Thanks for playing - Fran's take on Alina Zagitova at the GP of France

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I have just finished watching Fran's recap of the ISU Grand Prix of France.

She brought up an interesting point, in that if a skater suddenly falls out of favour, or is being pushed aside for the next generation, that their marks and not necessarily their actual performance are a reflection of this trend.

Case in point when she highlights Alina Zagitova's under-rotations at the event. The Russian world champion essentially skated the same last season, but now, jump deficiencies that were previously overlooked, are now being questioned and penalised much more.

Certainly her compatriot, Elizaveta Tuktamysheva is a target of this trend as well, for her lack of transitions and choreography.

So, it probably won't be to anyone's surprise when Kostornaia, Shcherbakova, and Trusova make up the World Team (and possibly the podium) next March in Montreal.

RECAP | Internationaux de France 2019 + the Hamada Situation

I discuss the Internationaux de France 2019 and Mie Hamada.

youtu.be

 

[kittyjake5]

Interesting take from Fran. I did question Alina’s ur calls only because she usually doesn’t get called on them.

 

[muffinplus]

Her take doesn't make total sense, because she received similar marks in GP last year and did get called on some UR

Check protocols for FS at Rostelecom, she also received 2 UR calls (she has more at IDF 2019, but one of them is also a jump she fell out on)

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1819/gprus2018/gprus2018_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Or the one at Euros - OK that was a bad skate with clear URs so not a good example maybe

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1819/ec2019/ec2019_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

 

[feraina]

Interesting take from Fran. I did question Alina’s ur calls only because she usually doesn’t get called on them.

But her UR’s last year were just as bad if not worse.

Medvedeva was never called out for her flutz either until she was no longer the shiny new thing.

 

[tony]

Bad example from here. It’s obvious this particular panel was very, very on top of all of the underrotations in the event- check the protocols for all of the ladies. If it had only been Alina with the calls, she’d have a talking point. But it wasn’t.

Last year, Zagitova cheated almost all of her jumps in Finland and didn’t get called for them because of a likely generous panel. She got better with it as the season progressed, though.

 

[Vagabond]

Last year, Zagitova cheated almost all of her jumps in Finland

Could we, as a message board, please not use the word "cheat" for "underrotate"?

The word "cheat" implies the use of fraud or deceit. Unless there is evidence that a skater deliberately underrotated jumps in order to bamboozle the Tech Panel and judges, to say she "cheated" her jumps is to do her, and skating generally, a disservice.

 

[tony]

Could we, as a message board, please not use the word "cheat" for "underrotate"?

The word "cheat" implies the use of fraud or deceit. Unless there is evidence that a skater deliberately underrotated jumps in order to bamboozle the Tech Panel and judges, to say she "cheated" her jumps is to do her, and skating generally, a disservice.

Oh geez. Well I’m sorry that you took it as a disservice to HER when I, and many others, would say that about any jump that isn’t all the way around regardless of the skater.

The USFS even has the ISU handbook which clarifies it at one point as ‘cheated jumps’ (page 19):

https://www.usfigureskating.org/content/Technical%20Panel%20Handbook_Singles%20Skating.pdf

Take it up with them, I guess?

 

[Vagabond]

And if the ISU cannot use the English language properly, that means that we shouldn't either?

 

[tony]

And if the ISU cannot use the English language properly, that means that we shouldn't either?

https://www.usfsa.org/content/Identifying%20Jumps.pdf

Neither can the USFS itself. Darn, I guess we are all stupid.

ETA- I get what you are trying to say, but the term 'cheated' has been around forever in the sport and it is not in any way inclusive to the board or to the skater. It comes from the foot turning on the ice rather than the skater just falling down, which is in fact deceiving a solid run-out and landing. I've even heard skaters say they need to work on their cheated jumps.

 

[kittyjake5]

But her UR’s last year were just as bad if not worse.

Medvedeva was never called out for her flutz either until she was no longer the shiny new thing.

