The Dance Hall 12: Boston Tea Dance Party

marbri

Hey, Kool-Aid!
Messages
16,578
I will say one of the reasons I never got behind this team (her styling and skating aside, just an assault on the eyes) is that I saw them as a team that got advantages and opportunities because of who the mother was and not their own merit. And not just the scoring bump that came with skating Russian because everyone got that. But because of vague memories of other Russian ice dancers who were, at the time, higher ranked complaining about being passed over for assignments for D/S (and maybe one other team as well?). And the quick release from the RUS fed to skate elsewhere when all other Russian skaters are still waiting on the sidelines because of the war.

It's not JUST because of who her mother is but rather the unfair advantages and opportunities they were given because of who their mother/MIL is...

But I don't feel passionately about it, I just didn't rate them. I will admit I am curious to see how they present with the change but theirs is a story I am not invested in or endeared by in any way. 🤷‍♀️
 

PRlady

Cowardly admin
Staff member
Messages
46,273
I can't even remember which Russian dance team complained to the media about the foregone conclusion of D/S going to Beijing, probably the fourth or fifth-placed team which probably doesn't exist anymore given the musical partners over there. But I did think it was quite something to publicly and bluntly state that the Russian result was fixed.
 

litenkyckling

Well-Known Member
Messages
798
I can't even remember which Russian dance team complained to the media about the foregone conclusion of D/S going to Beijing, probably the fourth or fifth-placed team which probably doesn't exist anymore given the musical partners over there. But I did think it was quite something to publicly and bluntly state that the Russian result was fixed.
It was Skoptsova/Aleshin (2018 WJC) - good for them for speaking out because they were always objectively better than D/S
 

Marta24

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,775
When D/S skated in Juniors, the Russian Junior Ice Dance field was very, very deep. I never thought that they would be the ones to have the most success in Seniors. There wasn't really anything about their skating that stood out to me. They just seemed to me one of many talented Ice Dance teams, but I didn't expect the Russian Fed to choose them as the team of the future.

I'm also very curious to see how they will look with the IAM training. Their skating is just so Russian. IAM is of course unbelievable powerful, but they do not have a magic wand that will turn every team into World/Olympic medallists. One example are FBS, who, if they retire, will be the first IAM team, that placed in the top 5 at Worlds without ever winning a Worlds/Olympic medal.
 

marbri

Hey, Kool-Aid!
Messages
16,578
Well I don't think using FB/S as an example works considering everything.
 

Karen-W

How long do we have to wait for GP assignments?
Messages
36,777
FB/S had a bad habit of flubbing before this season.
If anything, I'd say that last season was the aberration and their top 5 finish was a result of three factors - 1) Hawayek/Baker sitting out the 2nd half of the season, 2) no Russian team to also block them from the top 5, and 3) skating clean in both phases of the competition for once, ;).
 

Rhumba d’Amour

Well-Known Member
Messages
270
If anything, I'd say that last season was the aberration and their top 5 finish was a result of three factors - 1) Hawayek/Baker sitting out the 2nd half of the season, 2) no Russian team to also block them from the top 5, and 3) skating clean in both phases of the competition for once, ;).
And, they had a really good FD that season. I saw it live at 4CC, it was breathtaking!
 

marbri

Hey, Kool-Aid!
Messages
16,578
FB/S had a bad habit of flubbing before this season.
Sure. Like others.

But my comment was in response to using FB/S as an example of the power of IAM not being able to take a top five team and give them a world medal before they retired. It was clear last year that possibility existed in the minds of the judges. But that all changed for obvious reasons.

Now having said all that G/P brought their A game this season with regards to programs. I was an instant fan of Wuthering Heights and their RD and I can't say the same for Notre Dame. But they were still very much on track to challenge for the podium this year. They beat C/B at NHK last season, beat F/G in the FD at worlds last year and finished overall fifth, three points behind Gilles/Poirier in third and .069 points behind F/G who finished in fourth. I know people like to pretend this reality didn't exist once the news broke this season but it did. Hence me saying they are not a good example of IAM failing to take a top five team to the podium before they retire.

Now let's wait and see if that holds for Fear/Gibson, then we can talk :p
 

Karen-W

How long do we have to wait for GP assignments?
Messages
36,777
Sure. Like others.

But my comment was in response to using FB/S as an example of the power of IAM not being able to take a top five team and give them a world medal before they retired. It was clear last year that possibility existed in the minds of the judges. But that all changed for obvious reasons.

