The Dance Hall 10: The Saitama Samba 2022-2023

[allezfred]

How does something like that actually work?

Ice dance politics is like any sort of politics. It’s horse trading. You give me something I want and I give you something you want.

 

[skatfan]

I‘m not. It didn’t occur to them that they would need a choreographer?
(admittedly, Charlie has done some nice work for pairs—not dancers—in the past)

Green and Parsons were a late add for MIDA. MIDA couldn’t pass up the #3 team in the US, but they had little time to get to know each other before deciding on programs.

Both programs look better, and other than the one clunky lift in Rhapsody, there’s no obvious ugh moments. They don’t have an innate Latin feel, so that was always going to be a stretch.

They’ll have to make mistakes for other teams to beat them.

 

[layman]

I think Chock/Bates free dance just peters out at the end. The end of the program needs to be reworked to give it a more musical ending. This was obvious from the polite applause that the Japanese audience gave the program (while Green/Parson's got a partial standing ovation).

I do see a great deal of improvement though in Chock/Bates performance of the free. I saw more speed and they filled out their patterns and used more of the complete ice surface.

I think that if they can fix the ending (of the free dance) to get more of a musical build and work on getting higher technical levels, then they may challenge the Canadians (both teams) and the Italians for a podium position at the big events coming up.

 

[VGThuy]

Funny how Green/Parsons had a “meh” reaction at Skate Canada (especially compared to Laj/Lag), and miss out on a medal, but scored over 119 in the FD while at NHK, they get a partial standing O, win the bronze, but score 114 (while placing 4th in the FD, albeit barely behind R/A in the FD).

 

[litenkyckling]

Funny how Green/Parsons had a “meh” reaction at Skate Canada (especially compared to Laj/Lag) but scored over 119 in the FD while at NHK, they get a partial standing O, win the bronze (while placing 4th in the FD, but barely behind R/A in the FD), but score 114.

Not really… they got pretty low levels at NHK. I think the scoring was perfectly fine here.

 

[VGThuy]

Not really… they got pretty low levels at NHK. I think the scoring was perfectly fine here.

I didn’t say the scoring was wrong. I studied the TES and acknowledged the panel at NHK was tougher than at Skate Canada all-around. I just thought it was funny how the scores differed from the reaction and the medal result.

 

[litenkyckling]

I didn’t say the scoring was wrong. I studied the TES and acknowledged the panel at NHK was tougher than at Skate Canada all-around. I just thought it was funny how the scores differed from the reaction and the medal result.

I don’t actually think it was a super tough panel here - but they were 8th in BV. The crowd at skate Canada didn’t want them to beat LaLa and NHK crowd tend to be very receptive and supportive towards most dance teams.

 

[VGThuy]

I don’t actually think it was a super tough panel here - but they were 8th in BV. The crowd at skate Canada didn’t want them to beat LaLa and NHK crowd tend to be very receptive and supportive towards most dance teams.

It was still tougher than Skate Canada. We can go on and on. I think you missed the point of my original post because you’re arguing something with me I’ve never argued (that the scores weren’t fine). Then I stupidly responded and now you found something else to pick at to disagree with me with. Whether or not the panel was tough, I still found it funny how the…never mind.

ETA: I’m starting to get the response now….

 

[litenkyckling]

It was still tougher than Skate Canada. We can go on and on. I think you missed the point of my original post because you’re arguing something with me I’ve never argued (that the scores weren’t fine). Then I stupidly responded and now you found something else to pick at to disagree with me with. Whether or not the panel was tough, I still found it funny how the…never mind.

ETA: I’m starting to get the response now….

I'm not picking at anything to disagree with... I don't think your original point was even a point? Like yeah every panel is different and every field is different therefore different scores are required for medals? I was just pointing out that this wasn't as deep a field near the top and they didn't perform as technically sound here as at SCI so wouldn't have gotten as high a score even with a standing o?

 

[Andrea82]

Some random points

a) I didn't except Janse Van Exctera/Steffan to be so close to Demougeot/Le Mercier. Re Warsaw Cup.
The extended lift costed the win to the German couple.

b) It is close for Italy #2 spot at Euros. It will be likely down to Nationals. The ranking is computed as Nationals + Average of 2 best international scores. Currently it is

Manni/Roethlisberger 166.455 (Mezzaluna Cup + Warsaw Cup)
Portesi Peroni/Chrastecky 160.77 (Mezzaluna Cup + Pavel Roman Memorial)
Dozzi/Papetti 159.6 (US Classic+ Open d'Andorra)
Leccardi/Della Torre 150.115 (Lombardia Trophy + Nebelhorn Trophy) * But DT injured his shoulder (dislocation) during the RD at Mezzaluna Cup

PP/C are set for NRW Trophy next week. Papetti/Dozzi for Golden Spin. No more international events for M/R expected in 2022. I think the idea was having 5 competitions for each team (so maybe D/P will end up in Bosphorus Cup too as they have done 3 so far + Golden Spin to come).
In early December there will be a national competition with PP/C and M/R facing off again (at Mezzaluna Cup, M/R won the head to head).

