidents you keep complaining about has nothing to do with why he deactivated his platforms, and for you to keep going on about them in the middle of this tragic mess gives a "He had it coming" impression to your posts.

Again, Jonathan is bringing them up as if he’s clueless as to why the skaters don’t really like them. Other people have pointed it out in this thread. If he kept the argument just about what caused TSL to go offline this week, fine. But he’s giving responses now that aren’t matching that narrative.

 

[skatfan]

Just curious, was anything mentioned about Andrew Lavrik? I truly don’t know.

Yes, he did mention it. He has skated in the same rink as Lavrik, from what I recall.

 

[MK's Winter]

I haven’t had a show in a month or so. But my focus was on interviews and event reviews that stuck to the actual skating. Regarding Gracie Gold- I said only she could decide what was best for her career path. I never wanted to go for a speculative and gossipy show. I’d rather show a side-by-side comparison of Voronov’s two identical short programs this year than critique everything else about his life or appearance.

But since I sense some sarcasm with this, when I had a blog I was all over issues of a different nature and researched them, such as the Italian judge being recorded cheating and asked why nothing was being done about it. He ended up getting handed a hefty suspension.

None of us know any details past the SafeSport website mentioning and what Brennan has been able to find since the initial report. But Dave did share that he knows judges are mad, and he also told his listeners to ‘go look up’ someone else’s record. Maybe he really did care this time. But two or so months ago, that’s not exactly the tone he was giving. I guess it would be more understandable for me if he was consistent in showing concern for these things throughout the span of TSL.

Just curious, was anything mentioned about Andrew Lavrik? I truly don’t know.



I’m not one for sarcasm. I asked because I was genuinely curious. And he did put up Andrew Lavrik’s case and discussed it. The difference with the reaction is that he isn’t as well known. And they few who did speak on it just assume because of Nikolai he is guilty.

I understand tone can be important. But I will never go as far as to question someone’s heart. Not even yours. I don’t know either of you like that. But it’s something I stand by when I talk to anyone. I prefer an honest approach when discussing all things. And it’s why I appreciate TSL. I don’t agree with all things said but I don’t take him as an individual with malice. All I am saying. And I can believe a judge being mad about this. I know what I have heard from my former coach. It’s very likely. I wouldn’t dismiss it is all. And again- he can’t put people who are telling him things. I think they do for a reason.

Edited because my response it all in the quoted part. I hate doing this from a cell sometimes.

 

[kittysk8ts]

I hate doing this from a cell sometimes.

I know you meant cell-ular, but this made me LOL.

 

[MK's Winter]

I know you meant cell-ular, but this made me LOL.

Your response just made my laugh and spit coffee all over the place because I get you.

 

[tony]

Sorry for those following and seeing me reiterate my thoughts in different words with every post.

I understand tone can be important. But I will never go as far as to question someone’s heart. Not even yours. I don’t know either of you like that. But it’s something I stand by when I talk to anyone. I prefer an honest approach when discussing all things. And it’s why I appreciate TSL. I don’t agree with all things said but I don’t take him as an individual with malice. All I am saying. And I can believe a judge being mad about this. I know what I have heard from my former coach. It’s very likely. I wouldn’t dismiss it is all. And again- he can’t put people who are telling him things. I think they do for a reason.

The thing is Dave and I had similar things going on almost 10 years ago already. I did more of a Jackie Wong-type of thing, posting jump details in real-time for big events. I interviewed one of the judges from the 2010 Olympics mens event and we talked about a lot of the problems we found with PCS and judging in general, even back then. It created a little bit of a buzz in the ISU circles, because the judge basically straight-up said that he believed some judges really had no idea what they were doing and that more training was necessary. Dave was writing some interesting tidbits about skating history, but he always had the Perez approach and oftentimes it was just as nasty as the comments he's shared on TSL. We talked quite a bit during this stretch of time, and it was very obvious what his objectives were. He wanted that attention and didn't try to hide it.

Don't get me wrong, once upon a time even on FSU (I'm talking just about half of my lifetime ago at this point), I was spoiling music choices for skaters like Kwan and Joubert before social media was a thing. I was posting starting orders to the big events when IceCalc was super delayed and we'd have to wait hours for updates. This was all when I was 15, 16 years old. I was straight-up annoying with some of my 'I know this' posts and the long-timers here will tell you that, especially some moderators . But then I became an adult, went through college, and I realized I actually really do like this sport for what it is after taking a step back.

I wanted to interview skaters and people in the sport and ask the questions that aren't the standard mixed zone questions. I wanted to learn everything about the judging system. I wanted to learn more about ice dance. And I love to talk about it. I fortunately through the years have made some really wonderful connections in the sport, and many of these people (skaters included here) have had truly awful direct experiences with Dave, most unprovoked or because they didn't share information that he wanted.

I don't expect everyone to know everything about his intentions, but I do know that if he is trying to mean well, he hasn't done a good job for the people that know him a little bit better than just the TSL shows. Maybe this is Dave's 'step back' and he will work on narrowing his focus to what he really wants. You hope everyone grows up at some point.

 

[sam-skwantch]

But all of this is honestly besides the point, because I think this episode with TSL and SafeSport WAS one of the BETTER uses of TSL recently, definitely more of what I have liked about the show rather than disliked in the context of how the show was now compared to what is was like in the past. The fact that this was public on SafeSport and no one was talking about it/he was still doing seminars for skaters WAS an issue in my opinion that needed to be discussed.