Now having said all that G/P brought their A game this season with regards to programs. I was an instant fan of Wuthering Heights and their RD and I can't say the same for Notre Dame. But they were still very much on track to challenge for the podium this year. They beat C/B at NHK last season, beat F/G in the FD at worlds last year and finished overall fifth, three points behind Gilles/Poirier in third and .069 points behind F/G who finished in fourth. I know people like to pretend this reality didn't exist once the news broke this season but it did. Hence me saying they are not a good example of IAM failing to take a top five team to the podium before they retire.

Now let's wait and see if that holds for Fear/Gibson, then we can talk :p
I don't feel like the reasons were "obvious" if by obvious you're referring to the allegations about Soerensen. The obvious reasons why they didn't capitalize on last season's momentum this season are 1) poor RD (you'll never not convince me that Val/Kazimov had the better "Top Gun" RD this season), 2) even worse FD, 3) critical errors in major competitions (Finlandia, GPF, Worlds). None of those reasons have anything to do with why IAM failed to get them on the podium this year except maybe the critical errors but, as others have noted, that is hardly something new with them so the argument that last season was actually the aberration has some validity to it.

I do agree, though, coming off last season, that they certainly seemed to be on a trajectory that would have gotten them a 'thank you very much for competing, here's your retirement gift' bronze at their home Worlds but just their RD and FD material alone was going to set them back if all three of the top teams came out with better programs (and it seems clear to me that Chock/Bates had a much better RD while both Gilles/Poirier and Guignard/Fabbri had much better FDs than FBSoer).
 

marbri

Hey, Kool-Aid!
Messages
16,578
Disagree. But not going to drift off into a debate about them. I said what I said and I stand by it.
 

PRlady

Cowardly admin
Staff member
Messages
46,273
I don't feel like the reasons were "obvious" if by obvious you're referring to the allegations about Soerensen. The obvious reasons why they didn't capitalize on last season's momentum this season are 1) poor RD (you'll never not convince me that Val/Kazimov had the better "Top Gun" RD this season), 2) even worse FD, 3) critical errors in major competitions (Finlandia, GPF, Worlds). None of those reasons have anything to do with why IAM failed to get them on the podium this year except maybe the critical errors but, as others have noted, that is hardly something new with them so the argument that last season was actually the aberration has some validity to it.

I do agree, though, coming off last season, that they certainly seemed to be on a trajectory that would have gotten them a 'thank you very much for competing, here's your retirement gift' bronze at their home Worlds but just their RD and FD material alone was going to set them back if all three of the top teams came out with better programs (and it seems clear to me that Chock/Bates had a much better RD while both Gilles/Poirier and Guignard/Fabbri had much better FDs than FBSoer).
They weren’t going to hand two medals to Canada as thank-yous and G/P weren’t going to lose a medal minus a major error. I suppose they could have robbed G/F blind but I doubt it.
 

Wyliefan

Ubering juniors against my will
Messages
44,222
I don't think F-B/S's RD was so bad. It was flashy and showy, and goodness knows that's what gets points these days. Maybe V/K had the better one, but V/K aren't remotely in the same ballpark in terms of reputation or skating quality or anything, so I doubt a lot of comparisons were being made.
 

marbri

Hey, Kool-Aid!
Messages
16,578
I don't think F-B/S's RD was so bad. It was flashy and showy, and goodness knows that's what gets points these days. Maybe V/K had the better one, but V/K aren't remotely in the same ballpark in terms of reputation or skating quality or anything, so I doubt a lot of comparisons were being made.
It was a very promising strong RD that turned into a very awkward and uncomfortable RD because of the description in the accusations against him. I remember someone posting about it somewhere around here during 4CC ( I believe ) and it changed the way I viewed it from then on. It had NOTHING to do with the Spanish team's skating to the same theme.
 

her grace

Team Guignard/Fabbri
Messages
6,519
IMO, G/P were, are, and continue to be F-B/S’s biggest obstacle to success.

Heck, if G/P had retired after the last Olympics, F-B/S probably would’ve medaled last season.
 

Ka3sha

Well-Known Member
Messages
8,744
I will say one of the reasons I never got behind this team (her styling and skating aside, just an assault on the eyes) is that I saw them as a team that got advantages and opportunities because of who the mother was and not their own merit. And not just the scoring bump that came with skating Russian because everyone got that. But because of vague memories of other Russian ice dancers who were, at the time, higher ranked complaining about being passed over for assignments for D/S (and maybe one other team as well?). And the quick release from the RUS fed to skate elsewhere when all other Russian skaters are still waiting on the sidelines because of the war.