For Worlds ranking is computed as Nationals + Egna Dance Trophy + average top 2 other scores

c) Tali/Frasca won over Fraud/Fourneaux at Open d'Andorra in both TES and PCS in both segments.

 

[Gris]

If anyone hasn't seen Koch & Melnyk's Swan Lake FD, it's a must watch. Their choreo steps (at about 2:06) are possibly the best element of the season. It will make you look at what's coming out of the NA ice dance schools and just sigh out of boredom.

Unfortunately it seems that team is no more as she's on IPS now.

Lou Koch - Ice Partner Search

Female from Villard-de-Lans, France: Short term, I want to continue to participate in competitions like the Junior Grand Prix and the Junior Worlds, go to the Junior Grand Prix Final, and other international competitions and achieve good results there.Long term, I want to have the best results...

www.icepartnersearch.com

 

[BlueRidge]

@Andrea82 thank you for that rundown, I had been wondering about Italy #2

 

[AYS]

I think Chock/Bates free dance just peters out at the end. The end of the program needs to be reworked to give it a more musical ending. This was obvious from the polite applause that the Japanese audience gave the program (while Green/Parson's got a partial standing ovation).

I do see a great deal of improvement though in Chock/Bates performance of the free. I saw more speed and they filled out their patterns and used more of the complete ice surface.

I think that if they can fix the ending (of the free dance) to get more of a musical build and work on getting higher technical levels, then they may challenge the Canadians (both teams) and the Italians for a podium position at the big events coming up.

I completely agree with this. The ending is the main remaining issue since the revision to the program, and I personally think they need to once again change the music at the very end, at least - I think it would be fine to keep a segment of the Jorane piece but not to the end. It was also obvious from the low GOEs the judges gave the 2 ending Choreo sequences. One of the major criteria for GOEs for the choreo element is how well it's expressing the character or rhythm of the music, and it's just not going to pull in the judges or crowds as is.

The choreo sequences are important, possibly deal-breaking point getters now. You're losing ground to everyone if you're scoring below 4 total pts on them, which they did for those final 2.

 

[Debbie S]

I think the choreo slide is OK (but agree on a different musical ending) but they do need to rework the choreo steps. That and the twizzles were where they lost the most points relative to F-B/S yesterday. They actually outscored F-B/S on lifts, steps and the spin. (And looking at the Skating Scores analysis, the majority of the judges had C/B first in the RD. Weird how it worked out when scores were added.)

 

[Dobre]

I think people have paid too much attention to Takahashi in determining their narrative of M&T and not enough to Muramoto.

She's essentially where she was before she split with Chris.
Michael Parsons is where he was before he split with Rachel.
Evan is where he was before he split with Emily.

It's pretty standard when you have a new partnership, composed of 1/2 of a well-established team, that the new partnership goes thunk and then eventually climbs back up among the dance hierarchy to close to where the higher-ranked athlete was previously placed.

This does require that the new partner has quality. Takahashi is definitely learning and he's not going to go back and start over as an ice dancer, but I don't think you'll find an honest fan in the world who doesn't believe he has strong basic skating skills. If M&T were competing for an ice dance powerhouse, this wouldn't be enough; but it's Japan and the citizenship rules are so tough, this is a viable option.

K&K do not have strong basic skills. They were always going to have competition. If it wasn't Kana & Dai, it would be Kana and someone else. Or Orihara & someone else. It would be someone.

----

I think I did not do badly with my earlier analysis for this event. Thought Reed & Abrulevicius's FD might outweigh Green & Parsons's we-have-better-technique-but-we-just-switched-coaches-and-haven't-had-time-to-develop-any-great-lifts status at this stage. But overall, pretty good. Kudos to both teams. I think they had a nice event.

 

[skatingguy]

So I watched both Chock/Bates free skates from Skate America & NHK side by side to compare them. The changes to the program are as follows:

• new costumes - matching colours, and now in white/black costumes worn at NHK, in particular, makes Evan look bigger on the ice compared to the darker shirt he wore at Skate America
• more skating in the opening moments of the program at NHK compared to more static movements at Skater America going into the choreographic assisted jump
• switched the order of elements where the curve lift now happens before the choreographic character step sequence instead of after

I'm not sure this is the sort of impact that they were looking for between the two events, and other than getting the one choreographic element to count they didn't really see an improvement in their scores. I think they have a lot of work to do before the Grand Prix Final.