I don't follow the ladies as much as the other disciplines. For some reason with the
scores Alina has been getting I though she was ur fee, my bad.

 

[Vagabond]

ETA- I get what you are trying to say, but the term 'cheated' has been around forever in the sport and it is not in any way inclusive to the board or to the skater. It comes from the foot turning on the ice rather than the skater just falling down, which is in fact deceiving a solid run-out and landing. I've even heard skaters say they need to work on their cheated jumps.

I have seen it posted right here on FSU. Here, for example:

Is it always an attempt to cheat?

Yes.

The term "paddy wagon" has been around "forever" too. That doesn't mean we should use it.

 

[feraina]

Yes, cheated is in common use. But I still hate it. For new fans, it might indeed give some impression of intentional deception. And hopefully there will always be new fans, or our favorite sport will just... die.

 

[bardtoob]

And if the ISU cannot use the English language properly, that means that we shouldn't either?

"Cheated jump" is a traditional skating term harking back to the days when skaters actually strived for perfection. Perhaps it has a negative connotation. I am not that PC, but you can use "rotationally challenged jump".

... IIRC the ISU couldn't even describe a spiral properly when writing the original code of points, describing the body position wrong in additional to not recognizing that it is the edge that is spiraling.

 

[MacMadame]

And hopefully new fans aren't idiots who can't figure out it's a sports jargon.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

https://www.usfsa.org/content/Identifying%20Jumps.pdf

Neither can the USFS itself. Darn, I guess we are all stupid.

ETA- I get what you are trying to say, but the term 'cheated' has been around forever in the sport and it is not in any way inclusive to the board or to the skater. It comes from the foot turning on the ice rather than the skater just falling down, which is in fact deceiving a solid run-out and landing. I've even heard skaters say they need to work on their cheated jumps.

Maybe that's how Trump has avoided declaring his tax returns. Could he have under-rotated on them?

 

[aftershocks]

Reminder: Zagitova didn't start out great last season. She was adjusting to growth spurt, and thus she wasn't consistent. Her weaknesses in technique, lack of speed and ugly crossovers were highlighted. Yes, she can rotate fast and she's pretty. But with not being consistent last season, the judges didn't hold her up too much. Her confidence was also suffering. By Worlds though, Zagitova had worked some things out and she skated better, and she was rewarded.

Zagitova has always been over-rewarded on PCS. Plus, the judges love to uphold their OGM decision. So what about UR calls. Zagitova's scores, especially on PCS, are overly high as usual. Zagitova is simply being respected for her OGM win with decently high scores, but the uber fawning attention is on the quadsters and triple axel phenoms of the next generation. Zagitova should just be happy making podiums at this point. She's won the ultimate victory already. So what's her motivation about now anyway? Proving that the OGM was deserved and not a politicked foregone conclusion punctuated by bells and whistles?

 

[DreamSkates]

Bad example from here. It’s obvious this particular panel was very, very on top of all of the underrotations in the event- check the protocols for all of the ladies. If it had only been Alina with the calls, she’d have a talking point. But it wasn’t.

Last year, Zagitova cheated almost all of her jumps in Finland and didn’t get called for them because of a likely generous panel. She got better with it as the season progressed, though.

Maybe this panel was tired of the miscalls last year and wanted to even the playing ground.

 

[kittysk8ts]

https://www.usfsa.org/content/Identifying%20Jumps.pdf

Neither can the USFS itself. Darn, I guess we are all stupid.

ETA- I get what you are trying to say, but the term 'cheated' has been around forever in the sport and it is not in any way inclusive to the board or to the skater. It comes from the foot turning on the ice rather than the skater just falling down, which is in fact deceiving a solid run-out and landing. I've even heard skaters say they need to work on their cheated jumps.

I’m old school, and when referring to a jump, the word “cheated” is a well known and often used term within the skating world. It is an adjective and not a verb. However, upon realizing that it confused people, I simply starting using “under rotated”.