It's not JUST because of who her mother is but rather the unfair advantages and opportunities they were given because of who their mother/MIL is...

But I don't feel passionately about it, I just didn't rate them. I will admit I am curious to see how they present with the change but theirs is a story I am not invested in or endeared by in any way. 🤷‍♀️
This is what makes me mad about the whole situation. I totally agree that the kids should not be responsible for their parents actions and should not be blamed for it. However, Davis/Smolkin have been using Tutberidze's influence & money for several seasons and for various reasons. They wanted to go to the Olympics - they went there over way better and more deserving teams. They wanted to escape Russia - here you are, please, take your release. A release after just a year, when someone like partner-less Dario Chirizano was denied of such thing (and he didn't even go to the Olympics or wasn't on the main National team). Literally no one except Davis/Smolkin has been released. Yes, they posted their anti-war statements on social media - but who pays for their coaching? Their mother, who now stars in Russian trashy reality shows and just got a new big ice rink from Moscow's mayor. Again, I am not judging her for doing that as I understand the situation in Russia all too well, but they are literally trying to sit on both chairs.

Overall, it's not too surprising, as figure skating and ice dance in particular has always been about politicking and block judging, no matter the country and coaching group (just some are admitting it more openly). I am intrigued to see where they will end up and how it will go. Yet, no way I will ever even slightly be rooting for them.
 
Last edited:

Dobre

Well-Known Member
Messages
17,241
Well, for those who are upset that IAM took them in, I suspect this particular Tiger Mom is the gift that keeps on giving.

So natural consequences and all that;).

(Also, I've gotta say it's ironic that her daughter fell in love with this particular discipline. Plenty of heartache in ice dance even for the most politically well-situated, I think).
 

kwanfan1818

RIP D-10
Messages
37,805
While the LTU long-time judge had probably been working triple-overtime to get Reed a Euros medal and seeded for GP next year as a last hurrah before mandatory retirement in a few years, IAM had to give them the programs to give the judges plausible deniability that she still isn't as good as her partner. Lots of people here enjoyed them a lot this season, based on competition posts.
 

sap5

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,548
It was a very promising strong RD that turned into a very awkward and uncomfortable RD because of the description in the accusations against him. I remember someone posting about it somewhere around here during 4CC ( I believe ) and it changed the way I viewed it from then on. It had NOTHING to do with the Spanish team's skating to the same theme.
The accusations may have changed the way you viewed the RD, but they shouldn’t have changed the judges viewed it.
 

PRlady

Cowardly admin
Staff member
Messages
46,273
This is a post by Namu Lee's mother that includes a video of Kim/Lee's first day skating together: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5kcxLOLlN0/
Machine translation says Jinny decided to quit for personal reasons after Junior Worlds (and that his mom respects her decision & supports her future) and that Namu will look for a new partner.
Surely in that array of small young Korean singles skaters there is one with the skating skills for dance. The road up is a lot less crowded.
 

Belsornia

I bite because I like it
Messages
3,654
Given the recent news of splits, I did a stock take on the likely status of junior teams heading into the new season - assuming no change to the age rules for now, since we haven't yet seen the proposals or know how much support they're likely to get. Not too many teams ageing up this season (outside of Italy) - PinPog are the only one from the JGPF or the top group at Junior Worlds - but there will be a fairly wholesale clearout after junior worlds next year. And several teams have choices to make about whether to move up early or do a split season (Neset/Markelov, Tkachenko/Kiliakov, Grimm/Savitskiy, Zehnder/Sieber, Kudryavtseva/Karankevich). Plus the Canadian field is looking very thin on the ground after another round of splits, though I'm sure there will be some new teams by the summer competitions.

Armenia
Kristina Dobroserdova / Alessandro Pellegrini – ageing up

Australia
Regina Ng / Dominik Mautner – 1 more season (junior eligible through JWC 2025)
Renee Yuen / Oliver Ma – 5 more seasons (junior eligible through JWC 2029)

Austria
Elisabeth Havers / Leo Havers – 3 more seasons (junior eligible through JWC 2027)
Anita Straub / Andreas Straub – 2 more seasons (junior eligible through JWC 2026)

Belgium
Sofia Beznosikova / Max Leleu – 4 more seasons (junior eligible through JWC 2028)

Brazil
Catharina Guedes Tibau / Cayden Dawson – split (she’s looking for a new partner and has moved to IAM Ontario)