 

[deegee]

i heard or read in some review of the dance event at s.a. that the most interesting parts of c/b's free dance are when madison's skates aren't touching the ice and it got me to thinking of all of my favorite moments from their previous fd's and that seems to be the running theme.

with the huge push behind c/b and f/g this season, i've developed a greater appreciation for the way p/c actively chose to de-emphasize lift and spin positions in favor of showing off their skills when both of them had their blades on the ice. demonstrating how their patterns on the ice (whether a compulsory dance pattern, one foot sequence, twizzle sequence, etc.) took up the entire surface of the ice and how they sometimes had to choreograph multiple changes of direction into those sequences so they wouldn't run out of room. demonstrating how they could remain the same, very close distance apart in side-by-side sequences, both step and twizzles. demonstrating how they could maintain their speed and distance between them even if they switched positions (meaning who was in front or behind or on the left vs the right). these are the kinds of strengths that h/d and h/b have in spades, too.

i've been thinking a lot about how the absence of p/c and h/d have weirdly made these differences in skill sets more apparent in teams like c/b and f/g rather than less.

 

[marbri]

I think the difference between the way P/C skate vs C/B and F/G was evident all the time.

I think both teams are aware of their weaknesses (even think Roman might have said something about C/B last season?) so they focus on their strengths. Which often involve both ladies riding the backs of their partners

 

[SidelineSkater]

I think the difference between the way P/C skate vs C/B and F/G was evident all the time.

I think both teams are aware of their weaknesses (even think Roman might have said something about C/B last season?) so they focus on their strengths. Which often involve both ladies riding the backs of their partners

There was a great example of H/D and C/B in a side by side photo (I can't find it to link) from Nats last year during a pattern or step sequence. Hubbell is holding a strong edge on her own where Chock is leaning on to Evan.

That said, by all means play to your strengths. I think C/B could have done something more character driven and less abstract this season, while still trying be less - character focused. Now, having to re-invent and explain your theme is taking away from just enjoying the skating. Someone earlier mentioned their Elvis FD - something like that would be great. Prior to the IAM days, they were mostly skating to music without strong characters. (American in Paris, Rach/Romance, Under Pressure, Imagine). Especially if your plan is a year at a time - make sure you have strong material and skate like each performance is your last.

I understand this theme is personal to them and the engagement story, but there are lots of themes that they could explore - Witch/Spell using music from Madea's Dance of Vengance/Suggestion Diabolique, Siren/Sailor - Odyssey music (not POTC!), Goddess/Human, etc.

 

[deegee]

I think the difference between the way P/C skate vs C/B and F/G was evident all the time.

I think both teams are aware of their weaknesses (even think Roman might have said something about C/B last season?) so they focus on their strengths. Which often involve both ladies riding the backs of their partners

oh for sure it was evident before. i'm just taking note (mostly for myself) that it's weird that when the previous top teams aren't even around for comparison, the differences in skill have somehow become more glaring.

 

[kwanfan1818]

She's essentially where she was before she split with Chris.
Michael Parsons is where he was before he split with Rachel.
Evan is where he was before he split with Emily.

Perhaps Muramoto, but I disagree about Michael Parsons and Bates.

While their first senior season GPs/internationals results were similar, Parsons with his sister: 6th at an Olympic season 4C's vs. Parsons with Green's 1st at an Olympic season 4C's. The only #1 ranked country team at either was Wang/Liu in 2018.

Bates and Chock had similar results with their prior partners: Samuelson and Bates were 11th and 9th at their two Worlds and 11th at their first Olympics, while Chock/Zuerlain were 9th at their first/only Worlds. Chock/Bates were 7th at their first Worlds and were never lower, and they were 8th at their first Olympics. So it was a jump up for them when they paired together, even though he was coming off of a major injury.

 

[yurokis40]

Chock and bates are on a weapo trajectory circa 2018-2019 5th or 6th at worlds at best should have retired after worlds. Anyway the judges will make them retire.

 

[VGThuy]

Thinking about when Hubbel/Donohue's "Tron" FD first debuted in the 2015-16 season, it had a more more literal, character-heavy type of interpretation. Though they did well enough with it to make the GPF, it wasn't wowing most people until Worlds 2016 where they had such a breath-taking performance that cast a spell over the audience. There, they not only changed their costumes, but they took on a more "abstract" interpretation of the music and let go of having the pressure to tell a literal story.