I think that’s the real catch with this type of “first responder” reporting. We can all probably agree that drawing awareness to Safe Sport is a good thing but there is this risk in becoming too involved and drawing attention upon yourself and away from the story. Some see value in knowing quicker than others while others (like myself) prefer more thorough reporting done over time that does not rely on or at least tries to minimize speculative scenarios to reach conclusions. Probably why I have an aversion to Twitter in general.

I respect seeing the notifications published but I don’t need speculation as to the nature of the allegations. I’m only interested in the facts. I’m not interested in conversation that may out the accusers or hear say which may inject chaos into the discussions about the story that you reported.

What I’m trying to commmnicate here is that a mind like Dave’s armed with his understanding of the sport seems to go to waste when it’s focus becomes geared toward being first to report. He likely would have drawn plenty of attention to Safe Sport and the case/cultural issues we need to address with a full investigation of facts before pushing the narrative on social media about the nature of the allegations. He has an excellent platform to reach people too but it just IMO was not being used in this instance with the most efficiency. YMMV.

I suspect Dave will be back soon too for me to ignore and occasionally

 

[skatfan]

Tony, thanks for clarifying your history. I was frankly wondering why you were spending this amount of energy on TSL's implosion when you have your own show to work on. Now I get it.

I think the best thing for a lot of us to do is give space at this moment.

 

[Amantide]

Question: why are all of you pretending like you don’t know the REAL reason he’s being threatened?

I'm not pretending. I don't know the "REAL reason", cause there is no good reason to threaten him with death, or beatings for that matter.

The reason why Dave is getting treated this way is that he’s paying the price for being known as an often malicious, callous and predatory person. This is the same jerk who is Aunt Joyce, printing cruel shit about people for years.

It's the reason why I am not his fan, and why I've mostly criticised him here, YT, twitter and unfollowed TSL.

He’s a smart man but unfortunately, he wanted to be known as an internet bully and now, he’s paying for it.

Still not a good reason to threaten people and their families. Sorry.

 

[SHARPIE]

I’m no angel myself, why do you think FSU still exists, 20 or some years after a slew of similar ezboards turned up?

Cos I knew eventually, when to tone it down.

I’m sure Dave and TSL will return, but hopefully with the less “controversial” angle.

 

[Tavi]

Ah, I see the unnatural sympathy towards Dave Lease for getting death threats has evaporated and this thread is back to trashing him - God’s in his heaven and all’s right with the world.

 

[arakwafan2006]

I'm not pretending. I don't know the "REAL reason", cause there is no good reason to threaten him with death, or beatings for that matter.



It's the reason why I am not his fan, and why I've mostly criticised him here, YT, twitter and unfollowed TSL.



Still not a good reason to threaten people and their families. Sorry.

Do me a favor, quote where is said i agree with the treatment! I don’t but i understand

 

[mackiecat]

@Tony Wheeler several years ago ( about 9-12 years ago) you seemed to know so much about what Meaghan was doing and Canadian pair scene that we thought you were her

 

[arakwafan2006]

Frankly, I stopped watching TSL shortly after Jonathan joined the team. He has garnered success as a classical singer, so kudos to him there. But, while he may be an avid FS fan, he has almost zero knowledge of the mechanics of skating and is not a skater himself. I have no interest in hearing his catty and snarky opinions on a source called "The Skating Lesson."

He won’t even stand his ground with dave on his own opinion. Dave picked a follower and while he and JonAthan don’t share a brain, Jonathan doesn’t make it a habit of expressing his point of chore when it clearly differs from dave’s at inception. He’s not even assertive enough to bring Dave back to topic.

TSL is a great concept and the skaters they’ve interviewed, BRAVO! I’m even all about them being critical of skaters skating skills, pairings that don’t seem to be working , creating conversation about abuse of power, on and on. What i think Dave just can’t control is that cynical meanness he has. It’s like he’s redirecting personal unhappiness to the skaters. His commitment and resolve to be cruel is what is as bitter as gall and mean ass jokes he tells about people seem irresistible.

TSL is the best thing going it just needs to be a bit nicer.

 

[SHARPIE]

Ah, I see the unnatural sympathy towards Dave Lease for getting death threats has evaporated and this thread is back to trashing him - God’s in his heaven and all’s right with the world.

Is that aimed at me? I couldn’t give a shiny shit about TSL. I just let it have a bit of space for discussion here.

(I’m not pro anyone getting death threats though, I had several AWFUL posts levied against me on failed ezboards that affected me greatly at the time but f*ck them)

 

[Amantide]

Do me a favor, quote where is said i agree with the treatment! I don’t but i understand

Quote where I said you did? I didn't think that for a minute.

We are discussing here and you did come off as confrontational when writing "let's not pretend why this is happening". So, I wanted to reply to that. I know the motives as well, we all do. Even understand them, if you like. But they are irrational, strongly emotional, biased, and above all very wrong.
In that sense I (we) say "I don't get it" and that is "madness".

I can only speak for myself, but I am sure nobody here was trying to portray Dave as a "saint". Just that threats means going to far. It's passing the limits.

 

[Tavi]

Is that aimed at me? I couldn’t give a shiny shit about TSL. I just let it have a bit of space for discussion here.

(I’m not pro anyone getting death threats though, I had several AWFUL posts levied against me on failed ezboards that affected me greatly at the time but f*ck them)

Umm no, actually, it wasn’t aimed at you at all.