Canada
Victoria Carandiuc / Andrei Carandiuc – 3 more seasons
Charlotte Chung / Axel Mackenzie – ageing up
Aurea Cincon-Debout / Earl Jesse Celestino – 2 more seasons
Jamie Fournier / Everest Zhu – ageing up
Audra Gans / Michael Boutsan – split (both looking for new partners)
Emma Goodstadt / Christian Bennett – split (she’s retired, he’s ageing up and looking for a new partner)
Sophia Gover / Billy Wilson French – 1 more season
Alisa Korneva / Kieran MacDonald – ageing up
Caroline Kravets / Jacob Stark – split (she’s looking for a new partner)
Jordyn Lewis / Noah McMillan – split
Savanna Martel / William Oddson – split (he’s looking for a new partner)
Chloe Nguyen / Brendan Giang – ageing up
Dana Sabatini-Speciale / Nicholas Buelow – split (she’s looking for a new partner)
Layla Veillon / Alexander Brandys – 1 more season

China
Xuantong Li / Xinkang Wang – 1 more season – but may move up since they’ve already done a couple of split seasons
Yufei Lin / Zijian Gao – ageing up
Tong Liu / Quanshuo Ge – 3 more seasons
Xinyi Yu / Tianyi Liu – 2 more seasons

Cyprus
Angelina Kudryavtseva / Ilia Karankevich – 1 more season – but have suggested they may move up

Czechia
Lauren Batkova / Jacob Yang – 1 more season
Natalie Blaasova / Filip Blaas – 2 more seasons
Andrea Psurna / Jachym Novak – split (both looking for new partners)
Kristyna Stanclova / Karel Kostron – 3 more seasons
Klara Vlckova / Tomas Vlcek – 3 more seasons
Eliska Zakova / Filip Mencl – 1 more season

Spain
Sarah Marcilly Vazquez / Jolan Engel – 4 more seasons
Maite Ojeda Lindholst / Hector Gonzalez Elvira – 3 more seasons
Elena Pena / Antonio Pena – split (he’s looking for a new partner)
Athena Roberts / Eric Alis – ageing up

Estonia
Ksenia Sipunova / Miron Korjagin – 3 more seasons

Finland
Enna Kesti / Oskari Liedenpohja – 3 more seasons
Cilla Laine / Urho Reina – 1 more season
Hilda Taylor / Nolen Hickey – ageing up

France
Eva Bernard / Amedeo Bonetto – ageing up
Estelle Bouillet / Martin Chardain – split (she’s looking for a new partner)
Maissane Chine / Lucas Chataignoux – split (he’s now skating with Lou Koch)
Louise Duprat / Tahory Taddei-Dugue – 4 more seasons
Celina Fradji / Jean-Hans Fourneaux – 1 more season
Diane Gallix / Elod Egyed-Zsigmond – 3 more seasons
Lea Hienne / Baptiste Ferrand – 1 more season
Lena Maliqueo-Repoux / Illia Synelnikov – 3 more seasons
Dania Mouaden / Theo Bigot – 5 more seasons
Ambre Perrier Gianesini / Samuel Blanc Klaperman – 2 more seasons
Diane Sznajder / Joseph Booth – split (she’s looking for a new partner)
Agathe Tournadre / Thomas Gipoulou – 1 more season

United Kingdom
Molly Hairsine / Alessio Surenkov-Gultchev – 1 more season
Ashlie Slatter / Atl Ongay-Perez – 4 more seasons

Georgia
Mariia Alieva / Yehor Barshak – ageing up

Germany
Darya Grimm / Michail Savitskiy – 1 more season – have suggested they may do a split season
Alexia Kruk / Jan Eisenhaber – 2 more seasons
Mia Lee Mayer / Davide Calderari – 3 more seasons
Savenna Pache / Korbinian Steinsailer – 1 more season
Lilia Schubert / Nikita Remeshevskiy – ageing up

Ireland
Laura Hegarty / Kevin Hegarty – ageing up

Israel
Elizabeth Tkachenko / Alexei Kiliakov – 1 more season – may do a split season

Italy
Zoe Bianchi / Pietro Rota – 4 more seasons
Giulia Paolino / Andrea Tuba – ageing up
Vittoria Petracchi / Daniel Basile – 3 more seasons
Alice Pizzorni / Massimiliano Bucciarelli – 1 more season
Noemi Tali / Noah Lafornara – ageing up
Beatrice Ventura / Stefano Frasca – ageing up