With that in mind, when I compare H/D and C/B and their past routines where they tried different things and saw what worked for the audience and what didn't...I find that Hubbell/Donohue weren't strong "actors" on the ice, but they had the skills, power, and natural chemistry that it was wiser for them to do more abstract, mood pieces where they could skate to a "feeling" as their blade-work, glide, and strong, organic connection could carry that feeling over to the audience.

With Chock/Bates, Madison is a natural performer who relies on shorter glides and more rhythmic dancing and flexibility. Evan, who I think is a great partner and can dance at times, hasn't had much presence by himself since his junior days. Therefore, it's smarter for them to rely on "character" pieces that they can perform to in order to give them personality, and also give them a story that the audience can recognize because they can't just skate to the melody or mood as they don't have that kind of presence or power to make it palatable for the audience.

 

[PRlady]

To be fair, when H/D (whom I loved) tried real character pieces like Monroe/DiMaggio, the results were pretty bad. Chock just has more performing talent. The perfect Madison would have Hubbell’s skating skills and Chock’s performance ability.

 

[allezfred]

Chock and bates are on a weapo trajectory circa 2018-2019 5th or 6th at worlds at best should have retired after worlds. Anyway the judges will make them retire.

You read it here first folks! Chock/Bates World champs 2023!

 

[VGThuy]

You read it here first folks! Chock/Bates World champs 2023!

The yurokis kiss of death is like the opposite of the Black Mark of Tarasova.

 

[marbri]

For the record I have enjoyed C/B the last two seasons. I like to see teams reach their potential and I think their work in Montreal the past two seasons showed their best. I think why I didn't respond positively to their debut at SA was because I don't think she is at her best in that style so it exaggerates her weaknesses. I think the adjustments they made for the following GP fall closer to what she does well. And they need, imo, Madison to be fiery, sassy, whatever to come out on top of the other teams.

To be fair, when H/D (whom I loved) tried real character pieces like Monroe/Miller, the results were pretty bad. Chock just has more performing talent. The perfect Madison would have Hubbell’s skating skills and Chock’s performance ability.

Speaking of I think H/D would have suited the original program C/B skated at SA. I think you need strong skating skills and powerful sweeping glide to pull that off. On the flip side H/D could never skate the snake or alien programs.

It's a rare team that can pull off different styles and themes successfully. Very rare.

 

[SidelineSkater]

Thinking about when Hubbel/Donohue's "Tron" FD first debuted in the 2015-16 season, it had a more more literal, character-heavy type of interpretation. Though they did well enough with it to make the GPF, it wasn't wowing most people until Worlds 2016 where they had such a breath-taking performance that cast a spell over the audience. There, they not only changed their costumes, but they took on a more "abstract" interpretation of the music and let go of having the pressure to tell a literal story.

With that in mind, when I compare H/D and C/B and their past routines where they tried different things and saw what worked for the audience and what didn't...I find that Hubbell/Donohue weren't strong "actors" on the ice, but they had the skills, power, and natural chemistry that it was wiser for them to do more abstract, mood pieces where they could skate to a "feeling" as their blade-work, glide, and strong, organic connection could carry that feeling over to the audience.

With Chock/Bates, Madison is a natural performer who relies on shorter glides and more rhythmic dancing and flexibility. Evan, who I think is a great partner and can dance at times, hasn't had much presence by himself since his junior days. Therefore, it's smarter for them to rely on "character" pieces that they can perform to in order to give them personality, and also give them a story that the audience can recognize because they can't just skate to the melody or mood as they don't have that kind of presence or power to make it palatable for the audience.

You said what I was thinking and in a much more diplomatic way than I could. I guess that's also why the Shallow FD of H/D never really clicked. Not that they were portraying Gaga/Cooper, but it wasn't as abstract as their other, more successful programs. I really, really wanted to like that program and do to some extent, but think the element layout and music didn't work to their strengths. Same with the R/J free dance the season prior. They were beating S/K at the GPF and were close at worlds. I wonder if the RusFed/Zhulin backing pushed them down to setup a head to head with P/C for the rest of the quad? Quite frankly, I think H/D were closer in ability and level than S/K.

I do like the beginning of this quad - with so many unknowns and the tight race in dance. GPF will be a good insight as to how the top 6 teams shake out.

 

[On My Own]

I think some of the details on C/B's FD are amazing. I hope they will be at their best by worlds, and I think they could make the program even better.

 

[Bigbird]

I think some of the details on C/B's FD are amazing. I hope they will be at their best by worlds, and I think they could make the program even better.

In comparison to other FD programs I find it flat and their latin doesn't have much latin. I get the feeling they've peaked. They have the material in the RD they're just not selling it. It just comes off as too cute. They are also too hesitant. Latin has to flow. Chock doesn't have the SS to really make the RD work. IMHO..