Japan
Sara Kishimoto / Atsuhiko Tamura – 1 more season
Kaho Yamashita / Yuto Nagata – ageing up

Kazakhstan
Eva Shelaeva / Ivan Solovyev – 4 more seasons

South Korea
Jinny Kim / Namu Lee – split (she’s retired, he’s looking for a new partner)

Mexico
Harlow Stanley / Nikita Sosnenko – split (she’s now skating senior with Seiji Urano, he’s looking for a new partner)

Poland
Sofiia Dovhal / Wiktor Kulesza – 1 more season - likely another split season

South Africa
Felicity Chase / Mikhail Ajam – split (he’s looking for a new partner)

Switzerland
Maelle Ledermann / Antonin Emo – split (she’s looking for a new partner)
Seraina Tscharner / Laurin Wiederkehr – 3 more seasons
Gina Zehnder / Beda Sieber – 1 more season – but likely doing another split season

Turkiye
Irmak Yucel / Danil Pak – 1 more season

Ukraine
Iryna Pidgaina / Artem Koval – 2 more seasons
Mariia Pinchuk / Mykyta Pogorielov – ageing up
Sofiia Rekunova / Denys Fediankin – 4 more seasons

USA
Kristina Bland / Matthew Sperry – ageing up
Helena Carhart / Volodymyr Horovyi – ageing up
Amy Cui / Kenny Eckert – split (she’s rumoured to be skating senior with Jonathan Rogers, he’s looking for a new partner)
Jenna Hauer / Benjamin Starr – split (unclear if either/both looking for a new partner)
Olivia Ilin / Dylan Cain – 5 more seasons
Caroline Mullen / Brendan Mullen – 1 more season
Leah Neset / Artem Markelov – 1 more season – but likely moving up (have they said anything or is that just an assumption?)
Elliana Peal / Ethan Peal – 1 more season
Yahli Pedersen / Jeffrey Chen – split (both looking for new partners)
 

Frau Muller

From Puerto Rico…With Love! Not LatinX!
Messages
22,236
…, Ukraine isn't exactly the best example for a history of fair and honest judging. If the judges from Ukraine want to go out of their way to over-support every Russian skater, then what can I say?


Yuri Balkov, anyone? The famous tap dancer in 1998?
 

Andrea82

Well-Known Member
Messages
852
Yuri Balkov, anyone? The famous tap dancer in 1998?

Tap dancer was Alfred Kortyek at 1999 World Championships. Kortyek switched from Ukraine to Israel a few years later and he ended his judging career around 2006.
There have been various switches between ex Soviet Union Feds. For instance, Irina Medvedieva (currently Ukraine) used to be a judge for Azerbaijan while Yuri Kliushnikov (currently Azerbaijan) used to be a judge for Ukraine. They swapped in 2018.
The current ID judge for Georgia used to be a judge for Belarus until 2018/19.

Yuri retired of old-age in 2021. Since 2014 he was demoted by ISU to international status pretending he didn't have working English skills (Jean Senft was able to understand his ranking well in late 90s though).

Ukraine still have Natalia Kruglova (she judged Men at 2024 Worlds) who was suspended at the Cup of Nice a decade ago for having begged the British judge to be generous with GOEs with a Ukrainian pair nobody remembers because they needed to get minimum TES for Worlds.
 

Frau Muller

From Puerto Rico…With Love! Not LatinX!
Messages
22,236
What a gang, @Andrea82 ! Hard to keep them straight. I thought that Balkov was filmed doing “foot tapping” during 1998 Olympic ice dancing. Too many Yuris…too many taps!

This must have been a different tapper:

 
Last edited:

Andrea82

Well-Known Member
Messages
852
What a gang, @Andrea82 ! Hard to keep them straight. I thought that Balkov was filmed doing “foot tapping” during 1998 Olympic ice dancing. Too many Yuris…too many taps!

This must have been a different tapper:

Yes, Balkov was the one on tape with Senft.
Kortyek was foot-tapping with Sviatoslav Babenko (Russia). He got in trouble also during Men event at Lausanne Worlds (1997). He was sitting next to George Iashvili (Georgia) during the SP and they apparently talked to each other during the whole SP at the end of each performance when the clapping was louder. They were seen by some in public who told the referee (Britta Lindgren).
Then Babenko also got suspended for a second time at Nepela Trophy 2016 for chatting during the Pair competition with the long-time Lithuanian judge mentioned above in this thread.
Also Babenko retired in 2021 when he turned 70 years old.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top
Do Not Sell My Personal Information